Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

Clare73 · Jun 1, 2013

brinny said:
In reading the entire Word of God it becomes clear Who our God is, and that He is inexplicably merciful and that is why Jesus Christ took our place in absorbing our sins and God's wrath on the cross. God IS righteous and just and holy, as indicated by this verse, which highlights the fierce-ness of the holy-ness of God and His to-be-avoided wrath. For it is surely what we face without being covered by Jesus Christ's righteousness.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

Yes, God's justice requires punishment for law breaking, just as does our justice system.

Justice is not accomplished if the penalty is not paid, just as in our justice system.

But divine justice is always accomplished, for God is loser to no man.

Jesus paid the penalty due on our sin at the Final Judgment.

Jesus didn't "fill" us with righteousness until he had first "emptied" us of defilement by paying its penalty.

Clare73 · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
Penal substitutionary atonement does not encompass both sides.

It is the word of God in Ro 3:25-26.

Clare73 · Jun 1, 2013

Eliwho said:
Not according to the constitution.

There can be no laws that violate the rights of the individual, laid out in the constitution.

Comments like yers disgrace the blood of every patriot who ever died, so you could say that.

What rights of the individual are violated in lawful arrest, which is also according to the Constitution?

Is your understanding of the Constitution setting it against itself?

Clare73 · Jun 1, 2013

Rick Otto said:
What a relief. There really will be a "happily ever after".
Yeah, Jesus sacrificed His blood, but His whole life was a sacrifice of obediance. His whole life went up on the cross with His blood. 'For the life is in the blood...' (Lev17).

You do realize you are using "life" incorrectly regarding Lev 17:11.

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

I'm wondering if the view of the OT sacrifices is that God's wrath was visited upon the sacrificed animals ? Also, if God's wrath was visited upon the lambs whose blood was used to protect the Israelites from the angel of death (in Egypt) ?

Clare73 · Jun 1, 2013

Thekla said:
I'm wondering if the view of the OT sacrifices is that God's wrath was visited upon the sacrificed animals ?

No, the notion that God's wrath was visited on Christ does not come from the Levitical sin and guilt sacrifices.

Better sources for that would be Isa 53:4-5; 1Th 1:10; Ro 5:9; Eph 2:3; Jn 3:36.

Also, if God's wrath was visited upon the lambs whose blood was used to protect the Israelites from the angel of death (in Egypt) ?

God's wrath was not visited on animals, either in Leviticus or Egypt.

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

Clare73 said:
No, the notion that God's wrath was visited on Christ does not come from the Levitical sin and guilt sacrifices.

Better sources for that would be Isa 53:4-5; 1Th 1:10; Ro 5:9; Eph 2:3; Jn 3:36.

God's wrath was not visited on animals, either in Leviticus or Egypt.

So how does the view accord with Christ as the sacrificial lamb, our passover, etc. ?

Ceridwen · Jun 1, 2013

Penal substitution is one of the correct theories of the atonement. It is not the ONLY correct theory of the atonement, but it is one of them. It is supported by Scripture, and it is believed by the redeemed.

Someone may deny that the Bible actually teaches it, but if so, they have a bigger problem than just scriptural interpretation. That bigger problem is the just punishment for sin, which shall be vented either on the sinner or Christ as substitute for people who accept this substitute.

Isaiah 53:5-6, 10 (New International Version)
He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. It was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer.

Romans 3:25-26 (New International Version)
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:22 (New International Version)
The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

Clare73 said:
No, the notion that God's wrath was visited on Christ does not come from the Levitical sin and guilt sacrifices.

Better sources for that would be Isa 53:4-5; 1Th 1:10; Ro 5:9; Eph 2:3; Jn 3:36.

God's wrath was not visited on animals, either in Leviticus or Egypt.

"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:4-5

I don't understand how this is understood to demonstrate that the wrath of God was visited on Christ, Who is God ...

Isaiah states that we (humans) esteem Him as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted". Isaiah does not demonstrate that God's wrath is visited on Jesus Christ.

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." 1 Thess 1:10

I agree; Christ's sacrifice delivered us from the wrath of God, just as the blood of the lambs spread over the lintels spared the Israelites from the angel of death.

But again, this does not speak of God's wrath poured out on Jesus Christ, the incarnate God and second person of the Holy Trinity.

The same in Romans 5:9

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Ephesians 2:3

But Paul does not call Christ a child of wrath, nor indeed was Christ given over to "the lusts of our flesh fulfilling the desires of our flesh and our mind". In fact the Scriptures testify that Christ had no sin, and all virtues.

I don't understand how you read John 3:6 in light of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice, so I won't respond to that verse.

Maybe I have misunderstood you (that God's wrath was visited on Christ instead of us) - in which case, I apologize !

The Mercy seat was the "place" of God among us in the OT, the restoration of us to God.

Christ, as our "mercy seat" was voluntarily crucified to restore us to relationship with God.
This has the effect of "holding back His wrath", but is moreso and ontological possibility/promise for us.

OpenDoor · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
Scripture tells us that Christ died to save his people from their sins. This was necessary, as explained in the book of Hebrews in the new testament.

I know you are not the OP, but from your post I am going to presume that you share a similar view.

Do you believe that Christ died in our place?

MoreCoffee · Jun 1, 2013

OpenDoor said:
I know you are not the OP, but from your post I am going to presume that you share a similar view.

Do you believe that Christ died in our place?

Christ died for our salvation and for our benefit but I do not think that his death means we will not physically die. So, no, not in our place.

OpenDoor · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
Christ died for our salvation and for our benefit but I do not think that his death means we will not physically die. So, no, not in our place.

Thats not what I meant by died in our place. You say you understand that Christ died for our salvation. How did His death accomplish this?

MoreCoffee · Jun 1, 2013

OpenDoor said:
Thats not what I meant by died in our place. You say you understand that Christ died for our salvation. How did His death accomplish this?

I do not know, I do know that scripture says that he dies for our sins. Is that not enough?

Now I should remind you, brothers and sisters, of the good news that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received, in which also you stand, through which also you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you--unless you have come to believe in vain. For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. (1 Corinthians 15:1-5)

OpenDoor · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
I do not know, I do know that scripture says that he dies for our salvation. Is that not enough?

So when you witness to someone (if you ever had) when they ask you "how did Christ death lead to my salvation?" What do you say?

MoreCoffee · Jun 1, 2013

OpenDoor said:
So when you witness to someone (if you ever had) when they ask you "how did Christ death lead to my salvation?" What do you say?

Are you trying to be insulting?

OpenDoor · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
Are you trying to be insulting?

So you would ask if they were insulting you?

The (if you ever had) is because I do not know if you ever witnessed to anyone.

Can you answer my question please.

MoreCoffee · Jun 1, 2013

OpenDoor said:
Can you answer my question please.

I do not think I want to answer your question when you wrap it in an insult.

OpenDoor · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
I do not think I want to answer your question when you wrap it in an insult.

It was not an insult...

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

"If Christ has not been raised from the dead, then we have nothing to preach and you have nothing to believe." (1 Cor 15:14)

Christ destroyed death by His crucifixion, death, and resurrection: "...was given over to die because of our sins, and was raised to life to put us right with God." (Rom 4:25)

He, as the "mercy seat" (the place of the presence of God on earth in the OT), restores us to relationship with God, so that we may become sons of God by adoption. Ie, toward an ontological change in us by the grace of God through Jesus Christ ...

MoreCoffee · Jun 1, 2013

Thekla said:
"If Christ has not been raised from the dead, then we have nothing to preach and you have nothing to believe." (1 Cor 15:14)

Christ destroyed death by His crucifixion, death, and resurrection: "...was given over to die because of our sins, and was raised to life to put us right with God." (Rom 4:25)

He, as the "mercy seat" (the place of the presence of God on earth in the OT), restores us to relationship with God, so that we may become sons of God by adoption. Ie, toward an ontological change in us by the grace of God through Jesus Christ ...

Scripture suggests a motive for Christ's passion in these words:

When we were still helpless, at the appointed time, Christ died for the godless. You could hardly find anyone ready to die even for someone upright; though it is just possible that, for a really good person, someone might undertake to die. So it is proof of God's own love for us, that Christ died for us while we were still sinners. (Romans 5:6-8)

Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

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