Why the bible?

[SkyWriting]

So... you just WANT to have a religion. You don't care if it's accurate. You just want to believe something that makes you feel special.

It's not only accurate, but without error.

 

[Senator Cheese]

Not necesserally;
In a situation where neutrality is very difficult, or where all partie have very much to win AND the means of controlling what is printed, later studies might be more reliable.
I mean, in your example of the WW II books, both the NAZIs and the Allied Forces had to keep the moral high, while not releasing information usefull for the enemy. When the fights are over, and when there is nothing to win in distorting the truth, a more accurate version is possible (and this indeed might be decades after the facts).
Now, I'm not saying thet the quran is more reliable than the bible (or the other way round). I'm just pointing out that your argument doesn't apply to all situations.

Except that there was no feasable reason as to why the evangelists would have lied, knowing God's wrath if they were to deceive his message.

 

[Strathos]

Except that there was no feasable reason as to why the evangelists would have lied, knowing God's wrath if they were to deceive his message.

True. And it's not like you can say everything in the Bible was just propaganda and the Koran is the "unbiased, non-propaganda" version, because the agenda and message remains essentially the same (glorify God).

 

[lesliedellow]

Except that there was no feasable reason as to why the evangelists would have lied, knowing God's wrath if they were to deceive his message.

In any case, to announce yourself a follower of somebody the Romans had executed as a criminal, would not be the smartest career move it was possible to make.

 

[Syd the Human]

Except that there was no feasable reason as to why the evangelists would have lied, knowing God's wrath if they were to deceive his message.

Some religious people view it as "holy lying" or "lying for Jesus", by lying in order to serve their god they think that their god will overlook it.

 

[lesliedellow]

Some religious people view it as "holy lying" or "lying for Jesus", by lying in order to serve their god they think that their god will overlook it.

If they claimed Jesus was divine, whilst believing he was no such thing, that would be blasphemy, and there is no way they could have imagined that to be something God would either sanction or overlook. In first century Palestine, blasphemy was a capital offence.

 

[PsychoSarah]

If they claimed Jesus was divine, whilst believing he was no such thing, that would be blasphemy, and there is no way they could have imagined that to be something God would either sanction or overlook. In first century Palestine, blasphemy was a capital offence.

They probably were concerned that the cycle of Yahweh (YHWH) punishing the Israelites would start up again.

 

[Senator Cheese]

Some religious people view it as "holy lying" or "lying for Jesus", by lying in order to serve their god they think that their god will overlook it.

So this is your argumentation?

A) There was no divine story because there was no God and it's all made up.
B) The evangelists lied, knowing that they would be persecuted to death.
C) The evangelists obviously lied to receive blessings from the God that they fabricated and made up in (A).

 

[lesliedellow]

They probably were concerned that the cycle of Yahweh (YHWH) punishing the Israelites would start up again.

I don't see how that relates to my post. They could hardly have imagined blasphemy to be an effective method of forestalling God's wrath.

 

[Syd the Human]

If they claimed Jesus was divine, whilst believing he was no such thing, that would be blasphemy, and there is no way they could have imagined that to be something God would either sanction or overlook. In first century Palestine, blasphemy was a capital offence.

Believe it or not, people have and do do that. Regardless of what is being talked about in religion, if a person think that a lie will help their religion and think that their god will overlook it, they will do so.


Plus, just so you know, in first century Palestine they would not punish you for your thoughts unless you said them out loud or acted upon them.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I don't see how that relates to my post. They could hardly have imagined blasphemy to be an effective method of forestalling God's wrath.

Punishing blasphemy.

 

[lesliedellow]

Believe it or not, people have and do do that. Regardless of what is being talked about in religion, if a person think that a lie will help their religion and think that their god will overlook it, they will do so.

Their religion was Judaism, they were strict monotheists, and there is no way they could imagine that claiming a human being to be divine would have any effect except to bring divine retribution upon themselves.

Unless, of course, they had some reason to believe that that extraordinary claim was true, in which case they wouldn't have been lying.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Their religion was Judaism, they were strict monotheists, and there is no way they could imagine that claiming a human being to be divine would have any effect except to bring divine retribution upon themselves.

Unless, of course, they had some reason to believe that that extraordinary claim was true, in which case they wouldn't have been lying.

The god of the Old Testament didn't hesitate on the punishment. They had reason to be scared.

 

[Senator Cheese]

The god of the Old Testament didn't hesitate on the punishment. They had reason to be scared.

Maybe it's because I'm tired or due to my lack of English skills, but are you agreeing or disagreeing with leslie?
Because it sounds a lot like you're agreeing with him?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Maybe it's because I'm tired or due to my lack of English skills, but are you agreeing or disagreeing with leslie?
Because it sounds a lot like you're agreeing with him?

Ambivalent agreeing

 

[lesliedellow]

Maybe it's because I'm tired or due to my lack of English skills, but are you agreeing or disagreeing with leslie?
Because it sounds a lot like you're agreeing with him?

Nothing wrong with your English skills. Taken at face value, PsychoSarah is agreeing with me, although I doubt if that was her intent.

 

[Syd the Human]

Their religion was Judaism, they were strict monotheists, and there is no way they could imagine that claiming a human being to be divine would have any effect except to bring divine retribution upon themselves.

Unless, of course, they had some reason to believe that that extraordinary claim was true, in which case they wouldn't have been lying.

Christians, also monotheists, lie in order to promote their god. Most Christians accept the trinity, so to promote Jesus is also promoting god. If they were taught the trinity, then it would not really be any different. Unless they honestly did not think that Jesus was the son of god and part of the trinity, but thought he was a pretty cool guy.

I am simply saying that they could have lied in order to promote the new direction that Judaism was going in.

 

[lesliedellow]

Christians, also monotheists, lie in order to promote their god. Most Christians accept the trinity, so to promote Jesus is also promoting god. If they were taught the trinity, then it would not really be any different. Unless they honestly did not think that Jesus was the son of god and part of the trinity, but thought he was a pretty cool guy.

I am simply saying that they could have lied in order to promote the new direction that Judaism was going in.

Lying might be a questionable thing to do, but it is not blasphemy.

An equivalent thing today would be for a group of Christians to claim that Pat Robertson was God Incarnate. Unless they had witnessed him raising the dead, or performing some other equally extraordinary feat, they would have no reason to claim it, and still less to believe it.

 

[Senator Cheese]

Christians, also monotheists, lie in order to promote their god.

Unsubstantiated and diffamatory claim.

Most Christians accept the trinity, so to promote Jesus is also promoting god.

Yes.

If they were taught the trinity, then it would not really be any different. Unless they honestly did not think that Jesus was the son of god and part of the trinity, but thought he was a pretty cool guy.

And if they did not think he was part of the trinity, then they were committing blasphemy and as such would fear not only the wrath of the Romans/Jews, but the wrath of God as well.

I am simply saying that they could have lied in order to promote the new direction that Judaism was going in.

Again, your arguments boil down to:

A) There was no divine story.
B) They lied, even though they knew they'd likely die for it.
C) They lied in order to appease the God that didn't exist as per (A).

or

A) There was a God, but he wasn't Jesus.
B) They still lied, even though they knew they'd likely die for it.
C) They even lied although they knew God would smite them down for it also.


Even in Crazyland, this just doesn't make sense.

 

[Syd the Human]

Unsubstantiated and diffamatory claim.



Yes.



And if they did not think he was part of the trinity, then they were committing blasphemy and as such would fear not only the wrath of the Romans/Jews, but the wrath of God as well.



Again, your arguments boil down to:

A) There was no divine story.
B) They lied, even though they knew they'd likely die for it.
C) They lied in order to appease the God that didn't exist as per (A).

or

A) There was a God, but he wasn't Jesus.
B) They still lied, even though they knew they'd likely die for it.
C) They even lied although they knew God would smite them down for it also.


Even in Crazyland, this just doesn't make sense.

I was simply stating that a religious person is capable of lying, even in Crazyland that is possible.

Even religious people, are capable of going back on their own ideals if they feel it will get what they feel is the best decision.

Once a person becomes a Christian or Jew or whatever, they do not instantaneously become perfect. Even your religion says so, unless you are into the once saved always saved idea. Why you are suddenly excluding them makes no sense.