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Why the bible?

Paul of Eugene OR

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This thread is a follow up on a post I made in another thread. Apparantly it caused a bit of a stir and since we were going very off topic, I decided this topic deserved its own thread.

The topic came up after I saw EternalDragon mention that he read the quran.
I asked him what it is about the bible that gives it more credibility then the quran. Or what it is about the quran that gives it less credibility then the bible.

Several people answered and all I got as answers were as fallacious as it gets.
The most recuring fallacious themes here were confirmation bias, double standards and circular reasoning.

Consider this simplistic example... If I ask you why you believe 2+2 equals 4 and not 5... then answering "because I already believe it is 4" is not a valid answer.

That doesn't tell me why it's more rational to believe it's 4 rather then 5. I require an actual argument, a demonstration,...something...anything.

Not a priori nonsense or other fallacies.

Likewise, when receiving answers to my question of quran credibility vs bible credibility, they could be summarized as "The bible has more credibility because I believe it". Which is, off course, fallacious nonsense.

So, in the hope of getting an actual reasoned answer, I'll ask again to the entire forum:

What is it about the bible that gives it more credibility then the quran?
Why do you believe the bible and not the quran?

Try to be intellectually honest about this.
Refrain from answers that employ:
- confirmation bias (= "because I already believe the bible" or judging the quran through bible-believing goggles)
- circular reasoning (= "the bible is true because god says so in the bible and god exists because the bible says so.... in the bible).
- double standards (= judging jesus going by bible descriptions of him while judging mohammed by non-quranic descriptions of him)


If you want help on how to go about this...
Take a step back and view it objectively. Forget for a second that you are a christian and lay the books side by side and ask yourself how you will decide which one is more plausible, more credible.

Go at it without any preconceived beliefs, notions, whatever.
Leave emotions out of it.

How can I, as a hypothetical person who has first contact with both stories, conclude which one I should be believing?

Looking forward to your answers,
Dogma.

The Bible is claimed to be God's revelation of Himself to us all. I suggest that in order to authenticate that claim you pray and ask God to share with you what He wants you to believe about the Bible. Pray and be patient, wait until God actually responds, which may be some time, as a test to see if you are sincere.
 
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Davian

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Which see? As I don't speak latin, I had to look that up.

In my part of the world, "Computer hardware refers to the physical parts or components of a computer such as the monitor, mouse, keyboard, computer data storage, hard drive disk (HDD), system unit (graphic cards, sound cards, memory, motherboard and chips), etc. all of which are physical objects that can be touched."

Computer hardware - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You will have to tell me about this computer you put together from those basic elements on the periodic table.
 
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AV1611VET

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What happened to your age display? The big six-oh getting you down?
LOL

Not quite.

I cut down on some of my displays, so CF would load faster.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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:doh:

So is the quran. More so then the bible even...

Well, that is why you need to pray and find the guidance of God in making your choices. In any case, even if you select the correct holy book, it will not do you any spiritual good unless you are open to God guiding your understanding as you read it.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Well, that is why you need to pray and find the guidance of God in making your choices. In any case, even if you select the correct holy book, it will not do you any spiritual good unless you are open to God guiding your understanding as you read it.


Praying to a god would require me to believe that that god exists first. Which makes no sense.

What I ask in this thread is basically for a logically valid method to select the correct book, if there is one, without having to believe the book before selecting it.

Your proposed method is backwards and thus invalid.
I need a method to determine which book is correct. So i can apply said method and THEN make an informed decision. Instead of an a priori arbitrary choice and hope to be right, like you seem to be suggesting...
 
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Heissonear

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:doh:

So is the quran. More so then the bible even...

.

Paul gave a few goods points to carefully consider. Items to open your comprehension towards if the Bible is the Word of God.

Why did you push the honest advice to the side and state about the Quran?

Why are you wanting to continue in confusion?

.
 
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BL2KTN

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Heisonnear said:
Paul gave a few goods points to carefully consider. Items to open your comprehension towards if the Bible is the Word of God.

Paul also misquoted the Hebrew bible like crazy (even purposefully).

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive"
(1 Cor. 15:22)

versus

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin"
(Deut. 24:16)

_____-

"...God alone has immortality...whom no man has ever seen or can see"
(1 Tim. 6:16)

versus

"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel; for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved"
(Gen. 32:30),

"And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend"
(Ex. 33:11),

"...I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up...."
(Isa. 6:1),

"...for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts"
 
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Heissonear

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Praying to a god would require me to believe that that god exists first. Which makes no sense.

What I ask in this thread is basically for a logically valid method to select the correct book, if there is one, without having to believe the book before selecting it.

Your proposed method is backwards and thus invalid.
I need a method to determine which book is correct. So i can apply said method and THEN make an informed decision. Instead of an a priori arbitrary choice and hope to be right, like you seem to be suggesting...

.

False.

What you state is not true. I did not know the the Bible was the Word of God while growing up a Naturalist and while getting a geology degree. How did it change? There was no priori.

You are confused about "needing to believe it first" premise to know if it is from God.

.
 
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DogmaHunter

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.

False.

What you state is not true. I did not know the the Bible was the Word of God while growing up a Naturalist and while getting a geology degree. How did it change? There was no priori.

Que?

I'm not talking about and your "miracles". I'm talking about me, who hasn't witnessed any miracles and has no reason to believe others who say they have.

You are confused about "needing to believe it first" premise to know if it is from God.

I'm responding to a point that was made. I have no problems with people joining an argument, but at least take the trouble to read what the argued point is.
 
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DogmaHunter

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.Paul gave a few goods points to carefully consider. Items to open your comprehension towards if the Bible is the Word of God.

Why did you push the honest advice to the side and state about the Quran?
Why are you wanting to continue in confusion?

I'm just trying to find out if any of the people here can provide a rational explanation for why someone should believe the bible over the quran.

I also stated the anticipated fallacious reasoning in the defensive arguments.
+30 pages and funnily enough, I seem to have been bang on in my predictions.

By the way, Muhammed gave a few good points as well. Well, at least that's what muslims tell me.
 
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SkyWriting

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I'm just trying to find out if any of the people here can provide a rational explanation for why someone should believe the bible over the quran.

Perhaps I can help you out.




SECTION I. THE BIBLE-I TRUST IT
Chapter 1: The Uniqueness of the Bible
An intelligent person who is seeking truth would certainly read and consider a book that has the historical qualifications of the Bible. These unique qualifications separate the Scriptures from any book that has ever been written.

Chapter 2: How Was the Bible Prepared?
What materials were used? When did chapter and verse divisions come about? Why is the Bible divided the way it is?

Chapter 3: The Canon
Why do we have just 39 Old Testament books and 27 New Testament books? What about the Apocrypha? Why are the other books not included in the Bible?

Chapter 4: The Reliability of the Bible

Part 1 - Confirmation of the Historical Text

The accusation that the Old and New Testaments are not reliable is dealt with here. Several tests for the reliability and accuracy of a piece of literature are outlined; these tests are applied to the Scriptures and then a comparison is made between the historicity of the Bible and classical literature. The logical conclusion based upon evidence is that if one rejects the Bible as being reliable, then, if he is consistent and uses the same tests, he must throw out all classical literature and disregard their historical testimony.

Part 2 - Confirmation by Archaeology
The trustworthiness of Scripture is confirmed by specific, documented, archaeological discoveries. Testimonies are given of skeptics who have had their attitudes toward the Bible radically changed as a result of archaeological investigation.

SECTION II. THE ACADEMY AWARDS-IF JESUS WAS NOT GOD, THEN HE DESERVED AN OSCAR
Chapter 5: Jesus-A Man of History
Chapter 6: Jesus-GOD's Son -An explanation of the character of Christ and His claims to deity, with an emphasis on secular and Jewish sources.
Chapter 7: The Trilemma-LORD, Liar or Lunatic? -This section deals with who Jesus was and rules out the possible conclusion that He was just a good man or great prophet.
Chapter 8: The Great Proposition - The use of the "if...then" argument is applied to Christ. In other words, "If GOD became man, then what would He be like?" or "Did Jesus possess the characteristics of GOD?" Incorporates many quotations and observations of great men, Christians and non-Christians, about the person, character, life and death of Jesus of Nazareth and His impact on the world for 2,000 years.
Chapter 9: The Messianic Prophecies of the Old Testament Fulfilled in Jesus Christ - This section contains several illustrations of the probabilities that all these prophecies could be fulfilled in one man to answer the critic who says, "It is all just a coincidence." There is a great emphasis on Jewish sources confirming these predictions as being Messianic to answer the accusation, "That's the way you Christians look at them, but what about the Jews?"
Chapter 10: The Resurrection - Hoax or History? - This heavily documented section treats the proper historical approach to the resurrection, the positive evidence for it and a refutation of each theory set forth to explain away the miracle of the historical event of the resurrection of Christ.

SECTION III. GOD AT WORK IN HISTORY AND HUMAN LIVES
Chapter 11: Prophecy Fulfilled in History - This unique section deals with one of the great proofs that there is a living GOD behind the Bible and history. Twelve prophecies are dealt with in detail. There is a listing of the prophecies, their dating, historical background, and an outlining of the historical fulfillment of each prediction.

Chapter 12: The Uniqueness of the Christian Experience - So often the Christian negates the authority of a transformed life as evidence of Christ's reality because it is a subjective experience or argument. This section shows that it is supported by an objective reality - the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Perhaps I can help you out.




SECTION I. THE BIBLE-I TRUST IT
Chapter 1: The Uniqueness of the Bible
An intelligent person who is seeking truth would certainly read and consider a book that has the historical qualifications of the Bible. These unique qualifications separate the Scriptures from any book that has ever been written.

Chapter 2: How Was the Bible Prepared?
What materials were used? When did chapter and verse divisions come about? Why is the Bible divided the way it is?

Chapter 3: The Canon
Why do we have just 39 Old Testament books and 27 New Testament books? What about the Apocrypha? Why are the other books not included in the Bible?

Chapter 4: The Reliability of the Bible

Part 1 - Confirmation of the Historical Text

The accusation that the Old and New Testaments are not reliable is dealt with here. Several tests for the reliability and accuracy of a piece of literature are outlined; these tests are applied to the Scriptures and then a comparison is made between the historicity of the Bible and classical literature. The logical conclusion based upon evidence is that if one rejects the Bible as being reliable, then, if he is consistent and uses the same tests, he must throw out all classical literature and disregard their historical testimony.

Part 2 - Confirmation by Archaeology
The trustworthiness of Scripture is confirmed by specific, documented, archaeological discoveries. Testimonies are given of skeptics who have had their attitudes toward the Bible radically changed as a result of archaeological investigation.

SECTION II. THE ACADEMY AWARDS-IF JESUS WAS NOT GOD, THEN HE DESERVED AN OSCAR
Chapter 5: Jesus-A Man of History
Chapter 6: Jesus-GOD's Son -An explanation of the character of Christ and His claims to deity, with an emphasis on secular and Jewish sources.
Chapter 7: The Trilemma-LORD, Liar or Lunatic? -This section deals with who Jesus was and rules out the possible conclusion that He was just a good man or great prophet.
Chapter 8: The Great Proposition - The use of the "if...then" argument is applied to Christ. In other words, "If GOD became man, then what would He be like?" or "Did Jesus possess the characteristics of GOD?" Incorporates many quotations and observations of great men, Christians and non-Christians, about the person, character, life and death of Jesus of Nazareth and His impact on the world for 2,000 years.
Chapter 9: The Messianic Prophecies of the Old Testament Fulfilled in Jesus Christ - This section contains several illustrations of the probabilities that all these prophecies could be fulfilled in one man to answer the critic who says, "It is all just a coincidence." There is a great emphasis on Jewish sources confirming these predictions as being Messianic to answer the accusation, "That's the way you Christians look at them, but what about the Jews?"
Chapter 10: The Resurrection - Hoax or History? - This heavily documented section treats the proper historical approach to the resurrection, the positive evidence for it and a refutation of each theory set forth to explain away the miracle of the historical event of the resurrection of Christ.

SECTION III. GOD AT WORK IN HISTORY AND HUMAN LIVES
Chapter 11: Prophecy Fulfilled in History - This unique section deals with one of the great proofs that there is a living GOD behind the Bible and history. Twelve prophecies are dealt with in detail. There is a listing of the prophecies, their dating, historical background, and an outlining of the historical fulfillment of each prediction.

Chapter 12: The Uniqueness of the Christian Experience - So often the Christian negates the authority of a transformed life as evidence of Christ's reality because it is a subjective experience or argument. This section shows that it is supported by an objective reality - the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You should read my opening post.

dogmahunter said:
Refrain from answers that employ:
- confirmation bias (= "because I already believe the bible" or judging the quran through bible-believing goggles)
- circular reasoning (= "the bible is true because god says so in the bible and god exists because the bible says so.... in the bible).

- double standards (= judging jesus going by bible descriptions of him while judging mohammed by non-quranic descriptions of him)

Chapter 1: the bible is as unique as any other religious scripture.
Chapter 2: genetic fallacy?
Chapter 3: Why does it matter?
Chapter 4: I can find things in every religious scripture that are correct. Even in Marvel comics. That doesn't mean all of it is correct. One thing that is universally unsupported: the supernatural claims
Chapter 5: Muhammed, a man of history (with, unlike jesus, actual independent and contemporary confirmation that he existed)
Chapter 6 to 10: See my bolded quote
Chapter 11: just like the quran (as muslims always tell me). I agree with neither.
Chapter 12: yeah... just like in any other religion. You think people who convert to Islam don't experience life altering emotions etc? Think again.

You didn't give me a valid reason to believe the bible over the quran.
In fact, you didn't even mention the quran. You just preached your religion. In rather fallacious ways.
 
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SkyWriting

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You should read my opening post.



Chapter 1: the bible is as unique as any other religious scripture.
Chapter 2: genetic fallacy?
Chapter 3: Why does it matter?
Chapter 4: I can find things in every religious scripture that are correct. Even in Marvel comics. That doesn't mean all of it is correct. One thing that is universally unsupported: the supernatural claims
Chapter 5: Muhammed, a man of history (with, unlike jesus, actual independent and contemporary confirmation that he existed)
Chapter 6 to 10: See my bolded quote
Chapter 11: just like the quran (as muslims always tell me). I agree with neither.
Chapter 12: yeah... just like in any other religion. You think people who convert to Islam don't experience life altering emotions etc? Think again.

You didn't give me a valid reason to believe the bible over the quran.
In fact, you didn't even mention the quran. You just preached your religion. In rather fallacious ways.

You didn't match or support any of the Quran against my support of the Bible.
And as such you have no basis for not considering yourself Dogmatic.
 
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