Why The Attack.....

[Henaynei]

Consensus has been rare on this forum, and the opening up of the forum to anti-missionaries set a terrible tone about 5 months ago- and house cleaning was done to rectify that. Now, because there are so few Christians (Messianics are supposed to be Christians first, as this forum is in the Christian- Nicene, Trinitarian section of the board) posting the forum doesn't really look as it should. A close friend of mine calls this forum "The Church bashing forum". Apparently, it would be better if more Messianics were interested- and I agree. As it stands, there are few here.

please define Messianic... as used in the above context...

Well, timely question.

One can call themselves whatever they like in the outside world. As far as I know, some of the posters here still live in free countries.

However, this forum is another thing altogether. This forum requires a working definition that is compatible with the forum purpose, emphasis and mission.

If you look up to the top of the screen, you'll notice that this forum fits under other categories. If you go through the categories, you'll notice that this is an orthodox Christian forum, that is, it is first and foremost Trinitarian and Nicene, and lastly Messianic. It comes under the fellowship of the whole Church and as a member of such it should embrace and welcome that fellowship. This is why Church-bashing is not allowed (but for some reason, tolerated). This is a Nicene forum.

Therefore, for the purposes of this forum, a Messianic should be first of all Trinitarian and Nicene. The Messianic bit is open to discussion, but the Trinitarian and Nicene bit is not.

Personal opinions about what makes one a Messianic don't matter as much. We have both One Law types and mainstream MJ types too. However, there is room to move in the personal opinion about being Messianic part, as opposed to the Christian part, which is not optional. For example, I believe that a true Messianic is a Jewish person who has found Yeshua as Messiah- eg. me and christianmom, among a few others. I think others interested in the Hebrew root and trying to live that way are merely borrowing the term with our reluctant permission, although some do so very well and with great sincerity. They attend Messianic Gentile congregations, and that's fine. However, my mere opinion does not matter, nor do I want it to. I like things the way they are for the purposes of this forum. This should be the attitude of anyone posting here. Have your opinion, but remember CF and the greater good first.

This is why as a forum, some time ago, it was agreed on certain criteria about who can have a Torah Scroll as an icon and who can't. It was a wise discussion, and there is still tons of room for variety, diversity and fellowship. Christians who are Jewish and still practice their Torah observances are also allowed.

What we have a problem with these days is not about who is Messianic and who isn't- it's about what role those who are non-Christians (as defined for the purposes of the forum only) have here. That's all.

perhaps your meaning would be more accurately communicated then if you had said Nicean or Trinitarian Messianics as opposed to blanketedly (made up word, you get my meaning) using Messianic to exclude the Messianic Non-Trins .... no?

btw -one can be a Nicean Messianic and still have deep and definite objections to many "church" things .... from the "sacraments" to the "festivals" to modes of worship ... and I doubt this is the only forum in CO that has such for many of such views expressed here were learned in Christian denominations ....

 

[Vaneeza Malkah]

Well, timely question.

One can call themselves whatever they like in the outside world. As far as I know, some of the posters here still live in free countries.

However, this forum is another thing altogether. This forum requires a working definition that is compatible with the forum purpose, emphasis and mission.

If you look up to the top of the screen, you'll notice that this forum fits under other categories. If you go through the categories, you'll notice that this is an orthodox Christian forum, that is, it is first and foremost Trinitarian and Nicene, and lastly Messianic. It comes under the fellowship of the whole Church and as a member of such it should embrace and welcome that fellowship. This is why Church-bashing is not allowed (but for some reason, tolerated). This is a Nicene forum.

Therefore, for the purposes of this forum, a Messianic should be first of all Trinitarian and Nicene. The Messianic bit is open to discussion, but the Trinitarian and Nicene bit is not.

Personal opinions about what makes one a Messianic don't matter as much. We have both One Law types and mainstream MJ types too. However, there is room to move in the personal opinion about being Messianic part, as opposed to the Christian part, which is not optional. For example, I believe that a true Messianic is a Jewish person who has found Yeshua as Messiah- eg. me and christianmom, among a few others. I think others interested in the Hebrew root and trying to live that way are merely borrowing the term with our reluctant permission, although some do so very well and with great sincerity. They attend Messianic Gentile congregations, and that's fine. However, my mere opinion does not matter, nor do I want it to. I like things the way they are for the purposes of this forum. This should be the attitude of anyone posting here. Have your opinion, but remember CF and the greater good first.

This is why as a forum, some time ago, it was agreed on certain criteria about who can have a Torah Scroll as an icon and who can't. It was a wise discussion, and there is still tons of room for variety, diversity and fellowship. Christians who are Jewish and still practice their Torah observances are also allowed.

What we have a problem with these days is not about who is Messianic and who isn't- it's about what role those who are non-Christians (as defined for the purposes of the forum only) have here. That's all.

there are many non-mesianic judaism christian people who believe that the trinity is a non-essential doctrine, along with the creed of nicea, in-spite of their belief in it. (I guess to them scripture comes first, not manmade doctrine) I believe it must be coming from some protestant church groups, but I think because we messianics who are non-trinitarian, non-nicene believe Yeshua to be the one true messiah, there are many christians who stand by our right to be here.

 

[cyberlizard]

i have just read all the posts in this thread and it has taken the best part of half an hour.

over the last two pages, the thread has moved from a sort of discussing easter, to the trinity, the creedal system, and is now slowly moving on to what is a MJ and what does and does not constitute MJism.

Just recently there has been a glut of people posting who just seem to want to argue for the sake of argument. This practice neither glorifies man nor G-d.

maybe now is the time for the thread to end.....


Steve

 

[ContraMundum]

perhaps your meaning would be more accurately communicated then if you had said Nicean or Trinitarian Messianics as opposed to blanketedly (made up word, you get my meaning) using Messianic to exclude the Messianic Non-Trins .... no?

Fair call.

btw -one can be a Nicean Messianic and still have deep and definite objections to many "church" things .... from the "sacraments" to the "festivals" to modes of worship ... and I doubt this is the only forum in CO that has such for many of such views expressed here were learned in Christian denominations ....

True.

 

[ContraMundum]

there are many non-mesianic judaism christian people who believe that the trinity is a non-essential doctrine, along with the creed of nicea, in-spite of their belief in it. (I guess to them scripture comes first, not manmade doctrine) I believe it must be coming from some protestant church groups, but I think because we messianics who are non-trinitarian, non-nicene believe Yeshua to be the one true messiah, there are many christians who stand by our right to be here.

Don't forget- I'm one of the ones who fought to keep non-Trins posting here.

Nevertheless, your point is taken.

 

[ContraMundum]

i have just read all the posts in this thread and it has taken the best part of half an hour.

over the last two pages, the thread has moved from a sort of discussing easter, to the trinity, the creedal system, and is now slowly moving on to what is a MJ and what does and does not constitute MJism.

Just recently there has been a glut of people posting who just seem to want to argue for the sake of argument. This practice neither glorifies man nor G-d.

maybe now is the time for the thread to end.....


Steve

G'day Steve-o.

Most threads across the broad spectrum of forums on this site often end up discussing the same old topics over and over. Don't let it get to you.

 

[Ivy]

attempts like those of Stuart Dauermann to take a firm and scriptural stand for a mature and *JEWISH* Messianic body are met with silence, shouted down or muffled into near oblivion by those who want messy-antic "Judaism", or, are so weary and have lost heart so much that they have given up the good fight and are unable to provide encouragement and support...

no one is demanding gentiles keep Torah, scripture strongly mitigates against such pressure.... BUT, and again I say BUT, IF a gentile comes into the MJ community they should recognize that they MUST leave and cleave ... as did Ruth....

but most want to demand sharing in the harvest but then also demand the "right" to bring their own traditions (by implication better and more correct) from Christianity with them and that they be incorporated and honored in equality in the Jewish "household" in which they have been welcomed....

I don't demand this right in the congregation where I serve. I've attended this congregation for the last nearly fourteen years and have given sacrificially of my time, energy, and money.......for the express purpose that Jewish believers who want Jewish space--the way THEY define that, not me or any other Gentile--will have that opportunity.

When I want to sing "What a Friend We Have in Jesus," I go to church, period. I have no expectation that these expressions be brought into Jewish space, none. I am there as a servant and support, nothing else.

***However, MF forum is another matter, WHILE it is filed under the category "Christian Faith." ***

I, as a Christian have something to say about Christian faith, and how it is being represented, and typically villified at times, especially when that's being done by other Gentiles. I am within my rights and responsbility to speak up about that.

When this forum is no longer under the category "Christian Faith," then I won't consider it in our/Christian turf, and I'll stop griping about these people. They make me sick.The fact is, they're guests in Christian space, and they're pretty ungracious and rude ones at that.

 

[Vaneeza Malkah]

When this forum is no longer under the category "Christian Faith," then I won't consider it in our/Christian turf, and I'll stop griping about these people. They make me sick.The fact is, they're guests in Christian space, and they're pretty ungracious and rude ones at that.

And you are so certain that our forum is ungracious and rude? Why don't you spend a few weeks in the other christian forums? Maybe discuss the Jewish believer's right to keep the Torah? Or discuss anything Jewish for that matter. How about the protestant christian girl who wanted to tattoo YHVH on her body? Or the Jewish people's right to their homeland? Maybe you will come across christians who are 'jews' until you find out that they believe in replacement theology. Sorry, I am not ashamed at all when my fellow Jews and Gers defend our faith against others who want to de-legitimize our beliefs and practices.

 

[johnd]

But if I may toss something out there for you to consider...

Sometimes what is being said is not replacement theology. You are correct and there is not doubt that there are goyum assemblies which consider their pagan-riddled theology as the New Covenant and on that basis they as believers in that covenant replace the Jews... and some even consider themselves Jewish.

But what I point out to both Jew and Gentile is that the Olive Tree (House of Israel) has never changed. The covenants have changed (Jeremiah 31:31-34). But the criteria has always been about belief and faith, not nationality or heritage.

I believe I recall the question of Ishmael and Isaac. Let me go one further, Esau and Jacob. Ishmael was a failed attempt to help God along (a bad plan hatched by Abram and Sarai) akin to the first monarchy over Israel... the scepter was to come from Judah not Benjamin. But anyway, I digress. What was the distinguishing factor between Jacob and Esau? They were twins.

Esau cared not for spiritual things and Jacob did.

So, it is not as though the word of God has been broken by the unbelieving being counted as Jews / All Israel / the Israel of God...

for those not all who are born Jewish (Israel) are Jewish (Israel) in the sense of spiritual matters and faith.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

This is not about replacement but rather faith versus non faith. And the spiritual house God has been building all along is Israel. There is a spirit Israel and a physical Israel.

Physical Israel can come to faith in Messiah and be counted Spirit Israel. Or if they in unbelief were cut off from Spirit Israel, they can be grafted back in. But the fact that their unbelief can get them cut off from this the Olive Tree and others (gentiles) can be grafted onto the Olive Tree does not constitute replacement theology.

For one thing, Spirit Israel is not entitled to the land grant promises Physical Israel is... in belief or unbelief, Eretz is their heritage!

Being Spirit Israel is not their heritage. They must have faith. This has always been true.

 

[stone]

...on Easter?

A Messianic Jew or Gentile (not sure which) related to me that Messianics have a charge to "tear down" pagan holidays like Easter.

Is this common in Messianic circles?

There is no charge to tear down easter. We simply do not observe that time and we don't associate it with messiah because we know better than to mix the two. Rather, we observe passover.

 

[Bananna]

There is no charge to tear down easter. We simply do not observe that time and we don't associate it with messiah because we know better than to mix the two. Rather, we observe passover.

I agree,
Certainly we have no cause to judge any gentile on a Jewish standard. I don't even see how Easter is an idol. Bunnies maybe, candy maybe,

Our example should be light enough. We need to mind our own business and our own temples so to speak.

People need to learn that just like allergies, what is okay for one may not be okay for another. Just because I'm allergic to peanuts doesn't give me the right to take peanutbutter away from everyone else in the name of God.
bananna

 

[visionary]

I say let those who want to celebrate Easter, go right ahead, just recognise it has nothing to do with Christ.

 

[Bananna]

Well why do we have to say that?

I think it has to do with at least how they perceive Christ.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

For the sake of saving both non-trinitarian and trinitarians within Messianic grief for posting their version of godhead understanding and getting reported, I recommend that all trinity threads be closed from outsider input and give no outsider rights to report said thread or post. It is the outsiders that lurk and lure us into getting reported because they are taught not to think outside the box that their church teaches without calling it heresy and they come here looking to tear us apart. Before the Nicene Creed rule became back into play, we could peacefully discuss the various nuances of understanding freely and have no problems. Not so.. now. We have to protect ourselves... something must be done...

So we can mum ourselves and refuse all discussion on the subject.... or

We can mum "the outsiders" from coming in here to lurk, lure, or report us for our comments.

If anyone else has a suggestion... a solution to the problem... I would be very interested in how we can do this and keep within the new Nicene Rules.

Yeah. I have a suggestion. I think since the Nicene Creed has been restored, the rules about who can post where should be re-instated. I mean, if people are just going to lurk and bait in forums where they don't belong or don't even believe in, then the people within those forums need some kind of protection from that. I think that limiting who can go where to post would do that.

 

[Bananna]

I would hope you are not talking about me.

bah humbug

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

I would hope you are not talking about me.

bah humbug

Who? Me?

No. Nu-uh. Not at all. (just in case)

 

[SGM4HIM]

I say let those who want to celebrate Easter, go right ahead, just recognise it has nothing to do with Christ.

Vis, I live in the Bible belt and don't carry my Complete Jewish Bible in public , but would beg to differ. It has been my experience that from Episcopal to Pentecostal that the average Christian Joe recognizes the Jewish Passover theme of "[SIZE=-1]Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29 , in Easter celebration. Granted the Easter bunny and eggs are way off the mark![/SIZE]

 

[Bananna]

Vis, I live in the Bible belt and don't carry my Complete Jewish Bible in public , but would beg to differ. It has been my experience that from Episcopal to Pentecostal that the average Christian Joe recognizes the Jewish Passover theme of "[SIZE=-1]Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29 , in Easter celebration. Granted the Easter bunny and eggs are way off the mark![/SIZE]

Very true,
However in the confusion some seek to save us from Jewishness and inadvertently come here saying and doing very offensive things.

I had to really laugh when a relative asked me if I knew people were saying that Jesus was Jewish. High IQ aside, only he Holy Spirit really reveals the truths of the spiritual realm.

bananna

 

[ContraMundum]

I say let those who want to celebrate Easter, go right ahead, just recognise it has nothing to do with Christ.

If it has nothing to do with Christ, you're doing it wrong.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Well why do we have to say that?

I think it has to do with at least how they perceive Christ.

Hey, sorry I missed this one. I totally agree. It's...an error to equate Christ with Easter. The two have nothing in common.