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Why the Apocryphal Books Rejected as Scripture.

ozso

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Is that how you define the scriptures to which Sola Scriptura applies? I could not possibly agree with the exclusion of the Old Testament from consideration when doctrine and practise are to be defined.

PS: I created a thread for discussing the Scriptures. It is here, it is better suited to what you and I are currently discussing because this thread is specifically about Why the Apocryphal Books Rejected as Scripture and it a definitely Protestant perspective thread.
I should have said primarily new testament scripture is in mind when it comes to Christian doctrine and practices. The old testament comes into play as it relates to Christianity. Obviously sola scriptura of the OT isn't invoked regarding new covenant Christian doctrine and practices when it comes to old covenant Mosaic law. New covenant Christian doctrine and practices found in the OT are found in the NT as well.

What do you think is the primary reason why Protestants don't include the 7 deuterocanonical apocryphal books in the compilation known as the Old Testament?
 
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Valletta

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Even that same Church calls 7 out of 46 OT books deuterocanonical apocrypha.
When the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible all apocryphal text was rejected.
 
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ozso

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Why is that significant?
Because it denotes a segregation of the 7 from the other 39. Meaning even the Catholic church puts the 7 in a different category from the other 39, meaning even the Catholic church acknowledges that the 7 are not the same as the 39, are lesser works which is why the 7 alone are called deuterocanonical apocrypha. Deuterocanonical means secondary canon and apocrypha means biblical writings not forming part of the accepted canon of scripture; writings not considered genuine.
 
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ozso

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When the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible all apocryphal text was rejected.
Basically you're saying that the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible, all apocryphal text was rejected, except for the 7 books the Catholic Church calls The Apocrypha.

 
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Valletta

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Basically you're saying that the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible, all apocryphal text was rejected, except for the 7 books the Catholic Church calls The Apocrypha.

Most of the text Protestants removed from the Bible are referred to by Catholics as the Deuterocanonical books. To us there were 73 books and the Bible was NT and OT. I don't recall ever hearing the term "Apocrypha" for decades and then not from Catholics, it is a Protestant term, you can see that by this article which explains to Catholics what Protestants mean by "apocrypha."
 
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ozso

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Most of the text Protestants removed from the Bible are referred to by Catholics as the Deuterocanonical books. To us there were 73 books and the Bible was NT and OT. I don't recall ever hearing the term "Apocrypha" for decades and then not from Catholics, it is a Protestant term, you can see that by this article which explains to Catholics what Protestants mean by "apocrypha."
As I recall I heard a priest refer to it as "the apocrypha" when I was a child. The title of this thread also says "Apocryphal Books".

But personally I think this is a minor issue that gets blown out of proportion by both sides. I've owned bibles that contained just the 4 gospels, the 4 gospels plus Psalms and Proverbs, and just the New Testament. Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, I and II Maccabees have always been radially available for anyone to read. Many Christians probably including Catholics think Enoch should be included as well, especially since Jude referred to it. But of course even though Enoch isn't in the compendium called "the Bible", it has always been readily available for anyone to read it.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Because it denotes a segregation of the 7 from the other 39.
Yes, I see; that segregation was coined in the sixteenth century to allow Catholics and Protestants to communicate precisely about exactly the seven canonical books and the canonical parts of Esther and Daniel that Protestants exclude from those two books. It has no theological significance within Catholicism.

Deuterocanonical is a term first coined in 1566 by the converted Jew and Catholic theologian Sixtus of Siena to describe scriptural texts of the Old Testament whose canonicity was defined for Catholics by the Council of Trent, but which had been omitted from some early canons, especially in the East. Their acceptance among early Christians was not universal, but regional councils in the West published official canons that included these books as early as the fourth and fifth centuries.[1]
The deuterocanonical scriptural texts are:​
Quoted from Deuterocanonical books - New World Encyclopedia
 
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Valletta

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As I recall I heard a priest refer to it as "the apocrypha" when I was a child. The title of this thread also says "Apocryphal Books".

But personally I think this is a minor issue that gets blown out of proportion by both sides. I've owned bibles that contained just the 4 gospels, the 4 gospels plus Psalms and Proverbs, and just the New Testament. Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, I and II Maccabees have always been radially available for anyone to read. Many Christians probably including Catholics think Enoch should be included as well, especially since Jude referred to it. But of course even though Enoch isn't in the compendium called "the Bible", it has always been readily available for anyone to read it.
As I said, there were indeed apocryphal texts that were rejected. I don't know of any Catholics who thinks another book should be included--it's been the same books in the same order established by the Catholic Church back in the 300s. There are many beautiful texts, but the determination was made back then as to whether the text was God-breathed. For instance, there is a beautiful Catholic verse (For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory . . . " that some Catholics said and say after the "Our Father," but it is not God-breathed text.
 
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ozso

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Yes, I see; that segregation was coined in the sixteenth century to allow Catholics and Protestants to communicate precisely about exactly the seven canonical books and the canonical parts of Esther and Daniel that Protestants exclude from those two books. It has no theological significance within Catholicism.
Why do you think Protestants did that?
 
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ozso

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As I said, there were indeed apocryphal texts that were rejected. I don't know of any Catholics who thinks another book should be included--it's been the same books in the same order established by the Catholic Church back in the 300s. There are many beautiful texts, but the determination was made back then as to whether the text was God-breathed. For instance, there is a beautiful Catholic verse (For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory . . . " that some Catholics said and say after the "Our Father," but it is not God-breathed text.
What impact does Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, I and II Maccabees and the Daniel and Esther extensions have on Christianity?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Obviously sola scriptura of the OT isn't invoked regarding new covenant Christian doctrine and practices when it comes to old covenant Mosaic law. New covenant Christian doctrine and practices found in the OT are found in the NT as well.
My humble apologies but the above is a word salad that makes very little sense to me.
 
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Valletta

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What impact does Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, I and II Maccabees and the Daniel and Esther extensions have on Christianity?
There are some wonderful examples in those books that the Apostles taught about. Catholics believe that all of Holy Scripture is valuable. We consider it wrong to remove any God-breathed text because of new doctrine or any other reason.
 
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dzheremi

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"Apocrypha", "Deuterocanonical", etc. are all just words that some people use to try to pretend that the canon of scripture is more uniform than it ever actually has been. Witness, for instance, how the Ethiopian broader canon of 80+ books has always been much larger than the canon of their mother Church, the Coptic Orthodox Church, or how the Apocalypse of St. John was not included in the Syriac Orthodox canon until the time of Thomas of Harqel (then bishop of Mabbug/Manbij, Syria, working at the request of HH Athanasius I Gammolo) in 616 AD. These facts did not prevent these three churches from being in communion with each other, since they had and have the same faith. The same can be said about differences in the EO canon or the RC canon, such that you can find them, because those churches likewise share the same faith, whether it's a Maronite Catholic and a Latin Catholic, or a Greek Orthodox and a Georgian Orthodox, or whatever combination you can think of concerning two churches and peoples who are in communion with one another.

So debates about the number of books there are or "should be" in the canon really fall flat, if measured against what people have actually done throughout the centuries. I guess I can sort of see why they are important to a certain type of Protestant (though I do wonder what our more traditional, "high church" friends might say), since this is a major distinction to be made between them and the Roman Catholic Church in particular, but why that should mean anything to anyone else is a little less clear to me. The Bible is not a monolith, and throughout history, most Christians have been at least implicitly okay with that. I still am (but explicitly so!), and I doubt I'm the only one. It's not like it would matter if you magically got the number of books "right" if you didn't know how to interpret them properly, so maybe focusing on the number is focusing on the wrong thing.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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"Apocrypha", "Deuterocanonical", etc. are all just words that some people use to try to pretend that the canon of scripture is more uniform than it ever actually has been. Witness, for instance, how the Ethiopian broader canon of 80+ books has always been much larger than the canon of their mother Church, the Coptic Orthodox Church, or how the Apocalypse of St. John was not included in the Syriac Orthodox canon until the time of Thomas of Harqel (then bishop of Mabbug/Manbij, Syria, working at the request of HH Athanasius I Gammolo) in 616 AD. These facts did not prevent these three churches from being in communion with each other, since they had and have the same faith. The same can be said about differences in the EO canon or the RC canon, such that you can find them, because those churches likewise share the same faith, whether it's a Maronite Catholic and a Latin Catholic, or a Greek Orthodox and a Georgian Orthodox, or whatever combination you can think of concerning two churches and peoples who are in communion with one another.

So debates about the number of books there are or "should be" in the canon really fall flat, if measured against what people have actually done throughout the centuries. I guess I can sort of see why they are important to a certain type of Protestant (though I do wonder what our more traditional, "high church" friends might say), since this is a major distinction to be made between them and the Roman Catholic Church in particular, but why that should mean anything to anyone else is a little less clear to me. The Bible is not a monolith, and throughout history, most Christians have been at least implicitly okay with that. I still am (but explicitly so!), and I doubt I'm the only one. It's not like it would matter if you magically got the number of books "right" if you didn't know how to interpret them properly, so maybe focusing on the number is focusing on the wrong thing.
I agree with your summation and with the idea that canon is not as fixed as some may want to believe.
 
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ozso

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There are some wonderful examples in those books that the Apostles taught about.
Such as?
Catholics believe that all of Holy Scripture is valuable. We consider it wrong to remove any God-breathed text because of new doctrine or any other reason.
They weren't removed, they just weren't added to some bibles, just as there are bibles that leave out the entire OT except for Psalms and Proverbs. The bible isn't a book, it's a collection of books.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Well,
For great power always belonged to thee alone: and who shall resist the strength of thy arm? For the whole world before thee is as the least grain of the balance, and as a drop of the morning dew, that falleth down upon tho earth. But thou hast mercy upon all, because thou canst do all things, and overlookest the sins of men for the sake of repentance. For thou lovest all things that are, and hatest none of the things which thou hast made: for thou didst not appoint, or make any thing hating it. And how could any thing endure, if thou wouldst not? or be preserved, if not called by thee? But thou sparest all: because they are thine, O Lord, who lovest souls.
(Wisdom 11:22-27 DRB)
 
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ozso

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Well,
For great power always belonged to thee alone: and who shall resist the strength of thy arm? For the whole world before thee is as the least grain of the balance, and as a drop of the morning dew, that falleth down upon tho earth. But thou hast mercy upon all, because thou canst do all things, and overlookest the sins of men for the sake of repentance. For thou lovest all things that are, and hatest none of the things which thou hast made: for thou didst not appoint, or make any thing hating it. And how could any thing endure, if thou wouldst not? or be preserved, if not called by thee? But thou sparest all: because they are thine, O Lord, who lovest souls.
(Wisdom 11:22-27 DRB)
If you posted that saying it was from the Old Testament without naming it, I'd be really perplexed because it just isn't the same to me.
 
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