Why teach creationism in public school science classes?

SUNSTONE

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Arikay said:
"For years people said that the bible was wrong, because in the book of revelations, it said, that the elements would melt with fervant heat."

This is a common misconception of the verse. If you read the entire section, you will find that God does the melting during the end times

So, either we are as powerfull as god. Or the end times have come and gone and we werent chosen. :)

That is the end times, but it doesn't mean it could also happen sooner, as well as later.

But the fact and point is, elements can be broken down.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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SUNSTONE said:
There is evidence, you just can't prove it. Its the same with evolution.

My evidence is based on experiences of answered prayers. The wisdom I have learned through revelation.

The evidence is the body you are walking in. Take a look at your pc monitor. Did it come by chance, or was it designed?
Now what is more complicated, the human body, or a monitor?

I pray for healings, and poof they happen. Now I know you haven't seen any healings done, but if you had, wouldn't you atleast consider that evidence?

Judging by your post, it seems you are equating evolution with atheism. This is a faulty equivocation. "Proving" evolution does not disprove God. Likewise, falsifying creationism does not disprove God.

So, if you're going to argue for the existence of God, then you're in the wrong forum. Evolution has nothing to do with it.
 
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Arikay

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So we are as powerful as god?

For along time people thought the Sun revolved around the earth and used the bible as evidence. They were wrong.

I agree with Pete. :)

SUNSTONE said:
That is the end times, but it doesn't mean it could also happen sooner, as well as later.

But the fact and point is, elements can be broken down.
 
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SUNSTONE

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Pete Harcoff said:
No evidence falsifies creation. The evidence, however, falsifies certain brands of creationism. In particular, young-Earth creationism is falsified by various lines of evidence relating to the age of the Earth, biological history of the Earth, global flood (or lack thereof), etc.



There is no leap of faith. There is, however, examination of the the available evidence and choosing the most likely explanation. All evolution is, is a mechanism for the current diversity of life on Earth based on observations of life on Earth and the history that life has left us (i.e. fossil record, genetic record). You can choose to accept or reject that mechanism, but it exists based on the evidence.

When God created everything, He could have made it as old as He wanted to. When He created man, he didn't create "man child", which is exactly how they discribed caan. No He created a full grown man, and woman, both fully grown. Can you imagine God creating Eve, as a baby, and telling Adam. Ok Adam you can't touch her untill shes 18. :D

Ok your not making since, on one hand there is no leap of faith, but on the other hand you say "and choosing the most likely explanation", which is a theory. So if it isn't proven, it must take faith, to believe it. Other wise you must say, "well we don't know, but we are chasing evidence in this direction".
And that is the simple truth of evolution, and how we came about.
 
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SUNSTONE said:
There is evidence, you just can't prove it. Its the same with evolution.

The evidence is the body you are walking in. Take a look at your pc monitor. Did it come by chance, or was it designed?
Now what is more complicated, the human body, or a monitor?

what evidence... and the computer monitor is false comparison. it is a tired old fundamentally flawed argument, that is used on the ignorant who do not have the slightest clue as to how evolution works. evolution does not state "one day there was a whirlwind, and suddenly it just put all the bits together to make a fully functioning human" no, creationism does that, replacing the whirlwind with a god of course.
 
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SUNSTONE

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Pete Harcoff said:
Judging by your post, it seems you are equating evolution with atheism. This is a faulty equivocation. "Proving" evolution does not disprove God. Likewise, falsifying creationism does not disprove God.

So, if you're going to argue for the existence of God, then you're in the wrong forum. Evolution has nothing to do with it.

There is the idea/theory that evolution just happened by chance. This means, there was no creator.
And there are a great deal of people that believe/have faith in this idea.

I don't believe in evolution, atleast the we-came-from-a-fish part.
 
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SUNSTONE said:
Ok your not making since, on one hand there is no leap of faith, but on the other hand you say "and choosing the most likely explanation", which is a theory. So if it isn't proven, it must take faith, to believe it. Other wise you must say, "well we don't know, but we are chasing evidence in this direction".
And that is the simple truth of evolution, and how we came about.

It is not faith, it is intuition. you have a theory but you don't immediately believe it is true. Nor do you chase evidence in that direction, you test it to see if it is correct or not. Furthermore, the majority of hypotheses come from an analysis of experiment... you see something unusual maybe and then try to find some idea that fits it. essentially this is what happened with Quantum Mechanics; people saw things like blackbody spectra, and there was no theory to describe it (the onlly theory at the time was Kelvin's but hat led to the ultraviolet breakdown) eventually the idea of quantisation of energy was proposed, and also the same goes for the photoelectric effect, which could not be predicted either.
 
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SUNSTONE

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OneLargeToe said:
I've never heard of evidence that's unprovable!

However, evolution does have scientific evidence to back it up. Creationism of the YEC variety does not.

Prayers, visions, etc. aren't testable by science and certaintly isn't any evidence what-so-ever for creation.

I never said evidence thats unprovable. I meant that evidence doesn't mean proof. In a court of law evidence is presented all the time, but a guilty verdict is always given is it?

What do you mean prayers and visions aren't testable? If I pray for things to happen, and they happen, that is evidence. If I have a vision of the future and it happens, that is evidence.
 
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Arikay

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Can I ask you where you are getting your information about evolution?

Evolution Is Not Chance.

So far your information seems to be wrong. May I suggest asking questions about evolution to learn what it really is, so you dont continue to believe False information.

SUNSTONE said:
There is the idea/theory that evolution just happened by chance. This means, there was no creator.
And there are a great deal of people that believe/have faith in this idea.

I don't believe in evolution, atleast the we-came-from-a-fish part.
 
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SUNSTONE

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Jet Black said:
what evidence... and the computer monitor is false comparison. it is a tired old fundamentally flawed argument, that is used on the ignorant who do not have the slightest clue as to how evolution works. evolution does not state "one day there was a whirlwind, and suddenly it just put all the bits together to make a fully functioning human" no, creationism does that, replacing the whirlwind with a god of course.

I am assuming that you believe that everything came from one cell of life. If not explain to me what you believe how we came about, through evolution.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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SUNSTONE said:
When God created everything, He could have made it as old as He wanted to. When He created man, he didn't create "man child", which is exactly how they discribed caan. No He created a full grown man, and woman, both fully grown. Can you imagine God creating Eve, as a baby, and telling Adam. Ok Adam you can't touch her untill shes 18. :D

That's the old "appearence of age" argument. Yes, God could have made the Earth and universe look billions of years old. He could have made it look like life on Earth diversified from primitive organisms into the present forms today. But so what? All scientists can do is look at the Earth and tell you what it looks like. And that's all they are doing. So, if God made the Earth look 4.5 billion years old, then that's how it will look. No amount of special pleading will change that.

But the "appearence of age" argument has a pretty big theological flaw. Why would God do such a thing? Why would He do one thing, then tell people something else? Did He not think we'd eventually figure it out?

Furthermore, the "appearence of age" requires one to reject what their senses tell them. After all, how would I know the when the world was created? It could have been made last Thursday with everyone's memory intact. Maybe it's not even real. Maybe it's all a big computer simulation or dream.

You have to set an objective baseline somewhere. Science sets it on the physical universe and assumes that universe is not deceiving us. If it is, then you've got a whole other set of issues on your hand.


Ok your not making since, on one hand there is no leap of faith, but on the other hand you say "and choosing the most likely explanation", which is a theory. So if it isn't proven, it must take faith, to believe it. Other wise you must say, "well we don't know, but we are chasing evidence in this direction". And that is the simple truth of evolution, and how we came about.

I'd draw the line at religious faith and faith in scientific theories. Attempting to equivocate them puts religion on shaky ground.

Yes, in a general sense, I have "faith" in evolution. Of course, I also have "faith" that France exists, that WW2 occurred, and that this message will get posted when I click the "Submit" button. In that sense, I have faith in pretty much everything.

But, I've watered down the definition of "faith" in the process. Suddenly a "leap of faith" doesn't seem like such a great thing anymore.
 
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SUNSTONE

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Jet Black said:
It is not faith, it is intuition. you have a theory but you don't immediately believe it is true. Nor do you chase evidence in that direction, you test it to see if it is correct or not. Furthermore, the majority of hypotheses come from an analysis of experiment... you see something unusual maybe and then try to find some idea that fits it. essentially this is what happened with Quantum Mechanics; people saw things like blackbody spectra, and there was no theory to describe it (the onlly theory at the time was Kelvin's but hat led to the ultraviolet breakdown) eventually the idea of quantisation of energy was proposed, and also the same goes for the photoelectric effect, which could not be predicted either.


So in other words, you don't know for a fact if everything came about through evolution. Like everything came from one cell type idea. But science is doing studies to see if it is true or not.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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SUNSTONE said:
There is the idea/theory that evolution just happened by chance. This means, there was no creator.
And there are a great deal of people that believe/have faith in this idea.

I don't believe in evolution, atleast the we-came-from-a-fish part.

Again, evolution does not dismiss a Creator. What you are talking about is atheism, not evolution.
 
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Arikay

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To repeat the question and post:

Can I ask you where you are getting your information about evolution?

Evolution Is Not Chance.

So far your information seems to be wrong. May I suggest asking questions about evolution to learn what it really is, so you dont continue to believe False information.
 
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OneLargeToe

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SUNSTONE said:
What do you mean prayers and visions aren't testable? If I pray for things to happen, and they happen, that is evidence. If I have a vision of the future and it happens, that is evidence.

For it to be scientific evidence, it needs to be repeatible. Go ahead, go pray for something and see if it comes true. Record your results. Get witnesses. Try it again...and again..and again. Does it happen each time? If so, that's evidence. Same deal with "seeing the future."

Heck, if I were you, I'd pray to win the lotto. Or peek into the future and see what the numbers will be! :D
 
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SUNSTONE

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Pete Harcoff said:
That's the old "appearence of age" argument. Yes, God could have made the Earth and universe look billions of years old. He could have made it look like life on Earth diversified from primitive organisms into the present forms today. But so what? All scientists can do is look at the Earth and tell you what it looks like. And that's all they are doing. So, if God made the Earth look 4.5 billion years old, then that's how it will look. No amount of special pleading will change that.

But the "appearence of age" argument has a pretty big theological flaw. Why would God do such a thing? Why would He do one thing, then tell people something else? Did He not think we'd eventually figure it out?

Furthermore, the "appearence of age" requires one to reject what their senses tell them. After all, how would I know the when the world was created? It could have been made last Thursday with everyone's memory intact. Maybe it's not even real. Maybe it's all a big computer simulation or dream.

You have to set an objective baseline somewhere. Science sets it on the physical universe and assumes that universe is not deceiving us. If it is, then you've got a whole other set of issues on your hand.



I'd draw the line at religious faith and faith in scientific theories. Attempting to equivocate them puts religion on shaky ground.

Yes, in a general sense, I have "faith" in evolution. Of course, I also have "faith" that France exists, that WW2 occurred, and that this message will get posted when I click the "Submit" button. In that sense, I have faith in pretty much everything.

But, I've watered down the definition of "faith" in the process. Suddenly a "leap of faith" doesn't seem like such a great thing anymore.

That faith, is exactly how I see God. In Hebrews 11:1 it says, Now faith is for things hope for, and the EVIDENCE of things not seen.
Then it goes on to give examples of how the great men of God did the things they did, becuase they had confidence, they had faith.
 
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OneLargeToe

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Arikay said:
So far your information seems to be wrong. May I suggest asking questions about evolution to learn what it really is, so you dont continue to believe False information.

Pfft...this person has no desire to learn. His only purpose is to come here, make inane and incorrect refutations against evolution and science then run away.
 
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