Why take such a stand against homosexuality?

[Criada]

Oh, that's right. Sometimes, he does harden our hearts for greater purposes. Like he did with Moses, right? I forgot about that.

I am not sure what you mean by this.... perhaps you could clarify?

 

[psalm1:3]

Oh, that's right. Sometimes, he does harden our hearts for greater purposes. Like he did with Moses, right? I forgot about that.

I am simply opening a door way to righteous thinking and the plan that God has for our lives. To open your eyes to see the big picture. I am not forcing anything on anyone. People have the right to leave if they do not want to hear the truth. I am saying these things with love and care. Otherwise I wouldn't be on here.

 

[psalm1:3]

I am not sure what you mean by this.... perhaps you could clarify?

OOPS! I meant Pharoh. Sorry.

 

[b&wpac4]

I am simply opening a door way to righteous thinking and the plan that God has for our lives. To open your eyes to see the big picture. I am not forcing anything on anyone. People have the right to leave if they do not want to hear the truth. I am saying these things with love and care. Otherwise I wouldn't be on here.

I feel that I speak the truth as well.

Regardless, you believe that homosexual marriage in the US should be blocked because it is a sin. Do you also wish to stop religious freedom? Idolatry? Taking the Lord's name in vain?

Why attack one sin over others? Not all homosexuals are Christians, should you force your rules upon them? If so, for what purpose?

 

[Criada]

OOPS! I meant Pharoh. Sorry.

As I understand it, God hardened Pharoh's heart in order to enable the exodus of the Israelites. I am not sure how this relates to His not changing the sexuality of those homosexuals who ask Him to..

 

[b&wpac4]

As I understand it, God hardened Pharoh's heart in order to enable the exodus of the Israelites. I am not sure how this relates to His not changing the sexuality of those homosexuals who ask Him to..

Actually, God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that all the signs and wonders would be seen and all would know it was God who did it. (I'm currently reading Exodus)

 

[psalm1:3]

I feel that I speak the truth as well.

Regardless, you believe that homosexual marriage in the US should be blocked because it is a sin. Do you also wish to stop religious freedom? Idolatry? Taking the Lord's name in vain?

Why attack one sin over others? Not all homosexuals are Christians, should you force your rules upon them? If so, for what purpose?

Because I know that once we allow one sin, then others will follow. Soon, Christianity will be abolished. Like it was predicted in the bible. I do not want my children (if I will have any) to live in a world where their bible will be taken by the government. Or a world where churches will be torn down. And this is already happening. The whole world views Christianity as lame or other. We are all losing faith. How could it be that we could stray so far from our God? Our Father?

I just don't want to live in a world where me believing in Jesus is a bad thing. Because it's not. And I'm sure you can say the same about you living in a world where you want your gay freedom, and I can understand that you feel it's right.

But I cannot help how I feel. I was lost before, but now that I came back to Jesus, repented of my sins, I feel renewed. Before, I didn't have the Spirit with me. I would read the Bible and get frustrated with it because I even though I prayed for the Spirit to reveal things to me, I couldn't feel him.

But now ever since I repented, when I read the Bible, it's clear to me. And now I feel obligated to share with others what He has revealed to me, because before I was in the dark, doing things I shouldn't have done. And I truly allowed Satan to make me believe that these things I was doing was Ok. That God was a myth. But he was wrong and I knew it. So, my confusion just spiralled until I was completley unaware of what was right and what was wrong, and I confused both all the time. I had no direction.
But the bible gave me direction. The narrow path. And I say these things so that perhaps you can learn from my experience or relate to it in any way.

We don't have to live alone. We have a God who loves us. We should worship him with all our heart and soul. Look at all the blessings he has given us! There has never been anything good in our lives that has not come from Him. We are his children.

 

[Criada]

Actually, God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that all the signs and wonders would be seen and all would know it was God who did it. (I'm currently reading Exodus)

Good point
Still don't see the relevance to this discussion, though...

 

[psalm1:3]

As I understand it, God hardened Pharoh's heart in order to enable the exodus of the Israelites. I am not sure how this relates to His not changing the sexuality of those homosexuals who ask Him to..

If they ask, but continue to do commit the sin, then they are not showing perseverance to the Lord. They are showing Him that his grace is on their time, and not His. God asks that we repent to Him with all our heart and all our mind. He knows our heart. If we are not sincere, he will not answer the prayer.

 

[b&wpac4]

Because I know that once we allow one sin, then others will follow. Soon, Christianity will be abolished. Like it was predicted in the bible. I do not want my children (if I will have any) to live in a world where their bible will be taken by the government. Or a world where churches will be torn down. And this is already happening. The whole world views Christianity as lame or other. We are all losing faith. How could it be that we could stray so far from our God? Our Father?

You failed to answer my questions completely. I am seriously wondering WHY those questions are always answered with deflections. Could you read my post and try to answer the questions I asked instead of deflecting them?

 

[HaloHope]

I used to be very religious, charismatic church bah blah blah, but I was having feelings towards members of the same sex, not to women. I was becoming more and more religious and church involved and as this happened so did the feelings of self loathing, which ultimately led to what nearly was my suicide. I couldn't stand it any longer and left the church and 'came out'. Since then I have felt much better about myself and my life and no longer feel 'the unnatural one'.

I went through much the same experience when I originally started to come to terms with my sexuality, I later came back to Christianity just on a more personal level as I realised it was the people pushing me away not God (not saying thats what you'll do.. but my point is I can empathise with your position!)

Surely, if after much prayer and so on I still have these feelings towards members of the same sex, then God must have intended to be gay. However if this is true why does the church take such a stand against homosexuality and not do what all Christians should - judge. (and the hate the sin, love the sinner isn't appropriate, because if it were a sin, surely prayer would remove it).

I don't think prayer will instantly remove sins or problems, but I certainly don't believe one can "pray away the gay" as I think sexuality whatever it may be is an innate part of the vast majority of people and cannot be changed. I've prayed about my sexuality in the past, and come to the conclusion God has no issue with it, so neither should I. Personally I feel homosexuality (nor homosexual acts within certain confines) are not a sin.

So my question is this: Why take such a stand against homosexuality?

Because it's pretty easy too if the fact it's a sin is drummed into someone from an early age, or they don't ever have to deal with being souly attracted to the same sex. Ive never been attracted to a man in my life and I'm certain that won't change.

 

[Criada]

Because I know that once we allow one sin, then others will follow. Soon, Christianity will be abolished. Like it was predicted in the bible. I do not want my children (if I will have any) to live in a world where their bible will be taken by the government. Or a world where churches will be torn down. And this is already happening. The whole world views Christianity as lame or other. We are all losing faith. How could it be that we could stray so far from our God? Our Father?

Thing is though, this is going to happen, according to the Bible. So, legislation isn't going to change it.

I just don't want to live in a world where me believing in Jesus is a bad thing. Because it's not. And I'm sure you can say the same about you living in a world where you want your gay freedom, and I can understand that you feel it's right.

Speaking for myself, no,I don't want any ''gay freedom".
But, I don't think that enforcing Christian values on people by law will ever work. If it did, Jesus sacrifice wouldn't have been necessary. He died to set us free, because the Law didn't work.

But I cannot help how I feel. I was lost before, but now that I came back to Jesus, repented of my sins, I feel renewed. Before, I didn't have the Spirit with me. I would read the Bible and get frustrated with it because I even though I prayed for the Spirit to reveal things to me, I couldn't feel him.

But now ever since I repented, when I read the Bible, it's clear to me. And now I feel obligated to share with others what He has revealed to me, because before I was in the dark, doing things I shouldn't have done. And I truly allowed Satan to make me believe that these things I was doing was Ok. That God was a myth. But he was wrong and I knew it. So, my confusion just spiralled until I was completley unaware of what was right and what was wrong, and I confused both all the time. I had no direction.
But the bible gave me direction. The narrow path. And I say these things so that perhaps you can learn from my experience or relate to it in any way.

We don't have to live alone. We have a God who loves us. We should worship him with all our heart and soul. Look at all the blessings he has given us! There has never been anything good in our lives that has not come from Him. We are his children.

I am very glad that you have come back to God, and are growing in Him... that is always wonderful to hear. And your last paragraph is beautiful, and very true.
But, the fact that someone doesn't agree with enforcing Christian values by legislation doesn't mean that they are working for satan, sweetie. I love God too... my sexual inclination doesn't actually change that.

 

[HaloHope]

But, the fact that someone doesn't agree with enforcing Christian values by legislation doesn't mean that they are working for satan, sweetie. I love God too... my sexual inclination doesn't actually change that.

Well said Criada (and hope you are well too!) , I think this part of your post was wonderful.

 

[dimwhitt]

6 reasons homosexuality is wrong - 3 from nature and 3 from Scripture

1) it is contrary to design - the male and female are designed to fit and function like a lock and a key. the parts being made/prepared for one another. for the male homosexual, the anus is the primary point of intercourse (beyond oral) and the anus is not equipped to serve this purpose and can cause damage if done so, not to mention the anus is the source of excreting waste from the body

2) contrary to health - the average lifespan of the male homosexual is 60 or less (the average lifespan of a heterosexual male is 80 years) because anal intercourse spreads disease and infection and exposes the homosexual to auto-immune disorders because the body is constantly fighting infection

3) it is contrary to nature - there is not a single instance of true homosexuality anywhere in nature and in fact a contradiction of nature's survival because homosexuality cannot reproduce

4) God's intention for man is union to 1 wife as established in Eden (Adam and Eve) and is in in this union that God has designed us

5) The call of the Gospel is to live contrary to our rebellious nature and not live according to our own desires

6) God says you shall not under any circumstances practice homosexuality

none of this is to say that the homosexual is beyond or out of reach from God's redemption and reconciliation thru Christ Jesus

 

[b&wpac4]

I'll just focus on the first three then:

1) it is contrary to design - the male and female are designed to fit and function like a lock and a key. the parts being made/prepared for one another. for the male homosexual, the anus is the primary point of intercourse (beyond oral) and the anus is not equipped to serve this purpose and can cause damage if done so, not to mention the anus is the source of excreting waste from the body

This is mostly irrelevant. People use their bodies in all kinds of ways that may be concluded to say "contrary to design". People own their bodies, and may do with them what they wish.

2) contrary to health - the average lifespan of the male homosexual is 60 or less (the average lifespan of a heterosexual male is 80 years) because anal intercourse spreads disease and infection and exposes the homosexual to auto-immune disorders because the body is constantly fighting infection

EVEN if this is true, it doesn't matter. I can eat at McDonald's every day, and it would be pretty bad for me. I would expect my lifespan to decrease a great deal. But nobody has passed a law saying I cannot eat there.

3) it is contrary to nature - there is not a single instance of true homosexuality anywhere in nature and in fact a contradiction of nature's survival because homosexuality cannot reproduce

There are studies that would disagree with you.

 

[Shane Roach]

Do you follow all the laws of Leviticus?

I doubt it
Do you cut your hair?
Wear clothing made of different fabrics?
Allow people with glasses to attend your church?
Keep slaves?
Eat shellfish?

It is interesting how those who don’t follow the laws of Leviticus are so willing to inflict cherry picked verses out of this book to attack a minority and defend prejudice and discrimination.


Even though you personally do not follow the many laws of Leviticus yet you do not seem to have a problem using Leviticus laws to attack a minority. Why?

Using Leviticus to justify prejudice and discrimination has many issues

First – we live under a new covenant. Jesus did away with the law and put in place his commandment
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. John 13:34

Promoting or justifying discrimination against a minority is not loving. And no matter how one tries to twist the justification it is an act of hate.

If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 1 John 4:20


A further problem is one of translation. Leviticus has many injunctions against engaging in sex – specifically carnal knowledge. However carnal knowledge is not used in either Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 the word that is used is shakab. It is popularly translated to mean to lay (lie) with but there is a problem with that translation. Shakab is used 52 times in the old testament and is always used to a sexual encounter typified by deceit or force, in other words, some type of rape.


Shakab Means "Rape" not copulation, not carnal relations…rape.


Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 means that a man shall not force, or in any way coerce, another man to have sex, in the way that a man is allowed to force sex upon his wife. In other words, man is not allowed to rape a man, it is an abomination.
A man raping a man is no more a description of homosexuality than a man raping a woman is a description of heterosexuality.

So you should not rape a man as you would rape a woman?

Lev 18:22-23

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
KJV

I can lie with a beast as long as it is consensual? Your translation makes no sense to me.

Here's another use of shakab:

Lev 15:18

18 The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.
KJV

Rape? Really...?

I think you're wrong.

To address the OP, it is because of the assault against the institution of the church that this becomes an issue. Being tempted to sin is not a reason for going ahead and doing it. Long term testing is also not a sign that something is not sin.

2 Cor 12:7-9

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
KJV

It's not really limited to homosexuality either. Almost any sex related sin has its group of supporters who try to argue that this is not really a sin. Homosexuality is a hot topic since the recent attempts to force it into the category of a civil right. The issue has already rendered some churches completely anti-Christian in their doctrine.

 

[Shane Roach]

And the passage you pointed out is right next to the passage that details the situations where it is perfectly moral to kill your own children

And also contained in that chapter are God’s policies about slavery and eating shellfish and cutting your hair, and shaving, and stalking to a woman during her period, and forbidding people with glasses to come into church, and wearing poly-cotton blends and so on and so on and so on

I'd like to see some passages quoted. This is beginning to be a regular feature here, and I looked and did not see specifically the passage regarding stoning children anywhere near this. The closest I could find was stoning a reprobate son and it was miles from the reference quoted. I found a verse for having sex with a woman during her flow, once where it was forbidden, but then another which said "wash and be unclean until the even", which leads me to believe talking to her would not be a big deal...

Lev 18:19

19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness .
KJV

Lev 15:24

24 And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.
KJV

This all begins to look like a concerted effort to somehow demonize the Law, but that is not the effect of the new covenant.

Rom 7:7-13

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid . Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid . But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
KJV

Gentiles, it was argued, need only refrain from eating meat sacrificed to idols, refrain from drinking blood, and keep from fornication. Since they are not Jews, there is little reason for them to partake in rituals intended to separate the Jews from other nations. One might argue that since there is "no longer Jew nor Gentile" that all such things are superfluous, but there is nevertheless the matter of the 144,000, and the fact that God has said he will reserve for Himself 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe, for the final days.

Some people argue that this is necessary so that all prophecy can be fulfilled.

In any event, demonizing the OT law is not a teaching either of Christ or of the Apostles, nor has it been a teaching of the Church.

 

[Shane Roach]

I'll just focus on the first three then:


This is mostly irrelevant. People use their bodies in all kinds of ways that may be concluded to say "contrary to design". People own their bodies, and may do with them what they wish.


EVEN if this is true, it doesn't matter. I can eat at McDonald's every day, and it would be pretty bad for me. I would expect my lifespan to decrease a great deal. But nobody has passed a law saying I cannot eat there.


There are studies that would disagree with you.

They've passed a seatbelt law or three though.

Every law there is limits personal freedom, and many of them much more egregiously so than laws against gays getting married.

I do not understand the failure of people to understand that in these times where family has been under attack for so long, when we are beginning to even get the psychiatric establishment on board as to the importance of fathers as well as mothers, when we have seen the utter disaster that has resulted from the destruction of families, why it is that we now see yet another attack on that very institution.

 

[b&wpac4]

They've passed a seatbelt law or three though.

Every law there is limits personal freedom, and many of them much more egregiously so than laws against gays getting married.

I do not understand the failure of people to understand that in these times where family has been under attack for so long, when we are beginning to even get the psychiatric establishment on board as to the importance of fathers as well as mothers, when we have seen the utter disaster that has resulted from the destruction of families, why it is that we now see yet another attack on that very institution.

Homosexual marriage does not destroy families. Divorce does, but not homosexual marriage.

 

[LightHorseman]

They've passed a seatbelt law or three though.

Every law there is limits personal freedom, and many of them much more egregiously so than laws against gays getting married.

I do not understand the failure of people to understand that in these times where family has been under attack for so long, when we are beginning to even get the psychiatric establishment on board as to the importance of fathers as well as mothers, when we have seen the utter disaster that has resulted from the destruction of families, why it is that we now see yet another attack on that very institution.

It is only right for a law to limit a personal freedom when the passing of such a law is of significant benefit to the community.

Seatbelt laws should be passded because, even though it decreases our freedom to bounce around in cars like a bean in a maracca, it does mean that many lives are saved daily that would otherwise be lost, and saves 10x as many poeople from hideous life long injury and disability. So the thinking is that the net benefit to the community is worth the loss of freedom.

Where is the net benefit to the community in keeping consentual homosexual marriage illegal?