Why take such a stand against homosexuality?

[LightHorseman]

Translation,

"The issue is complex. I am not going to present a cogent argument, nor have any of the other liberals, but I will say that all "conservative" Christians (aka Christians that disagree with me) are actually doing the exact same "pick and mix" as the liberals they accuse.

Trust me. I'm Liberal. I'm always right."

Shiny, shiny mirror...

 

[BigBadWlf]

We can either take the Bible to be completely true, or use intelligence and reason which God has provided us with and select those parts which we see as the word of God.

This idea of 'pick n' mix' causes many Christians to react strongly without understanding that they do just the same. The question is, where to draw the line? I am beginning to understand that I can be a homosexual as well as a Christian, as long as I do not have sex before marriage/ civil union - same rules must apply.

“He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” 2 Cor 3:6

I have always found it annoying that Jesus didn't make clear his views on homosexuality and that the majority of the teachings come from Saul.

Jesus made his view on the subject abundantly clear
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.” John 13:34
There is nothing loving in discrimination. No matter how one justifies themselves, it is always an act of hate.
Sadly many choose to ignore Jesus

 

[Criada]

Hating gays is another way to keep us divided and our attention diverted from the goals of the Power Elite.

Um....
?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Hating gays is another way to keep us divided and our attention diverted from the goals of the Power Elite.

 

[Beanieboy]

“He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” 2 Cor 3:6



Jesus made his view on the subject abundantly clear
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.” John 13:34
There is nothing loving in discrimination. No matter how one justifies themselves, it is always an act of hate.
Sadly many choose to ignore Jesus

Well, they do say, "Jesus love me. Not you, but he love me, and that's all it's about. Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"

Being gay, I understand that being homosexual is not "an act", but an orientation. If it is simply and act, then "sinning" once or twice a week isn't so bad.

Heterosexuals understand that "being heterosexual" isn't about a sex act either. One can be heterosexual and a virgin, for example.

So, "homosexuality is a sin" is received as "you are a sin."
There is a tag line to the "love", "love the sinner, hate the sin." God loved us when we were still sinners. Jesus loved the sinner, but we feel the need to make it quite clear that we love others but NOT their sin.

Does anyone see a difference in how they are treated?
If I say, "I love you, just not your gender," do you feel loved, easily able to separate yourself from male or female?

Did you sing,
"Jesus loves me
but hates my sin"....? as a kid?

Do you need a tag line to "I love you" to ensure the person isn't condoning your shortcomings?
"I love you, but not your weakness" is how you great your spouse or friend? "Well, I should get going. Happy Birthday, Mom. Love you, but not your sins." Is that what you say?

Are you told how much God loves you in church, BUT NOT YOUR SIN? Does John 3:16 say, "For God so love the world, but not its sin....?

Does your boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse/best friend/parent follow every "I love you" with a "but not your sin"?
"Happy Anniversary. I love you, Rebecca, but not your sin."
"I love you, Anthony, but not the way you leave the seat up." It's like sticking it to a person.
"I love you........ despite the mouth of a sailor that you have (sucker punch.)"

If one is to point to a homosexual, and by saying, "I love you" to one's straight neighbor, but, "I love the sinner, but not the sin," one is implying that they are not a sinner, that you are doing the "sinner" such a big favor by loving them despite their sin. It ignores that this favor, God's grace, was extended to you.

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
—Romans 5:8, NIV

It ignores that all of us are sinners. Why should we acknowledge that? If I want others to love me, trying to work on my weaknesses, shouldn't I extend it to others first, rather than demand from others what I won't offer?

The representation of God from such "believers" is one of wrath for disobedience, the threat of death in some Old Skool OT lightning bolt, and then, not satisfied, tortured eternally after death, and telling the "sinner" that they deserve it. Such people imply that they deserve heaven, they have earned it, because they are so good, and seem heartless, unmoved, even angry, by anyone who will be sent to this hell. They are saved. You are on your own.

This God, they say, demands worship. He sit upon a thrown, and for eternity, we sing praises to him, say, "you're the man, God! You're the best!", and he sits there, and basks in it. And they can't understand how the atheist sits there with that look on their face.

Does it make sense that I say, "I'm going to have a child, then, I am going to sit on the couch, and have my child tell me how great I am all day long."

Sound selfish? It is. The "love" of this poor representation of God takes, but doesn't give, demands adoration, but feels the need to constantly remind you, "Jesus loves you, but HATES YOUR SIN. Isaiah 64:5 says "All our good deeds are like filthy rags" so, even the good you do disgusts me. When I look down, I look down in contempt. Unless you have Jesus, and then you are perfect like me. Now, adooooore me. Someone make me a turkey potpie!"

Again, the atheist looks at them with an open mouth of disbelief. Why do you love this god?

It is God made in man's image. Why do they love him? Because then they can see themselves as righteous, for having Jesus, while looking at others in contempt for not having Jesus because God does. Perfect logic, yeah? Jesus was sent not to condemn the world, but save it, so, and that is the Christians' job: to condemn the world, but not themselves. "Jesus me. Me me me."

Rather, if I were to have a child, I love the infant, give it all the love I have. Parents will sacrifice time, money, and even their life for the child. In response, the child returns that love to the parent. As a child, I sometimes said, "I hate you, Mom!" But she continued to love me, even though she was hurt and my love returned.

That's God. God love us now, with the faith that we will be reflected in him, loving each other, and that love reflecting back on God, a reciprocal love like parent and child.

When we make ourselves proud, claim God loves his Children (implying he doesn't love those who aren't), suddenly, the "sinner" has to love God first. God picks and chooses which "neighbor" he loves and which he hates, just like people. Non Christians get this. It is sub par with some human love, yet told it is perfect. In a modern version of Red Ridinghood, Thurber retells the tale, the girl entering her grandma's house, seeing that it is clearly a wolf in nightie, pulls out a gun, and shoots him dead. It clearly fooled no one but the wolf, thinking it was a great disguise. So, to, is this brand of Christianity, which allows the believer to think of themselves as righteous, earned by their goodness and holiness (of what? Ask Jesus forgiveness? That makes someone "good"?), and to point to another, and call them "sinner."

Mark 2
15While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

17On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

In other words, if we point to others, and call them sinners, but think ourselves righteous, we are not called by Christ. Why would we be? What we need Christ for if we are righteous? Other people do, the "sinners."

"Love the sinner, hate the sin" treats "loving your neighbor" as a condescending favor to the "sinner", rather than being obedient to God. It's one of the two greatest commandments, not an option. Either you love God, and you love your neighbor, or you hate your neighbor, and do not love God.

1 John 4:7-8 says that he who does not love does not know God.
1 John 4:20 Whoever says, "I love God," but hates his brother is a liar. The one who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love the God whom he has not seen.

It's a big deal.

So I think that this phrase, “Hate the sin, but love the sinner,” is something that Satan tries to pass off as a Scripture quotation, to get us one step closer to hating sinners, so that we will chase off as unworthy the very people we were sent to save. At least, that’s how it usually ends; when we are finally perverted into thinking that compassion is weakness and a hard heart is moral discernment. Woe to those who fall into this trap! When Jesus returns, they stand covered with the blood of the sheep they chased into the wolf pack, expecting Him to say, “Thou good and faithful servant,” but instead He says to them, “Get out of my chair!”
Hate the Sin, but Love the Sinner

What is my point to all of this?

I used to be frustrated about the issue, the dishonesty, the refusal to listen, the misquotes, but now, I find it fascinating psychologically.

I find the complexity of humanity fascinating in the way that one can look to the bible, which clearly states the importance of love, and acting in love to all people, but then focus so much on homosexuality, argue that it is a sin, etc.

1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can understand all secrets and every form of knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains but have no love, I am nothing.

I think drunkeness is a sin, by which I mean, more like a really bad idea. It hurts my body, especially at my age, and makes me do or say stupid things.

But it makes no sense for me to stand outside a bar, yelling at people coming or going, yelling at them about how THEY are sinners, getting drunk, or think that that is what God has called me to do - point fingers at others, and make myself look righteous.
No one stops drinking, I feel superior, but it's not God. It doesn't even fool me. It makes me look foolish, makes God look foolish and petty. It allows me to overlook my own shortcomings, a 2x4 sticking out of my eye, while telling someone about the speck in theirs.

And what? Am I going to stand before God, and say, "yeah, I wasn't very loving, but didn't get drunk!"

If all you have to show for your life is that you, a person not attracted to men, simply refrained from sex with the same sex, which you didn't want to have in the first place, and turned you focus only on "not having homosexual sex", don't you suspect, as one can guess from reading the Sheep and the Goats, that you aren't going to be asked what you didn't do, but what you did, to show love?

A faith to move mountains. Mountains....think about that. Moving Mount St. Helen's. But without love, I have nothing. Am nothing. And have not served God, nor knew God. I show God that my faith is so strong, I moved a mountain. He says, "Meh. You did nothin'."

Why take a stand against homosexuality? To try to overshadow the lack of love for one's neighbor, that loving your neighbor is a commandment, and that not loving your neighbor is not loving God, and then put on that nightie, and say, "Look how good I am."

Really? Really????? "I haven't killed anyone. I'm so righteous. I haven't punched a little kid. I'm a great guy! I'm not like other people. They need Jesus."

You're right, Mr. Wolf. I do need Jesus. Jesus came to call the sinners, not the righteous, so I am one of the people who came for. But you think you don't need him, because you are saved, righteous, holy, deserve heaven, and are angered when I say that I will pray for you. And you still can't see through the disguise?