why some never get saved

A_Thinker · Jun 15, 2021

Lifelong_sinner said:
I believe that at some point, we can reach a time where we simply have passed repentance, and i base this off of esau. He tried to repent but found that he couldnt.

Scripture simply says that Esau could not repent of the act of selling his birthright (i.e. it was a done deal), ... not that he couldn't repent in general ...

FaithWillDo · Jun 15, 2021

Lifelong_sinner said:
hello all. been doing a lot of soul searching about getting saved, and the question popped into my mind, why is it that some dont get saved? ray comfort and todd friel would say 1. because people love their sin. and 2. because they thought they had done so much bad, 5hat they couldnt be saved. both are interesting ideas. but for me, i think its something different.

i find i have a lack of repentance. specifically over sexual sin. i have a hard time accepting that 2 adults married can have sex 20 times a day, yet the unmarried cant have sex at all. i have a real problem with that. i feel like single people get a raw deal in this regards.

i believe i have to find a way around this or i'll never get salvation. but is it dangerous to question a rule concerning this? can a person be past repentance if they think like this for too long?

Dear Lifelong sinner,

You asked:
Why is it that some don't get saved?

The answer is simple. Most people in the world are not saved because Christ has not chosen to save them at this time. We cannot save ourselves. If we could, then the Law would have saved us. But the Law can't save us. It was given to mankind to prove this truth to us and to lead us to Christ. Since our "works" cannot save us, Christ will save us by His "works". "In due time", Christ will come to each of us and do His work "within" us. His work cleans the inside of our cup whereas, the Law only attempts to clean the outside by man's works.

Here is the pathway to salvation: At a time of Christ's choosing, He will come to every person TWO times.

Most He will not come to at all in this age and they will remain "unbelievers".

For some, He will come to them once. When He comes them, He calls them out from the world and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. But because Christ leaves them carnally minded and spiritually blind, they quickly fall prey to Satan's lies and they "fall away". Falling away is the only sin that leads to death (loss of salvation) and is a return to works for salvation rather than continuing in faith. All Called Out believers will fall away because they prefer the Old Wine over the New Wine.

If a Called Out believer is also "chosen from the foundation of the world", Christ will come to them a second time with the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is what the apostles received on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room. That is the time of conversion and when a person is "born again". These chosen believers are the only ones who will be saved in this age.

Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the EARLY and LATTER rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ. In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition we have from birth, no one can be saved. We must die and be "born again". The penalty of sin is death and all mankind will pay it. But from that death, Christ will give us all a new birth as a child of God. This death we must pay is a spiritual death - the death of our Old Man. We all must travel the wide path that leads to the destruction of our Old Man. For those who are only Called Out (not chosen), they will start on this wide path but will physically die before they complete it. For those Called Out believers who are also "chosen", Christ will come to them a second time so that they complete the wide path. When Christ comes, He comes to them as a thief in the night who brings destruction. But from this destruction, He gives them a new birth with the Latter Rain of the Spirit. They are the First-Fruits of His harvest. All persons not chosen will eventually travel both paths in the FINAL age. When all of Christ's work is finished, He will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and God will be "all in all".

I can give you MANY scriptures to support what I have stated above if you have an interest.

Joe

Butterball1 · Jun 15, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Or, '...does not love all men equally, or with the same purpose for them.' You assume culpability simply because of cause and intent. The culpability is on the part of the agent who is rebellious to the core, against his own creator.

In other words, you are misrepresenting Calvinism.

If salvation is 100% God's doing where man has no role, no choice in his own salvation then culpability would be 100% upon God. Man cannot be held culpable for a choice made for them by God for a choice that supposedly was made for all mankind before the world began.

Again, the poster Lifelong Sinner said he was Calvinist, therefore must believe the false notion of men being born totally depraved. If all men therefore are born "rebellious agents" innately against their will unable to obey God then that is having God unjustly condemning men for an inability men were born with. God does not do such for such is not in His perfect, holy, just nature.

FaithWillDo · Jun 15, 2021

Butterball1 said:
If salvation is 100% God's doing where man has no role, no choice in his own salvation then culpability would be 100% upon God. Man cannot be held culpable for a choice made for them by God for a choice that supposedly was made for all mankind before the world began.

Again, the poster Lifelong Sinner said he was Calvinist, therefore must believe the false notion of men being born totally depraved. If all men therefore are born "rebellious agents" innately against their will unable to obey God then that is having God unjustly condemning men for an inability men were born with. God does not do such for such is not in His perfect, holy, just nature.

Dear Butterball1,
I just wanted to make a few comments to you even though your comments were not directed to me.

Your beliefs require mankind to contribute "works" for our salvation. That approach is rejected by God. Also, mankind is utterly depraved and incapable of knowing God. There is nothing inside mankind that would ever cause us to seek Christ out and accept Him as Lord.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

For that reason, Christ must come to us if we are to ever be saved. 100% of the works for our salvation come from Christ. And when He comes, He gives us the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot call Him "Lord".

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Your beliefs are in direct conflict with these two verses above.

Christ has chosen a time to come to each person who has ever lived and give them the Holy Spirit. We don't ask for that gift nor can we refuse it - it is not possible according to the two verses I posted above. In our spiritually flawed and carnally minded state, if our salvation was depended upon any "works" from us, we could not be saved. And yes, even our confession of faith is a "work". Our confession of faith can only happen AFTER Christ does His work within us. No man can boast about their salvation. If mankind could boast, then it means we must have contributed some "work" for it to happen and this is not possible.

In this age, Christ is only appearing to His chosen Elect. They are the First-Fruits of His harvest. They are the first portion to be harvested, not the only portion. The final harvest occurs at the end of the growing season (in the Lake of Fire age). Most of mankind will have to have to wait until that final age to be saved. They cannot saved themselves nor can they choose the time when Christ will come to them. We must wait upon to the Lord to do His work. He is the Savior and He does all the work.

Presented below is the pathway to salvation which Christ's "works" will cause us all to travel. Only the timing of when a person completes the pathway will vary. And it varies because of God's plan and purpose. Mankind has no "free will" ability to deviate from what God has laid out for us to follow.

Paul's conversion is the pattern whereby all mankind will be saved.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

In order to understand this “pattern” (type), we must spiritually understand the steps of Paul’s conversion as recorded for us in Acts 9:3-19.

This first set of verses below “types” Paul’s time of being Called Out from the world. This is the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Acts 9:3-9 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

These first events which happened to Paul symbolize the process that we all must go through to be “called out from the world” (enter the Church).

When an individual is Called Out from the world to follow Christ, Christ will come to them suddenly and without invitation. We do not have the free will ability to choose Christ as is commonly taught. If Christ does come to us in the present age, it will be a spiritual event that happens within us (Luke 17:21). Christ cannot be seen with human eyes.

When Christ spiritually comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Holy Spirit, they immediately fall to the earth just as Paul did. The “earth” represents mankind’s carnality. The new believer has risen up out of the sea of humanity to dwell upon the earth. The “earth” symbolizes the new believer’s carnality which still remains.

Since the new believer is still carnal and spiritually blind, they cannot recognize the “voice” that calls to them. They must rely on being told who the voice is. After being told that the voice is the voice of Jesus, Paul answers back to Christ as “Lord”. Since scripture says that no one can call Jesus “Lord” but by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:3), we know that this event happening to Paul is the Early Rain of the Spirit (1Cor 12:3). Paul calls Him “Lord” but lacks the ability to know Him for himself. Christ remains HIDDEN from Paul’s understanding, just as He remains hidden to all who experience the Early Rain of the Spirit as Paul did.
Paul then asks Christ “what wilt thou have me to do”? Because Paul remains carnally minded, he believes that he must “do something” to earn the Lord’s favor. The Lord answers him by saying to arise and go into the city. The “city” represents the Great City which is Sodom and Egypt. Once in the city, someone (ministers of Satan) there will tell him what he must do. At that point, the new believer becomes deceived and “falls away”.

From verse 7, we see that no one with Paul experienced what Paul did. This visitation by Christ is only for the person who has been “called out”. It is a spiritual event and happens “within” Paul.

After Paul stands up and opens his eyes, he “saw no man”. This blindness of Paul’s represents his spiritual blindness. Scripture goes on to say that Paul had to be led by the hand. This explains why a new believer readily follows the false doctrines presented to them in the church (the blind leading the blind). The new believer has no ability to follow Christ for themselves.

After Paul arrived in Damascus, verse 9 says that Paul remained blind and did not eat or drink for 3 days. Paul’s time of spiritual blindness and inability to eat the true bread from heaven or to drink the New Wine causes him to fall prey to Satan’s deceptions. He quickly “falls away” from faith and returns to “works” (2Thes 2:3). Because he rejects approaching Christ by faith alone, he commits the sin that leads to death. Now his new spiritual state is worse than his first when he was an unbeliever. He has become a Man of Sin under Satan’s influence.

This second set of verses below represents Paul’s conversion.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

Here we are told that Paul is “chosen” regardless of His current fallen away state and that Paul will bear Christ’s name to the world. All of God’s Chosen vessels will likewise bear Christ’s name to this world.

In verse 17, Christ (symbolized by Ananias) comes to Paul a second time and heals his spiritual blindness and gives him the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Because Paul’s blindness is healed, Christ “appears” to Him. Paul no longer needs to be told who Christ is because he can now see Christ for himself. Paul can now start eating “meat” (truth).

Once Paul receives his nourishment from Christ, the brightness of Christ’s appearing (truth) destroys Paul’s religious carnal nature (the Great city Babylon/Sodom/Egypt/earthly Jerusalem) which taught him to approach God through Works of the Law.

Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Now that the Great City is destroyed within Paul, Paul is empowered by the Spirit to walk by faith in Christ (the New Wine/Blood of Christ), the true and narrow pathway that leads to God. He can now begin drinking the New Wine. The Man of Sin is now dead and a child of God is born.

Joe

Mark Quayle · Jun 15, 2021

Butterball1 said:
If salvation is 100% God's doing where man has no role, no choice in his own salvation then culpability would be 100% upon God. Man cannot be held culpable for a choice made for them by God for a choice that supposedly was made for all mankind before the world began.

Culpability for what would be 100% upon God? And how would it be upon God?

Man has choice --Calvinism demands it, actually. But the Gospel is wholly the work of God. This doesn't mean that man does not choose, but that his choice is not the hinge upon which his eternal destiny depends. In fact, Calvinism says, in effect, that if a man does NOT choose Christ, he is not of Christ. His choice of Christ is a necessary result of the Spirit of God regenerating him.

Butterball1 said:
Again, the poster Lifelong Sinner said he was Calvinist, therefore must believe the false notion of men being born totally depraved. If all men therefore are born "rebellious agents" innately against their will unable to obey God then that is having God unjustly condemning men for an inability men were born with. God does not do such for such is not in His perfect, holy, just nature.

You have a false notion of what the Doctrine of Total Depravity teaches. It is NOT against their will that they are unable to obey God. It is because of their will that they are at enmity with God and unable to obey. They cannot because they will not. Read Romans 8:5-8 again.

BBAS 64 · Jun 16, 2021

Good Day,

I think Steve Lawson covered the question quite will here:

The central truth of God’s saving grace is succinctly stated in the assertion, “Salvation is of the Lord.” This strong declaration means that every aspect of man’s salvation is from God and is entirely dependent upon God. The only contribution that we make is the sin that was laid upon Jesus Christ at the cross. The Apostle Paul affirmed this when he wrote, “From Him and through Him and to Him are all things” (Rom. 11:36). This is to say, salvation is God determined, God purchased, God applied, and God secured. From start to finish, salvation is of the Lord alone.

Salvation Is of the Lord by Steven Lawson

In Him,

Bill

FaithWillDo · Jun 16, 2021

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day,

I think Steve Lawson covered the question quite will here:

The central truth of God’s saving grace is succinctly stated in the assertion, “Salvation is of the Lord.” This strong declaration means that every aspect of man’s salvation is from God and is entirely dependent upon God. The only contribution that we make is the sin that was laid upon Jesus Christ at the cross. The Apostle Paul affirmed this when he wrote, “From Him and through Him and to Him are all things” (Rom. 11:36). This is to say, salvation is God determined, God purchased, God applied, and God secured. From start to finish, salvation is of the Lord alone.

Salvation Is of the Lord by Steven Lawson

In Him,

Bill

Dear Bill,
I wanted to comment on your remarks. Very few people have this proper understanding which you presented. I am impressed.

I'll expand what you stated with this:

We are saved by Christ alone. In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition we have from birth, no man can call Jesus "Lord" unless Christ comes to us and gives us the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Without this work of Christ within us, no one would call Jesus "Lord" or be saved.

When Christ comes to us, He does so "suddenly" - without our asking Him to do so. Paul's conversion is the pattern. Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road without Paul's invitation. In fact, Paul was on his way to persecute Christians and had no intention of accepting Christ and calling Him Lord. And just as Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit, so does all mankind. It is 100% the work of Christ within us. Christ prepared Paul's heart with the Holy Spirit and give Paul the answer of His tongue:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Because this is the way Christ saves us, it takes mankind's "works" out of the picture. Christ comes to us because of GRACE and His work of preparing our hearts with the Holy Spirit is what saves us. There is no other way. God rejects mankind's "works", even our "supposed" work of accepting Jesus as Lord. When we claim that work for ourselves, we are stealing from Christ.

Scripture says that without the Holy Spirit, no man can make a decision to accept Christ. And as 1Cor 12:3 says, once we have the Holy Spirit, we cannot reject Christ either. We are saved solely because it is God's "will" that we be saved.

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.

God is not a "respecter of persons" because all mankind misses the mark and has no ability within themselves to earn God's favor. Because of this truth, God saves mankind in a way that suits His plan and purposes. We can do nothing to make ourselves more worthy of His salvation than anyone else. No person will have anything to boast about concerning their salvation other than to boast about the what Christ did for them.

In this age, God is only saving those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. They are "First-Fruits" of His harvest of mankind. They are "few". But they are only the "first" portion to be harvested, not the whole harvest. God's Word proclaims that He loves us all and will save us all. For that reason, He sent His son Jesus Christ:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

But there is an order to mankind's salvation. The First-Fruits (Elect, Heirs) are saved in this age. In the next and final age, Christ will bring in the remaining harvest of mankind. After the "fullness" of the Gentiles are harvested, the Nation of Israel will then be harvested (the first will be last and the last will be first). Then it will be "testified" to be true that Jesus Christ really is the Savior of the world:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This is the Gospel of Christ and it truly is GOOD NEWS for the world.

Joe

A_JAY · Jun 16, 2021

Lifelong_sinner said:
i find i have a lack of repentance. specifically over sexual sin. i have a hard time accepting that 2 adults married can have sex 20 times a day, yet the unmarried cant have sex at all. i have a real problem with that. i feel like single people get a raw deal in this regards.

You must be single then?

Lifelong_sinner said:
i believe i have to find a way around this or i'll never get salvation. but is it dangerous to question a rule concerning this? can a person be past repentance if they think like this for too long?

It can be dangerous because it may indicate a hardening of the heart.

Butterball1 · Jun 20, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Butterball1,
I just wanted to make a few comments to you even though your comments were not directed to me.

Your beliefs require mankind to contribute "works" for our salvation. That approach is rejected by God. Also, mankind is utterly depraved and incapable of knowing God. There is nothing inside mankind that would ever cause us to seek Christ out and accept Him as Lord.

All thru the BIble, God requires the work of obedience to His will from man for man to be saved. As long as a man continues to disobey God (do unrighteouness) he continues to not be of God 1 John 3:10) for it those who work righteounesss that are accepted with God. No example in the Bible of God saving one who continued in disobedience, rebellion to God's will.

Two points:
1) obedience does not earn God's gift of salvation. Not one example in the BIble of man's obedience GOd is said to have earned GOd's gift. Free gifts can and often times do come with preconditions and metting the precondition placed upon a gift does not in anyway earn the free gift.
2) man is not born totally depraved unable to do God's will. Man was given free will and able to choose to obey God, do well or disobey GOd, not do well Genesis 4:7. It would make no sense on God's part to COMMAND men to obey Him if man had no such ability. The fact God has commanded men, the imperative logically implies man has both ability and repsonsivilty to obey God.

FaithwillDo said:
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

For that reason, Christ must come to us if we are to ever be saved. 100% of the works for our salvation come from Christ. And when He comes, He gives us the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot call Him "Lord".

Abel was righteous Hebrews 11:4. Even the context in Psalms 14 Paul quotes speaks of righteous men, Psalms 14:5. Paul would be using "righteous" in an absolute sense, that being none are perfectly righteous, perfectly sinless in and of themselves. Men as Able who was righteous, their righteousness came through Christ not in and of themselves.

Men are able to seek GOd Psalms 34:4; 2 Chrnicles 26:3-5. Men have been COMMANDED to seek God, Isaiah 55:6 the imperative logically implying men do have the ability to seek God, Acts of the Apostles 17:27

FaithwillDo said:
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Your beliefs are in direct conflict with these two verses above.

The Holy Spirit is the author of the word. No one can, apart from the information the Spirit gives in His word, can say Jesus is Lord. Since the Holy Spirit's word gives one knowledge of the Lord, the Holy Spirit is given credit for one having knowledge of Christ.

Much error in the idea that the Holy Spirit miraculously "illuminates" one's understanding apart from the SPirit's written word, the Bible:
The Holy Spirit "Illumination" Theory: A Critical Review

FaithwillDo said:
Christ has chosen a time to come to each person who has ever lived and give them the Holy Spirit. We don't ask for that gift nor can we refuse it - it is not possible according to the two verses I posted above. In our spiritually flawed and carnally minded state, if our salvation was depended upon any "works" from us, we could not be saved. And yes, even our confession of faith is a "work". Our confession of faith can only happen AFTER Christ does His work within us. No man can boast about their salvation. If mankind could boast, then it means we must have contributed some "work" for it to happen and this is not possible.

No verse says such for such would make God a respecter of persons at to whom He gives or does not give the Holy Spirit. Acts of the Aposltes 10:34-35.

Again, man is not born totally depraved unable to understand or obey God. And again no salvation is possible apart from man's obedience to God's will. Obedience is not something man can boast about for no man's obedience will be sinlessly perfect. Luke 17:10 it is man's duty to obey God and even when man has done all commanded him he is still unprofitable and in need of grace for his obedience to God's will will not be perfect. Hence obedience to God's will is necessary to keep man from serving "sin unto death" Roamsn 6:16 yet grace is needed for when man's obedience is not perfect.

In this age, Christ is only appearing to His chosen Elect. They are the First-Fruits of His harvest. They are the first portion to be harvested, not the only portion. The final harvest occurs at the end of the growing season (in the Lake of Fire age). Most of mankind will have to have to wait until that final age to be saved. They cannot saved themselves nor can they choose the time when Christ will come to them. We must wait upon to the Lord to do His work. He is the Savior and He does all the work.

FaithwillDo said:
Presented below is the pathway to salvation which Christ's "works" will cause us all to travel. Only the timing of when a person completes the pathway will vary. And it varies because of God's plan and purpose. Mankind has no "free will" ability to deviate from what God has laid out for us to follow.

Paul's conversion is the pattern whereby all mankind will be saved.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Yes, believing is necessary to being saved and beleif is OBEDIENCE for God has commanded men to believe, Acts of the APosltes 16:31 therefore beliving is obeying John 3:36.
BUt Paul did not say alvation is by belief ONLY for Paul made repentance, confession and baptism just as essential to salvation as belieivng, ROmans 10:9-10; Romans 6:3-5; 2 Corinthians 7:10.

FaithwillDo said:
In order to understand this “pattern” (type), we must spiritually understand the steps of Paul’s conversion as recorded for us in Acts 9:3-19.

This first set of verses below “types” Paul’s time of being Called Out from the world. This is the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Acts 9:3-9 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

These first events which happened to Paul symbolize the process that we all must go through to be “called out from the world” (enter the Church).

When an individual is Called Out from the world to follow Christ, Christ will come to them suddenly and without invitation. We do not have the free will ability to choose Christ as is commonly taught. If Christ does come to us in the present age, it will be a spiritual event that happens within us (Luke 17:21). Christ cannot be seen with human eyes.

When Christ spiritually comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Holy Spirit, they immediately fall to the earth just as Paul did. The “earth” represents mankind’s carnality. The new believer has risen up out of the sea of humanity to dwell upon the earth. The “earth” symbolizes the new believer’s carnality which still remains.

Since the new believer is still carnal and spiritually blind, they cannot recognize the “voice” that calls to them. They must rely on being told who the voice is. After being told that the voice is the voice of Jesus, Paul answers back to Christ as “Lord”. Since scripture says that no one can call Jesus “Lord” but by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:3), we know that this event happening to Paul is the Early Rain of the Spirit (1Cor 12:3). Paul calls Him “Lord” but lacks the ability to know Him for himself. Christ remains HIDDEN from Paul’s understanding, just as He remains hidden to all who experience the Early Rain of the Spirit as Paul did.
Paul then asks Christ “what wilt thou have me to do”? Because Paul remains carnally minded, he believes that he must “do something” to earn the Lord’s favor. The Lord answers him by saying to arise and go into the city. The “city” represents the Great City which is Sodom and Egypt. Once in the city, someone (ministers of Satan) there will tell him what he must do. At that point, the new believer becomes deceived and “falls away”.

From verse 7, we see that no one with Paul experienced what Paul did. This visitation by Christ is only for the person who has been “called out”. It is a spiritual event and happens “within” Paul.

After Paul stands up and opens his eyes, he “saw no man”. This blindness of Paul’s represents his spiritual blindness. Scripture goes on to say that Paul had to be led by the hand. This explains why a new believer readily follows the false doctrines presented to them in the church (the blind leading the blind). The new believer has no ability to follow Christ for themselves.

After Paul arrived in Damascus, verse 9 says that Paul remained blind and did not eat or drink for 3 days. Paul’s time of spiritual blindness and inability to eat the true bread from heaven or to drink the New Wine causes him to fall prey to Satan’s deceptions. He quickly “falls away” from faith and returns to “works” (2Thes 2:3). Because he rejects approaching Christ by faith alone, he commits the sin that leads to death. Now his new spiritual state is worse than his first when he was an unbeliever. He has become a Man of Sin under Satan’s influence.

This second set of verses below represents Paul’s conversion.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

Here we are told that Paul is “chosen” regardless of His current fallen away state and that Paul will bear Christ’s name to the world. All of God’s Chosen vessels will likewise bear Christ’s name to this world.

In verse 17, Christ (symbolized by Ananias) comes to Paul a second time and heals his spiritual blindness and gives him the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Because Paul’s blindness is healed, Christ “appears” to Him. Paul no longer needs to be told who Christ is because he can now see Christ for himself. Paul can now start eating “meat” (truth).

Once Paul receives his nourishment from Christ, the brightness of Christ’s appearing (truth) destroys Paul’s religious carnal nature (the Great city Babylon/Sodom/Egypt/earthly Jerusalem) which taught him to approach God through Works of the Law.

Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Now that the Great City is destroyed within Paul, Paul is empowered by the Spirit to walk by faith in Christ (the New Wine/Blood of Christ), the true and narrow pathway that leads to God. He can now begin drinking the New Wine. The Man of Sin is now dead and a child of God is born.

Joe

Saul-Paul was not saved while still on the road to Demascus. Saul was told to go on to the city and there in the city "it shall be told thee what thou must do." So there was something Saul MUST DO to be saved. The part you left out in Saul's conversion is when Saul came to the city he met with Ananias who COMMANDED Saul "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

From the above command given to Saul by Ananias we see;
--Saul was still in his sins, unsaved therefore not saved while still on the road to Demascus.
--Saul was commanded to be baptized, therefore being water baptized is what he "must do" to be saved, Acts of the Apostles 9:6. The command to be baptized impies a necessity, a requirement from God to be obeyed that Saul would not be saved until he complied/obeyed. Baptism was the means by which his sins would be washed away and obeying the command did NOT earn Saul anything nut a precondition God placed upon His gift of salvation. This is the NT pattern to be followed in order to be saved....."calling on the name of the Lord" means DOING what the Lord says to do in being baptized for remission of sins.

Butterball1 · Jun 20, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Culpability for what would be 100% upon God? And how would it be upon God?

Man has choice --Calvinism demands it, actually. But the Gospel is wholly the work of God. This doesn't mean that man does not choose, but that his choice is not the hinge upon which his eternal destiny depends. In fact, Calvinism says, in effect, that if a man does NOT choose Christ, he is not of Christ. His choice of Christ is a necessary result of the Spirit of God regenerating him.

You have a false notion of what the Doctrine of Total Depravity teaches. It is NOT against their will that they are unable to obey God. It is because of their will that they are at enmity with God and unable to obey. They cannot because they will not. Read Romans 8:5-8 again.

If God ALONE 100% decides which men will or will not be saved, then God has ALL, 100% culpability for those saved and for those lost. Yet salvation is a combination of BOTH God and man. God's role was to provide a pathway to salvation for man through Christ. Man's role is to decide to take that pathway by being obedient to Christ. So those men who choose to disobey Christ have the culpability in their own condemnation while those who do choose to obay are in that sense saving themselves, Acs of the Apostles 2:40, 2 Corinhians 7:1; 1 Peter 1:22; etc.

If man is born totally depraved then he has no free will choice. Free will is the ability to choose bwtween at least two options. If man were born totally depraved he has no option to choose to do well and obey God for his totally depraved state leaves him where he can only not do well in disobeying God. You admit "they are unable to obey" then they have no choice in obeying for they can only disobey. So you have men being born with an innate INABILITY to obey God and then you have God UNJUSTLY condemn men for that innate inability. Yet God does not do such for it goes against His JUST nature. But the Bible shows men are not totally depraved but are able to choose whom they serve, men can choose to serve the flesh. mind things of the flesh OR choose to mind things of the Spirit. Since man has this free will choice in whom he serves (Romans 6:16) GOd can then JUSTLY condemn men for the free will choices men make for themselves and not UNJUST condemn men for an inability born with in not being able to choose.

Mark Quayle · Jun 20, 2021

Butterball1 said:
If God ALONE 100% decides which men will or will not be saved, then God has ALL, 100% culpability for those saved and for those lost.

Faulty logic. God does not remove the will from the lost, but (in the elect) transforms it by regeneration to be able to choose him.

You no doubt would claim it false if I said the command does not imply the ability to obey. Yet God has given the law and nobody has been able to obey it, except Christ.

God's gift of faith to the elect does not imply culpability for failing to give that gift to the lost, who according to Romans 8 CANNOT submit to the law of God. The lost CANNOT please God (verse 8). I don't know what you will do with Romans 8.

Is God culpable for setting things up for the fall of Adam? Was not Adam the one who disobeyed? Is God culpable for the lost state of mankind?

Butterball1 said:
Yet salvation is a combination of BOTH God and man. God's role was to provide a pathway to salvation for man through Christ. Man's role is to decide to take that pathway by being obedient to Christ. So those men who choose to disobey Christ have the culpability in their own condemnation while those who do choose to obay are in that sense saving themselves, Acs of the Apostles 2:40, 2 Corinhians 7:1; 1 Peter 1:22; etc.

Then man has reason to boast, contrary to Scripture.

Butterball1 said:
If man is born totally depraved then he has no free will choice. Free will is the ability to choose bwtween at least two options. If man were born totally depraved he has no option to choose to do well and obey God for his totally depraved state leaves him where he can only not do well in disobeying God. You admit "they are unable to obey" then they have no choice in obeying for they can only disobey.

'WILL' need not be free, in the sense you wish was so. Man has no sovereignty, no spontaneous ability in and of himself apart from causes, to accomplish anything. ALL THINGS ARE CAUSED, EXCEPT FIRST CAUSE. Or do you ascribe to chance? Or are you who accept Christ intrinsically better than those who don't? Follow the logic, man!

Butterball1 said:
So you have men being born with an innate INABILITY to obey God and then you have God UNJUSTLY condemn men for that innate inability. Yet God does not do such for it goes against His JUST nature. But the Bible shows men are not totally depraved but are able to choose whom they serve, men can choose to serve the flesh. mind things of the flesh OR choose to mind things of the Spirit. Since man has this free will choice in whom he serves (Romans 6:16) GOd can then JUSTLY condemn men for the free will choices men make for themselves and not UNJUST condemn men for an inability born with in not being able to choose.

It is not unjust to condemn people for their transgressions against the law. They WILL NOT to obey. They have will. They have genuine choice. FREE in the sense that God's will is free??? —Hardly!

Allow me to walk you through this line of logic. According to pretty much every reasoning person, cause-and-effect is pervasive —that is, everything except the beginning, is from the beginning an effect, no matter how many effects are also causes. None of them but the first cause is a new first cause. NOTHING happens without cause, except first cause? Agreed? Then if God does not cause all results of first cause, he is not first cause.

I have conversed with many atheists, agnostics, and some Christians concerning matters relating to the law of causality. They mostly agree (in the final analysis) that decisions are caused. Options, they say, are apparent, and not actual. 'Chance' is a fiction as a cause; it has no say. It it is true then, that by the chain of causation, decisions are caused, in a purely natural scenario, yet each is blamed for his own decisions —how does that suddenly change if God is at the beginning of the chain of causation?

Your structure collapses under simple logic.

FaithWillDo · Jun 20, 2021

Butterball1 said:
All thru the BIble, God requires the work of obedience to His will from man for man to be saved. As long as a man continues to disobey God (do unrighteouness) he continues to not be of God 1 John 3:10) for it those who work righteounesss that are accepted with God. No example in the Bible of God saving one who continued in disobedience, rebellion to God's will.

Two points:
1) obedience does not earn God's gift of salvation. Not one example in the BIble of man's obedience GOd is said to have earned GOd's gift. Free gifts can and often times do come with preconditions and metting the precondition placed upon a gift does not in anyway earn the free gift.
2) man is not born totally depraved unable to do God's will. Man was given free will and able to choose to obey God, do well or disobey GOd, not do well Genesis 4:7. It would make no sense on God's part to COMMAND men to obey Him if man had no such ability. The fact God has commanded men, the imperative logically implies man has both ability and repsonsivilty to obey God.

Abel was righteous Hebrews 11:4. Even the context in Psalms 14 Paul quotes speaks of righteous men, Psalms 14:5. Paul would be using "righteous" in an absolute sense, that being none are perfectly righteous, perfectly sinless in and of themselves. Men as Able who was righteous, their righteousness came through Christ not in and of themselves.

Men are able to seek GOd Psalms 34:4; 2 Chrnicles 26:3-5. Men have been COMMANDED to seek God, Isaiah 55:6 the imperative logically implying men do have the ability to seek God, Acts of the Apostles 17:27

The Holy Spirit is the author of the word. No one can, apart from the information the Spirit gives in His word, can say Jesus is Lord. Since the Holy Spirit's word gives one knowledge of the Lord, the Holy Spirit is given credit for one having knowledge of Christ.

Much error in the idea that the Holy Spirit miraculously "illuminates" one's understanding apart from the SPirit's written word, the Bible:
The Holy Spirit "Illumination" Theory: A Critical Review

No verse says such for such would make God a respecter of persons at to whom He gives or does not give the Holy Spirit. Acts of the Aposltes 10:34-35.

Again, man is not born totally depraved unable to understand or obey God. And again no salvation is possible apart from man's obedience to God's will. Obedience is not something man can boast about for no man's obedience will be sinlessly perfect. Luke 17:10 it is man's duty to obey God and even when man has done all commanded him he is still unprofitable and in need of grace for his obedience to God's will will not be perfect. Hence obedience to God's will is necessary to keep man from serving "sin unto death" Roamsn 6:16 yet grace is needed for when man's obedience is not perfect.

In this age, Christ is only appearing to His chosen Elect. They are the First-Fruits of His harvest. They are the first portion to be harvested, not the only portion. The final harvest occurs at the end of the growing season (in the Lake of Fire age). Most of mankind will have to have to wait until that final age to be saved. They cannot saved themselves nor can they choose the time when Christ will come to them. We must wait upon to the Lord to do His work. He is the Savior and He does all the work.

Yes, believing is necessary to being saved and beleif is OBEDIENCE for God has commanded men to believe, Acts of the APosltes 16:31 therefore beliving is obeying John 3:36.
BUt Paul did not say alvation is by belief ONLY for Paul made repentance, confession and baptism just as essential to salvation as belieivng, ROmans 10:9-10; Romans 6:3-5; 2 Corinthians 7:10.

Saul-Paul was not saved while still on the road to Demascus. Saul was told to go on to the city and there in the city "it shall be told thee what thou must do." So there was something Saul MUST DO to be saved. The part you left out in Saul's conversion is when Saul came to the city he met with Ananias who COMMANDED Saul "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

From the above command given to Saul by Ananias we see;
--Saul was still in his sins, unsaved therefore not saved while still on the road to Demascus.
--Saul was commanded to be baptized, therefore being water baptized is what he "must do" to be saved, Acts of the Apostles 9:6. The command to be baptized impies a necessity, a requirement from God to be obeyed that Saul would not be saved until he complied/obeyed. Baptism was the means by which his sins would be washed away and obeying the command did NOT earn Saul anything nut a precondition God placed upon His gift of salvation. This is the NT pattern to be followed in order to be saved....."calling on the name of the Lord" means DOING what the Lord says to do in being baptized for remission of sins.

Dear Butterball1,
You said:
2) man is not born totally depraved unable to do God's will. Man was given free will and able to choose to obey God, do well or disobey GOd, not do well Genesis 4:7. It would make no sense on God's part to COMMAND men to obey Him if man had no such ability. The fact God has commanded men, the imperative logically implies man has both ability and repsonsivilty to obey God.

Romans 3:10-20 says that mankind is incapable of doing good or seeking God. We were created "marred".

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

In fact, since we all sin, we are all children of the devil.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

Mankind was made by God to be evil for a time. Everyone will experience their Day of Evil:

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Also, mankind was not given "free will". Scripture clearly says we have no ability to act outside of God's will.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Also, it makes perfect sense for God to command man to obey Him when He knows that it is not possible for us to do so in our created state. The Law was given to make us aware of this inability. Once we are made aware of this truth, we are lead to Christ. Christ is the ONLY ONE who does the will of the Father and our only hope of salvation. For us to do the will of the Father, we must be "in Christ", then He does the work for us. For this to happen, we must be destroyed and "born again". The marred vessel must be destroyed and made into a New Vessel. Christ is the potter and it is His work to save us. It is not our work. The Law proves our work falls short of the mark. Christ must and will come to each of us without our invitation and change us from within so that we can seek Him and accept Him as Lord.

You said:
Abel was righteous Hebrews 11:4. Even the context in Psalms 14 Paul quotes speaks of righteous men, Psalms 14:5. Paul would be using "righteous" in an absolute sense, that being none are perfectly righteous, perfectly sinless in and of themselves. Men as Able who was righteous, their righteousness came through Christ not in and of themselves.

Abel is a "type" of the New Man in Christ. Cain is a "type" of our Old Man. Abel came in faith with a blood offering and for that reason, he is said to be righteous in "type". Cain approached God by the works of His hands and was rejected. Only by approaching God in faith are we made righteous. That is the meaning of the story.

You said:
Men are able to seek GOd Psalms 34:4; 2 Chrnicles 26:3-5. Men have been COMMANDED to seek God, Isaiah 55:6 the imperative logically implying men do have the ability to seek God, Acts of the Apostles 17:27.

Those verses are showing persons are have been Called Out. The entire Nation of Israel was Called Out and were given the ability to seek God. From our created state, we have no such ability:

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul is speaking of mankind in our created state. You are giving examples of mankind who have been Called Out from the world.

You said:
The Holy Spirit is the author of the word. No one can, apart from the information the Spirit gives in His word, can say Jesus is Lord. Since the Holy Spirit's word gives one knowledge of the Lord, the Holy Spirit is given credit for one having knowledge of Christ.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Your understanding you are receiving from this verse is NOT what that verse is saying. It is talking about what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit causes person to say. AFTER a person is given the Holy Spirit, they can only call Jesus Lord and can longer call Him "accursed" (as unbelievers do). Mankind, in our created condition, has no free will ability to seek God or call Jesus "Lord". Christ MUST come to us without our invitation and give us the gifts of the Holy Spirit and faith. Only AFTER Christ does this work within an unbeliever will they accept Christ. And that acceptance is the only choice they can make. They can no longer call Jesus accursed. This work of Christ is how He calls an unbeliever out form the world. It is the Early Rain and is what the Nation of Israel experienced as a whole. However, the Early Rain is not enough to save us. It leaves us spiritually blind just as the Nation of Israel was. It takes the Latter Rain to have spiritual vision. This Latter Rain event is what happened to the apostles on the Day of Pentecost. Before that day, they were blind and could not understand the teachings of Christ.

Here is Christ's teaching on spiritual understanding and when a believer receives it:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a “type” of a Called and Chosen believer.

Butterball1, your belief in Free Will is a "works" based belief system. As with Cain, it is rejected by God. Christ is the Savior and He does all the work necessary to save us. Christ's work is spiritual and happens within us. He must clean the inside of our cup first before we can be clean on the outside. Christ is the one come comes to us (we can go to Him). When He comes, He prepares our hearts and gives us the answer from our tongues via the Holy Spirit When He does His complete work (both Early and Latter Rain) within ANYONE, they will be saved. It is 100% certain to happen because Christ's plan of salvation does not require any "works" from us. We are the work of His hands. We cannot be saved any other way.

Joe

Butterball1 · Jun 23, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Faulty logic. God does not remove the will from the lost, but (in the elect) transforms it by regeneration to be able to choose him.

You no doubt would claim it false if I said the command does not imply the ability to obey. Yet God has given the law and nobody has been able to obey it, except Christ.

God's gift of faith to the elect does not imply culpability for failing to give that gift to the lost, who according to Romans 8 CANNOT submit to the law of God. The lost CANNOT please God (verse 8). I don't know what you will do with Romans 8.

Is God culpable for setting things up for the fall of Adam? Was not Adam the one who disobeyed? Is God culpable for the lost state of mankind?

Then man has reason to boast, contrary to Scripture.

'WILL' need not be free, in the sense you wish was so. Man has no sovereignty, no spontaneous ability in and of himself apart from causes, to accomplish anything. ALL THINGS ARE CAUSED, EXCEPT FIRST CAUSE. Or do you ascribe to chance? Or are you who accept Christ intrinsically better than those who don't? Follow the logic, man!

It is not unjust to condemn people for their transgressions against the law. They WILL NOT to obey. They have will. They have genuine choice. FREE in the sense that God's will is free??? —Hardly!

Allow me to walk you through this line of logic. According to pretty much every reasoning person, cause-and-effect is pervasive —that is, everything except the beginning, is from the beginning an effect, no matter how many effects are also causes. None of them but the first cause is a new first cause. NOTHING happens without cause, except first cause? Agreed? Then if God does not cause all results of first cause, he is not first cause.

I have conversed with many atheists, agnostics, and some Christians concerning matters relating to the law of causality. They mostly agree (in the final analysis) that decisions are caused. Options, they say, are apparent, and not actual. 'Chance' is a fiction as a cause; it has no say. It it is true then, that by the chain of causation, decisions are caused, in a purely natural scenario, yet each is blamed for his own decisions —how does that suddenly change if God is at the beginning of the chain of causation?

Your structure collapses under simple logic.

The issue is if God ALONE decides which men will and will not be saved. If such were the case then God ALONE is 100% culpable for for those saved and lost. How can man have culpability for what is 100% out of his own control, culpabile for what God has 100% control over? He cannot.

The fact God gives men commands (as the commad to believe, Acts 16:31) does imply both ability and responsibility. The fact men do not keep God's command does not imply inability man was born with but a choice man willfully makes to not obey. 1 John 5:3 God's commands are not grevious. If God gave commands IMPOSSIBLE for man to keep then those commands certainly would be grevious. Only evil kings gave grevious commands men were not able to eep, (Exodus 5:5-14). Therefore having man born with a totally depraved nature unable to do right then have God condemn them for how they were born is total injustice on God's part.

Free will is simply having the ability to make a choice between two or more options, which man does possess, Joshua 24;15. Yet those free will choices are not made in a vacuum from from influence, good or evil. Yet the end choice one makes, regardless of influence, he still is responsible for his own choices and God justly holds man accountable for those free will choices.

But if man were born totally depraved then he has no such free will choice to choose between 2 or more options but can only choose to sin. Again that has God UNJUSTLY conemning man for an inability man would be born with. Nor does God "cause" men to make the choices men to for that again violate free will (which God does not do) and makes GOd an unjust ofre in causing men to choose to sin then punish men for the sin God 'caused' men to choose to commit.

Butterball1 · Jun 23, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Butterball1,
You said:
2) man is not born totally depraved unable to do God's will. Man was given free will and able to choose to obey God, do well or disobey GOd, not do well Genesis 4:7. It would make no sense on God's part to COMMAND men to obey Him if man had no such ability. The fact God has commanded men, the imperative logically implies man has both ability and repsonsivilty to obey God.

Romans 3:10-20 says that mankind is incapable of doing good or seeking God. We were created "marred".

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

In fact, since we all sin, we are all children of the devil.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

Mankind was made by God to be evil for a time. Everyone will experience their Day of Evil:

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Also, mankind was not given "free will". Scripture clearly says we have no ability to act outside of God's will.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Also, it makes perfect sense for God to command man to obey Him when He knows that it is not possible for us to do so in our created state. The Law was given to make us aware of this inability. Once we are made aware of this truth, we are lead to Christ. Christ is the ONLY ONE who does the will of the Father and our only hope of salvation. For us to do the will of the Father, we must be "in Christ", then He does the work for us. For this to happen, we must be destroyed and "born again". The marred vessel must be destroyed and made into a New Vessel. Christ is the potter and it is His work to save us. It is not our work. The Law proves our work falls short of the mark. Christ must and will come to each of us without our invitation and change us from within so that we can seek Him and accept Him as Lord.

You said:
Abel was righteous Hebrews 11:4. Even the context in Psalms 14 Paul quotes speaks of righteous men, Psalms 14:5. Paul would be using "righteous" in an absolute sense, that being none are perfectly righteous, perfectly sinless in and of themselves. Men as Able who was righteous, their righteousness came through Christ not in and of themselves.

Abel is a "type" of the New Man in Christ. Cain is a "type" of our Old Man. Abel came in faith with a blood offering and for that reason, he is said to be righteous in "type". Cain approached God by the works of His hands and was rejected. Only by approaching God in faith are we made righteous. That is the meaning of the story.

You said:
Men are able to seek GOd Psalms 34:4; 2 Chrnicles 26:3-5. Men have been COMMANDED to seek God, Isaiah 55:6 the imperative logically implying men do have the ability to seek God, Acts of the Apostles 17:27.

Those verses are showing persons are have been Called Out. The entire Nation of Israel was Called Out and were given the ability to seek God. From our created state, we have no such ability:

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul is speaking of mankind in our created state. You are giving examples of mankind who have been Called Out from the world.

You said:
The Holy Spirit is the author of the word. No one can, apart from the information the Spirit gives in His word, can say Jesus is Lord. Since the Holy Spirit's word gives one knowledge of the Lord, the Holy Spirit is given credit for one having knowledge of Christ.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Your understanding you are receiving from this verse is NOT what that verse is saying. It is talking about what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit causes person to say. AFTER a person is given the Holy Spirit, they can only call Jesus Lord and can longer call Him "accursed" (as unbelievers do). Mankind, in our created condition, has no free will ability to seek God or call Jesus "Lord". Christ MUST come to us without our invitation and give us the gifts of the Holy Spirit and faith. Only AFTER Christ does this work within an unbeliever will they accept Christ. And that acceptance is the only choice they can make. They can no longer call Jesus accursed. This work of Christ is how He calls an unbeliever out form the world. It is the Early Rain and is what the Nation of Israel experienced as a whole. However, the Early Rain is not enough to save us. It leaves us spiritually blind just as the Nation of Israel was. It takes the Latter Rain to have spiritual vision. This Latter Rain event is what happened to the apostles on the Day of Pentecost. Before that day, they were blind and could not understand the teachings of Christ.

Here is Christ's teaching on spiritual understanding and when a believer receives it:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a “type” of a Called and Chosen believer.

Butterball1, your belief in Free Will is a "works" based belief system. As with Cain, it is rejected by God. Christ is the Savior and He does all the work necessary to save us. Christ's work is spiritual and happens within us. He must clean the inside of our cup first before we can be clean on the outside. Christ is the one come comes to us (we can go to Him). When He comes, He prepares our hearts and gives us the answer from our tongues via the Holy Spirit When He does His complete work (both Early and Latter Rain) within ANYONE, they will be saved. It is 100% certain to happen because Christ's plan of salvation does not require any "works" from us. We are the work of His hands. We cannot be saved any other way.

Joe

Nothing in Romans chapters 1-3 speaks of man being born a sinner. Paul spends chapters 1 and 2 proving all (Jew and Gentile) have sinned yet NOWHERE ever says Jew or Gentiles were born sinners. Instead Paul mentions various sins Jews and Gentiles commited by which they were then made sinners. Not a better place in the Bible to bring up original sin/totall depravity than ROmans chapters 1 and 2 yet the idea is not remotley found there at all!! Paul shows Jew and Gentiles are sinners for having committed transgressions against Gods' laws (Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4) and nothing about how they were born. Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Paul does NOT say they were BORN out of the way or they were BORN unprofitable. Men are born innocent, without sin and BECOME unprofitable.

Therefore we are not born children of the devil but when man intellectually matures learning right from wrong, (Isaiah 7:15-16) and freely chooses to transgress God's law then man GOES out of the way, man BECOMES unprofitable, then becomes child of Satan.

Since Paul says "none are righteous" and "none seek God", yet men are said to be righteous and men are commanded to seek God shows there is a fatal flaw with Calvinism's interpretation of the passage.

You post "Also, it makes perfect sense for God to command man to obey Him when He knows that it is not possible for us to do so in our created state." Yet such makes God un unjust, unfair ogre, it makes God's coomands grievous when they are not, 1 John 5:3. Such an idea gives fuel to atheists. Therefoe such an idea can and should be easily rejected.

1 Cor 12:3 says NOTHING about some miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit miraculously imparting knowledge apart from the written word of the Holy Spirit. I posted a link....
The Holy Spirit "Illumination" Theory: A Critical Review
that shows the fatal flaws with such an idea. Paul said in Ephesians 3:4 "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)". Paul says reading the written word of the Holy Spirit gives understanding. Paul says NOTHING about a miraculous intervention of the Holy Ghost being needed to accomplish understanding.

You post "Butterball1, your belief in Free Will is a "works" based belief system." If you mean by "works based sysetem" one tries to earn/merit God's free gift of salvation then I have NEVER said such. What I have said over and over and the Bible teaches over and over is that man must obey the will of God (Hebrews 5:9) in order to be saved and not one time anywhere in the Bible is man's obedience said to earn God's free gfit. Faith onlyists refuse to acknowledge the simple everyday fact and reality that free gifts can and often times do come with preconditions and meeting the precondition upon a gift does not in anyway earn/merit the free gift. This is why you cannot show out of all the Bible examples of men obeying God's will that their obeidnce is said to have earned God's gift. For they were just meeting a precondition God placed upon His free gift.

FaithWillDo · Jun 23, 2021

Butterball1 said:
Nothing in Romans chapters 1-3 speaks of man being born a sinner.

Dear Butterball1,
You said:
Nothing in Romans chapters 1-3 speaks of man being born a sinner. Paul spends chapters 1 and 2 proving all (Jew and Gentile) have sinned yet NOWHERE ever says Jew or Gentiles were born sinners. Instead Paul mentions various sins Jews and Gentiles commited by which they were then made sinners.

You are right - there is no scripture that says man is "born a sinner" and I do not say that either. You need to re-read what I posted. Mankind was created spiritually "marred" and subject to "vanity". Because of this spiritual defect, we BECOME carnally minded and we BECOME sinners as a result. It happens very quickly to ALL mankind.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.

Because mankind is spiritually marred and subject to vanity, all the attributes of our carnal nature mentioned by Paul in Romans applies to all mankind. We are sinning machines.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

You said:
Therefore we are not born children of the devil but when man intellectually matures learning right from wrong, (Isaiah 7:15-16) and freely chooses to transgress God's law then man GOES out of the way, man BECOMES unprofitable, then becomes child of Satan.

I never said we are BORN children of the devil. I said because we sin, we become children of the devil. Everyone who is "of this world" sins and therefore, become children of the devil.

Also, mankind does not FREELY choose to transgress God's Law because scripture says we were "made subject to vanity, not willingly". God purposely created us in such a way so that we all sin when we are tempted by our carnal natures and/or by Satan. When mankind sins, we do make a choice to sin BUT that choice is not a "free" choice.

The spiritual flaw within mankind was not a mistake by God. God wanted us to sin and experience evil.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has GIVEN to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Eve became carnally minded BEFORE she sinned. She expressed all three causes of sin that come from being carnally minded:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat...

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Sin doesn't cause us to be carnally minded. In fact, just the opposite is true - our carnal minds cause us to sin.

All mankind will experience evil. We are created spiritually flawed and because we are, we all become carnally minded. Because we are carnally minded, Satan can and does deceive the WHOLE world. After Christ calls us out from the world, Satan comes to us and plants His "tares" within each of us so that we become "wicked" for our Day of Evil.

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Christ described the process this way:

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation

The "evil spirits" represent Satan's false truth. Since we remain carnally minded and spiritually blind after being "called out" (Early Rain of the Spirit), we cannot replace our worldly false beliefs with God's truth. Our one "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT (the spirit of anti-christ). The number eight spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. Our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first". Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the Man of Sin. This is when we experience our "Day of Evil" mentioned in Prov 16:4.

You said:
Since Paul says "none are righteous" and "none seek God", yet men are said to be righteous and men are commanded to seek God shows there is a fatal flaw with Calvinism's interpretation of the passage.

I do not ascribe to Calvinist teachings.

Only AFTER God calls us out from the world and gives us "gifts", is any man made "righteous" or have the ability to seek God. The Nation of Israel was "called out" and God did His work within those He chose. In our created, unbelieving state, "none are righteous" and "none seek God".

You said:
You post "Also, it makes perfect sense for God to command man to obey Him when He knows that it is not possible for us to do so in our created state." Yet such makes God un unjust, unfair ogre, it makes God's commands grievous when they are not, 1 John 5:3.

God knows that we can't obey Him in our created state but mankind DOES NOT KNOW THIS TRUTH. Our carnal nature gives man a Pride of Life that causes to us believe that we have the ability to be good, that we can "choose" to be good. For this reason, the Law was given to prove to mankind that we cannot ever be good enough and in fact, we are quite evil. Because of this truth, mankind must be destroyed (spiritually) and be "born again" (spiritually) if we are to ever have a relationship with our Creator. For this purpose, God the Father sent Christ to mankind. His work of making this change within mankind is presently ongoing. During this age, Christ is restoring His chosen Elect to the Father (salvation). In the next age, He will do His work within the rest of mankind. Then all who died "in Adam" will be made alive "in Christ.

You said:
1 Cor 12:3 says NOTHING about some miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit miraculously imparting knowledge apart from the written word of the Holy Spirit.

Again, you misrepresent what I stated. What I said was that the Holy Spirit gives us the ability to understand and accept the written Word. The Word of God is written in the Spiritual language of Christ:

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Truth is taught in bits and pieces - a little here and a little there and those pieces are inserted into scripture in ways that have nothing to do with context. Because of this, the pieces must be assembled much like a jigsaw puzzle before one can come away with a correct understanding.

God's truth is written this way so that mankind CANNOT understand the truth of God. Then to make it even more difficult to understand, the Word of God is written in "another tongue". Scripture is written in Christ's spiritual language. All this is done so that God's truth remains hidden from everyone except those whom Christ chooses to reveal it.

Christ said His words were for those with "ears that can hear" or "eyes that can see". These are "spiritual" eyes and ears that Christ gives His chosen Elect. Once a person receives these "eyes and ears", their Christian paradigm changes and scripture opens up. When this happens, context is not that important.

Even Paul taught in this manner.

1Cor 2:6-7 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (the Elect): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13-14 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Here is an example:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Did Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, you will likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be FALSE. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a “symbol” or “type” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

From this verse, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Mat 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.

Here the symbol of the Sword represents the Word of God and the Word of God is Christ. Christ is teaching on salvation - when Christ comes to us, He destroys our Old Man (carnal nature) and then gives life to a New Man in Christ. This is being "born again".

To correctly understand scripture, it must be understood spiritually. For this type of understanding to occur, we must first understand that the words used in scripture do not carry the same meaning as taught by man’s wisdom (1Cor 2:13). Christ’s words are spirit and we are told to understand their spiritual meaning by comparing them with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture. We must compare spiritual with spiritual. We are to also keep in mind that “the sum of God’s Word is truth”.

So when can a believer understand God's Word?

In these Mark 8:15-21, Christ gives His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes that the blind man remains carnally minded. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually blind.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Called and Chosen believer. We can now know that the blind man is one of Christ’s Elect, a First Fruit of the harvest of mankind.

You said:
What I have said over and over and the Bible teaches over and over is that man must obey the will of God (Hebrews 5:9) in order to be saved and not one time anywhere in the Bible is man's obedience said to earn God's free gfit. Faith onlyists refuse to acknowledge the simple everyday fact and reality that free gifts can and often times do come with preconditions and meeting the precondition upon a gift does not in anyway earn/merit the free gift. This is why you cannot show out of all the Bible examples of men obeying God's will that their obeidnce is said to have earned God's gift.

What is the difference between "obeying the will of God" and "man's obedience". Aren't those the same thing???

No where in scripture does it say "free gifts can and often times do come with preconditions and meeting the precondition upon a gift does not in anyway earn/merit the free gift". This is a teaching of man. Here is what scripture teaches:

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Because all mankind in their created spiritual condition CANNOT seek after God or understand His Word, it is necessary for Christ to come to us first. When He comes, it is without our invitation (He comes "suddenly" to His temple). At that time, He does His work within us and gives us His spiritual gifts (Faith and the earnest of the Spirit). This event is called the Early Rain when an unbeliever is Called Out from the World. This is how the church is created by Christ.

ONLY AFTER Christ gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit can we call Jesus "Lord". Before that time, we cannot make a "choice" to accept Him or to even seek to know Him. But once Christ puts the Spirit in our hearts, we will no longer call Jesus accursed - we will ONLY call Him "Lord".

Paul is the pattern. Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road and gave Paul the Holy Spirit. Christ did not ask Paul for permission. Paul was not even aware that Christ had given him the Spirit. And as with all others who are Called Out, Christ's gift of the Spirit cannot be rejected either.

We know that the Spirit was within Paul because Paul called Jesus "Lord" and Paul became obedient to Christ (what will you have me do?).

Most Christians probably aren't aware of when they received the Spirit either. They just know that they made a "decision" to accept Christ. What they don't know is that the Spirit was already within them before they made that decision. Without the Spirit, they could not seek after Christ or make a decision to call Him "Lord". The "decision" is the evidence that Christ had already come to them and did His work within them. What I have just stated is how Christ saves us. It is 100% His work and is without any "works" or "decisions" on our part.

You said:
For they were just meeting a precondition God placed upon His free gift.

This belief is a "work" which Christ rejects and which causes a believer to "fall away".

Joe

Mark Quayle · Jun 23, 2021

Butterball1 said:
The issue is if God ALONE decides which men will and will not be saved. If such were the case then God ALONE is 100% culpable for for those saved and lost. How can man have culpability for what is 100% out of his own control, culpabile for what God has 100% control over? He cannot.

God alone decides who will be saved, (or do you think we assisted in that decision before the foundation of the world?), and as a result we also decide to repent, submit and pursue Christ. Or do you not believe Scripture?

Butterball1 said:
The fact God gives men commands (as the commad to believe, Acts 16:31) does imply both ability and responsibility. The fact men do not keep God's command does not imply inability man was born with but a choice man willfully makes to not obey. 1 John 5:3 God's commands are not grevious. If God gave commands IMPOSSIBLE for man to keep then those commands certainly would be grevious. Only evil kings gave grevious commands men were not able to eep, (Exodus 5:5-14). Therefore having man born with a totally depraved nature unable to do right then have God condemn them for how they were born is total injustice on God's part.

So you don't believe Romans 8:5-8 —"5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

Butterball1 said:
Free will is simply having the ability to make a choice between two or more options, which man does possess, Joshua 24;15. Yet those free will choices are not made in a vacuum from from influence, good or evil. Yet the end choice one makes, regardless of influence, he still is responsible for his own choices and God justly holds man accountable for those free will choices.

If free will is only having the ability to make a choice between two or more options, then yes of course we have freewill. But most people, as soon as you say that, somehow use it to mean it is uncaused, entirely (or mostly) spontaneous. Of course we choose. Who says we don't choose? We do have will, and are responsible for our choices. There is no implication there at all that God does not cause our choices to be what they are.

Butterball1 said:
But if man were born totally depraved then he has no such free will choice to choose between 2 or more options but can only choose to sin. Again that has God UNJUSTLY conemning man for an inability man would be born with. Nor does God "cause" men to make the choices men to for that again violate free will (which God does not do) and makes GOd an unjust ofre in causing men to choose to sin then punish men for the sin God 'caused' men to choose to commit.

See? There you go. Now free will means something more, to you, than merely having the ability to choose. What's worse, you use language like 'violating free will' as if it had any meaning.

Logic, again. Do you agree that man's choices are caused? Does not the law of causality imply that everything is caused except first cause?

You cannot show how God causing all things for his own purposes makes it unjust for him to condemn his creatures for their acts of rebellion against him. You can only assert that it is so. I assume you think so because in your gospel, the main tenet is "God does not violate our free will", i.e. "we thumbed a ride on the gospel train."

How does total depravity imply no ability to freely choose according to one's will? If the will is totally depraved, guess what one wills to choose.

FaithWillDo · Jun 24, 2021

Butterball1 said:
Nothing in Romans chapters 1-3 speaks of man being born a sinner. Paul spends chapters 1 and 2 proving all (Jew and Gentile) have sinned yet NOWHERE ever says Jew or Gentiles were born sinners. Instead Paul mentions various sins Jews and Gentiles commited by which they were then made sinners. Not a better place in the Bible to bring up original sin/totall depravity than ROmans chapters 1 and 2 yet the idea is not remotley found there at all!! Paul shows Jew and Gentiles are sinners for having committed transgressions against Gods' laws (Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4) and nothing about how they were born. Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Paul does NOT say they were BORN out of the way or they were BORN unprofitable. Men are born innocent, without sin and BECOME unprofitable.

Therefore we are not born children of the devil but when man intellectually matures learning right from wrong, (Isaiah 7:15-16) and freely chooses to transgress God's law then man GOES out of the way, man BECOMES unprofitable, then becomes child of Satan.

Since Paul says "none are righteous" and "none seek God", yet men are said to be righteous and men are commanded to seek God shows there is a fatal flaw with Calvinism's interpretation of the passage.

You post "Also, it makes perfect sense for God to command man to obey Him when He knows that it is not possible for us to do so in our created state." Yet such makes God un unjust, unfair ogre, it makes God's coomands grievous when they are not, 1 John 5:3. Such an idea gives fuel to atheists. Therefoe such an idea can and should be easily rejected.

1 Cor 12:3 says NOTHING about some miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit miraculously imparting knowledge apart from the written word of the Holy Spirit. I posted a link....
The Holy Spirit "Illumination" Theory: A Critical Review
that shows the fatal flaws with such an idea. Paul said in Ephesians 3:4 "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)". Paul says reading the written word of the Holy Spirit gives understanding. Paul says NOTHING about a miraculous intervention of the Holy Ghost being needed to accomplish understanding.

You post "Butterball1, your belief in Free Will is a "works" based belief system." If you mean by "works based sysetem" one tries to earn/merit God's free gift of salvation then I have NEVER said such. What I have said over and over and the Bible teaches over and over is that man must obey the will of God (Hebrews 5:9) in order to be saved and not one time anywhere in the Bible is man's obedience said to earn God's free gfit. Faith onlyists refuse to acknowledge the simple everyday fact and reality that free gifts can and often times do come with preconditions and meeting the precondition upon a gift does not in anyway earn/merit the free gift. This is why you cannot show out of all the Bible examples of men obeying God's will that their obeidnce is said to have earned God's gift. For they were just meeting a precondition God placed upon His free gift.

Dear Butterball1,
I wanted to expand on the point I made concerning how Christ saves us. As I said, His decision to come to each of us and to give us the gift of the Holy Spirit is without mankind's asking Him to do it.

God doesn't even come to us and ask us for permission . God knows what is best for mankind so He acts without our permission.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.

Since God created mankind "subject to vanity", without our agreement, then why do you believe He needs our agreement to make us into a child of God?

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

As the above verses says, God does not ask anyone for permission to do anything. He is God and He does as He pleases. He made us marred without our permission and He will make us into a child of God without our permission.

Here is how God operates:

2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Joe

Navair2 · Jul 1, 2021

Butterball1 said:
Men are born innocent, without sin and BECOME unprofitable.

" The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." ( Psalms 58:3 ).

FaithWillDo said:
You are right - there is no scripture that says man is "born a sinner"

Not in those exact words, I would agree.

Mark Quayle · Jul 1, 2021

Butterball1 said:
Men are born innocent, without sin and BECOME unprofitable.

Navair2 said:
" The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." ( Psalms 58:3 ).

FaithWillDo said:
there is no scripture that says man is "born a sinner"

Navair2 said:
Not in those exact words, I would agree.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

FaithWillDo · Jul 2, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Dear Mark,
This verse is speaking on the certainty of sin because mankind is spiritually "marred". Then coupled with a physical body, we quickly sin.

Sin is a act, not a state of being from birth. A person will become "sinful" but only after they commit an act of sin.

Also, our physical body is not "sin" either. Christ came in a physical body and became a "sin offering" but He never sinned. He was not "made sin".

1Pet 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

The physical body is a source of temptations, but in and of itself without our spirit, it is just a lump of flesh.

MANKIND
BODY + "MARRED" SPIRIT = A LIVING SOUL WHO SINS

CHRIST
BODY + PERFECT SPIRIT = A LIVING SOUL WHO DOES NOT SIN

Christ's ongoing "work" is changing all mankind's "marred spirit" into a "perfect Spirit". This is conversion. After our conversion, upon our resurrection from the grave, He will give us a perfect body to go with our perfect Spirit. Then our salvation will be complete.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Joe

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