Why Some Early Christians Did Not Keep Sunday because of Pagan or Sun Worship

BobRyan

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Who said Jesus broke the Sabbath? Wasn't it the very same people who murdered Him? How can they be an authority on what it means to keep God's law when murder lived in their heart?

Amen! this is a key point in the discussion. When one finds that they must join Christ's accusers to make their case - that is a "clue" they have adopted some form of doctrinal error.
 
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BobRyan

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Noticed the wording Mrs. White used "all" Christians kept Sabbath between at least the first two centuries (notice the phrase first centuries—i.e. at least between after the resurrection of Jesus and 200 A.D). How can she make a statement that all Christians kept Saturday? You have to be omniscient or God revealed to you via direct revelation of this reality. If that's the case Mrs. White is saying that the Christians that kept Sunday in the first centuries weren't Christian.


1. There were no Christians keeping Sunday as the Sabbath in the first century. The term "Sabbath" in the NT is always for Saturday and many examples of both Jews and gentiles coming back Sabbath after Sabbath for more gospel preaching. In fact in Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath"
2. It is doubtful that there were any Christians keeping Sunday as the Sabbath in the 2nd and many if not all still keeping Saturday as the Sabbath. Though you can find some indication that by the middle of the 2nd century some were also observing week-day-1 in some fashion.
3. Even in the most extreme histories - the Sabbath was being kept in some form or another according to the documents we have so far - no matter if they were gradually (in the 2nd or 3rd century) adopting a Sunday observance as well.

So it is unclear to me that your statement is providing a case that the Apostles or the first century saints in any case were ceasing to observe Saturday as the Sabbath.
 
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BobRyan

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God's law is now written on our hearts.

as was the case in the OT - as Jeremiah points out Jer 31:31-33 ... unchanged in Hebrews 8:6-11
Thus Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in Matthew 17 - in glory, under that ONE Gospel that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

I don't care how much people seek to obey the law. the reality is that no one can.

In Romans 8:4-10 Paul says that your statement is true of the wicked, of the lost... but is not true of the saints. Of the wicked Paul says "they do not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" in those verses. You make that case as well - but you make it as if you think there are not saved Christians, only the wicked, only the lost. Why do that?
 
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Ken Rank

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My position @BobRyan is that the law that was on stone will be placed on the heart (Ezekiel 11:19). I also don't believe that work is complete yet. Perhaps that work starts when we come in faith and join into the family of God, but the fullness of that work is done at His return... part of the incorruption we put on, the being perfected. His law IN US... probably in our DNA... we would be forever unable to displease Him. IMHO :)
 
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BobRyan

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Aussie Pete

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as was the case in the OT - as Jeremiah points out Jer 31:31-33 ... unchanged in Hebrews 8:6-11
Thus Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in Matthew 17 - in glory, under that ONE Gospel that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8



In Romans 8:4-10 Paul says that your statement is true of the wicked, of the lost... but is not true of the saints. Of the wicked Paul says "they do not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" in those verses. You make that case as well - but you make it as if you think there are not saved Christians, only the wicked, only the lost. Why do that?
If Christians can obey the law, then they do not need Christ. If you can live the perfect life that pleases God by your own obedience, good for you. I cannot. Unbelievers don't even want to keep God's law. Paul said that the Law brought him undone - he could not stop coveting, which is a heart issue, not outward observance. Lord Jesus is my life. As I am led by Him, following His leading in my spirit man, I am pleasing God. It is NOT by my might or my power. God does not give me the ability to obey Him. He gives me Christ and it is He who is all that God requires of me. I've said before that I could not obey the Sabbath law even if I'd known what it was. The military does not stop on weekends. I could not leave as I had signed a contract. I sought ways out, to no avail. I finally escaped after 9 years when God opened a door for me.
Stick with your legalism. I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
 
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BobRyan

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Paul says this --

Rom 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
1 John 5:3 "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"
Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

If Christians can obey the law, then they do not need Christ. If you can live the perfect life that pleases God by your own obedience, good for you.

Did you just insert "apart from Christ" and "apart from the Spirit" into those texts above?
 
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Gary K

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God's law is now written on our hearts. The Law Giver is also the Law keeper. I don't care how much people seek to obey the law. the reality is that no one can. You can't even get agreement on what the law means. Follow the leading of the Spirit. There are three commandments that matter. Love God, Love your neighbour and the new commandment, love the brethren. It's the royal law of love, not slavish obedience to a set of rules. You can't reason with a stone. For five years I had no way of keeping a Saturday or Sunday sabbath. According to Law, I'm should be a dead man. I'm glad to agree that I'm worthy of death. I'm even more delighted to know that Lord Jesus died my death for me. Forget rules and regulations. Love God, love the brethren and you won't go wrong.

Many Christians want to put grace in a straightjacket. No, grace is not a licence to sin. Anyone who loves to sin is not born again. But I wonder just how saved some of the legalists are.

If God's law is written in your heart, meaning by heart that God's law is written at the very core of your spiritual being, why is it impossible to obey for it is the very core of who you are? And if you are following the Spirit, and the Spirit is living within you, why do you disagree with Paul's conclusion of what it means to walk, live with, the power of the Spirit?

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Paul right there says to walk with the Spirit makes one's life to be such that one breaks no law, which includes God's law. That is not legalism. That is a living breathing relationship with God that causes us to follow God's law through the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what SDA's actually teach. That righteousness works through, and is created by, faith. A faith that changes the sinful life into a life in harmony with God and His law.

What Paul is saying is that if I claim to live by the Spirit 100% of the time then I am deceiving myself if my life does not reflect that reality. John confirms this in 1John 3:6 for he said, whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not. The only conclusion we can come to from these words of Paul and John is that the problem lies with us. That we do not abide at all times in Jesus, through the Holy Spirit's presence in our lives. We're on again, off again, abiders when and if we still knowingly sin.

The above is how Jesus lived His life here on earth for David tells us this in Psalm 45:7 in his prophecy concerning the Messiah to which he looked forward. The phrase, oil of gladness, that he used is symbolic of the Holy Spirit. So, if Jesus who took on human nature could live a sinless life for his entire life we are capable of living the same way if we will constantly make the same decisions Jesus did to follow God in everything for Jesus said He did only what His Father told Him to do.

Our problem with sin is because, and I apply this to myself as scripture tells me I must, we are not wholly consecrated to God. We like sin. We are born into it. It is our natural state. However, Jesus came to "save His people from their sin". He didn't come to save us in sin, but from sin. Our sin does not somehow become righteousness when we accept Jesus. But our lives can and should become righteous and we should not be lawbreakers through the power and motivation provided by the Holy Spirit living within us. This is why Jesus told Nicodemus, and through His telling Nicodemus tells us, ye must be born again, and that the effects of the Spirit will be made manifest in our lives. We will be made into law keepers instead of law breakers, not through our own power and initiative, but through the power and initiative of God, for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to do His good pleasure.

How does the Sabbath fit into this? Exodus 31:13 tells us that the Sabbath, when we keep it, that we are acknowledging that it is God who sanctifies us. Ezekiel tells us the exact same thing in Ezekiel 20:12:
12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.

Verse 20 says the same thing, that Sabbath is the sign of us understanding and acknowledging that it is God who changes our lives. In other words keeping the day that God declared to be holy, not one that we declared to be holy, is a sign of our gratitude towards God for His goodness, power, and love with which He pursues and saves us from ourselves. I find gratitude to be a very positive attribute because it shows that we are responding in a positive way towards someone who is doing us favors, unmerited favors especially. I don't find gratitude to be legalistic in any way, shape, or form. I find it to be a heartfelt response to the love shown toward us.
 
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Gary K

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If Christians can obey the law, then they do not need Christ. If you can live the perfect life that pleases God by your own obedience, good for you. I cannot. Unbelievers don't even want to keep God's law. Paul said that the Law brought him undone - he could not stop coveting, which is a heart issue, not outward observance. Lord Jesus is my life. As I am led by Him, following His leading in my spirit man, I am pleasing God. It is NOT by my might or my power. God does not give me the ability to obey Him. He gives me Christ and it is He who is all that God requires of me. I've said before that I could not obey the Sabbath law even if I'd known what it was. The military does not stop on weekends. I could not leave as I had signed a contract. I sought ways out, to no avail. I finally escaped after 9 years when God opened a door for me.
Stick with your legalism. I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

This is an utter fallacy. If I keep the law perfectly from this second onward in my life is my past sinful life justified by my current law keeping? I don't think you come close believing that. I certainly do not. No matter how perfectly I keep the law from now on out I am still a sinner in need of Christ's life, death, and resurrection.

However, you're also wrong on a second front. It is through our relationship with Jesus that we have access to the Holy Spirit living within us. If we break that relationship with Jesus, who is God, we are also breaking our lifeline to the Holy Spirit, who is God, and it is only through the power of the Spirit in our lives that we are made capable of living in accordance with God's law. For it is God who worketh within you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Scripture soundly refutes your argument.
 
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Albion

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This is an utter fallacy. If I keep the law perfectly from this second onward in my life is my past sinful life justified by my current law keeping? I don't think you come close believing that. I certainly do not. No matter how perfectly I keep the law from now on out I am still a sinner in need of Christ's life, death, and resurrection.
Given that scenario, you're right. But the bigger point is that no one CAN keep the Law perfectly, so a Savior is the only "out."

However, you're also wrong on a second front. It is through our relationship with Jesus that we have access to the Holy Spirit living within us. If we break that relationship with Jesus, who is God, we are also breaking our lifeline to the Holy Spirit, who is God, and it is only through the power of the Spirit in our lives that we are made capable of living in accordance with God's law.
No. While there have been groups at different times in Christian history who have held to a view something like that one, there is no doubt that the normal view among Christians has always been that the HS is imparted to us through the Sacraments that Christ ordained.
 
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Aussie Pete

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This is an utter fallacy. If I keep the law perfectly from this second onward in my life is my past sinful life justified by my current law keeping? I don't think you come close believing that. I certainly do not. No matter how perfectly I keep the law from now on out I am still a sinner in need of Christ's life, death, and resurrection.

However, you're also wrong on a second front. It is through our relationship with Jesus that we have access to the Holy Spirit living within us. If we break that relationship with Jesus, who is God, we are also breaking our lifeline to the Holy Spirit, who is God, and it is only through the power of the Spirit in our lives that we are made capable of living in accordance with God's law. For it is God who worketh within you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Scripture soundly refutes your argument.
I think you are replying to an entirely different post. By the way, a believer's sin does not break relationship. Even the prodigal remained the son. Sin does break fellowship. The moment that sin is confessed, fellowship is restored.
 
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Gary K

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Given that scenario, you're right. But the bigger point is that no one CAN keep the Law perfectly, so a Savior is the only "out."


No. While there have been groups at different times in Christian history who have held to a view something like that one, there is no doubt that the normal view among Christians has always been that the HS is imparted to us through the Sacraments that Christ ordained.

Where does the Bible say we cannot keep the law? It says we are all sinners, but I've never seen a Bible text saying, explicitly, that no can keep the law through the power of the Holy Spirit. In fact there in Galatians 5:22 and 1John 3:6 it says exactly the opposite of that. Paul says the fruit of the Spirit breaks no law. John says that whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not. Those are very powerful statements that contradict your assertion.

What does the tradition of have to do with truth? Jesus condemned the Pharisees for relying on their traditions rather than scripture. And what I'm pointing out is scriptural. It's not based upon man made tradition. It's based upon the word of God. In fact the Word of God told us to "be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect". Jesus said that the Pharisees were not wrong in their law keeping, but that they had forgotten the weightier matters of judgment, mercy, and faith. He went on to say they should done both. Matthew 23:23 Keeping the law is not bad in and of itself. But keeping the law without judgment, mercy, and faith is bad. It's a major distinction.

Jesus also gave us the analogy of the good tree and the corrupt tree. The corrupt tree cannot bear good fruit, and the good tree cannot bear bad fruit. Matthew 7:17,18 So what He said goes right along with 1John 3. Whosever abideth in Him sinneth not. So does His example of the Pharisees keeping the outside of the cup clean but failing to clean the inside of the cup. This once again is a reference to living through the power of Spirit which cleanses the inside of the cup. It's an analogy for trusting God to sanctify us. The Pharisees imagined they could clean themselves sufficiently by regulating their outside behavior. That doesn't change the heart, but a changed heart also regulates the outside behavior for it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles us.

The problem lies within our lack of consecration and our on and off again abiding in God. God has more than enough power to change us but He will never go against our choices. It ought to be a given among all Christians that God is larger than, and infinitely more powerful than, sin. Sin originated in a finite being, not an infinite being. Therefore it has finite strength, not the infinite strength of God.

Jesus told us through His healing of the two blind men that the results of our interaction with Him will be according to our faith. If we don't believe He can heal us from sin then we won't be healed. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The exact opposite is also true. With faith we can please God. It's the only way we can please God. If we don't believe that God can heal us from sin then it's impossible for Him to do so. If we do believe He has the power and desire to heal us He not only can, He will. That's the point of Jesus coming to earth, to save us from our sins.

Why did so many Israelites fail to make it to the promised land? Because of unbelief. We are plainly told that in Hebrews. And the journey to the promised land is a spiritual allegory of the path to heaven. It is God taking us out of Egypt, unbelief and sin, and leading us to righteousness and heaven. The only way to make the trip is by faith. Unbelief brought sin and death to the Israelites who indulged in it and as Hebrews says their carcasses were left to rot in the wilderness. So what does faith bring us? Just the opposite. Righteousness and life. Not pretend righteousness in which we think we our sins are now made righteous, but real righteousness in which we actually obey God and our past is forgiven.

When was Abraham justified? When he obeyed God and went to Mount Moriah to sacrifice his only son. How did Abraham express his faith in that experience? He told Isaac that God Himself would provide them a lamb if they just kept on believing and actually doing what God asked. And did God provide that sacrificial offering? Yes. God told Abraham that his example would be the inspiration for us. And what was Abraham's behavior after many failures? That he trusted God implicitly so that he was willingly to give up his child of promise upon the request of God.
 
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Gary K

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I think you are replying to an entirely different post. By the way, a believer's sin does not break relationship. Even the prodigal remained the son. Sin does break fellowship. The moment that sin is confessed, fellowship is restored.

So, the reply function here on CT is mistaken as to who I was replying to?

As to your second statement, tell that to Judas. His clinging to sin broke the relationship between he and Jesus.

What did Jesus say about Judas?
John 6: 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Remember, Jesus gave Judas the power to work miracles.

Also look at Balaam's life. He was once a prophet of God to whom God spoke directly. What was his end?
Numbers 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

Balaam's relationship with God was destroyed. He ended up going to war against God's people.

What does the NT say about him?
Jude 1: 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

The name Core here is referring to Korah, of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. What happened to Korah? The story is told in Numbers 16. God's solution to the sin of Korah, Dathan and Abiram was their extermination. He caused the earth to open up and swallow them. Did sin end only their fellowship? No. It ended their relationship with God. He completely rejected them.

How about Cain?
Genesis 4: 9 ¶And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.*n8
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.*n9
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

By Cain's sin he was banished from before God. Is that only an end to fellowship? No. It is also the end of the relationship between Cain and God.

It's true that God doesn't end our relationship with Him over our inadvertent sins and when we are overcome by temptation. But, it's another thing altogether when once we know the goodness of God we choose our sin over God. That ends the relationship between us.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
 
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