Worship of the Eucharist (Graven Image)

reddogs

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I did not know this..
"Eucharistic Adoration, Eucharistic Devotion, Perpetual Adoration
“They speak about the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine. Things relating to it are called eucharistic. A consecrated communion wafer is called a host. Hosts that are left over after Mass are kept in a tabernacle, (a large, ornate container that can be locked). When hosts are in the tabernacle, a candle is lit. This enables Catholics to know that consecrated hosts are inside, so they can kneel and pray in front of the tabernacle as a form of eucharistic devotion. The tabernacle also protects the hosts by making it difficult to steal them.

When I was a Catholic, I sometimes attended special services called Adoration
of the Blessed Sacrament
. A large consecrated host was put in a monstrance [example]. (This is a large, ornate, metal container, in the basic shape of a daisy with a stem, plus a base so that it can stand up.) The monstrance looked like it was made of gold. It had a circular chamber in the middle which held a large, round host. The front of the chamber was glass, so you could see the host. Visually it looked like gold rays were coming out of the host.

The priest put the monstrance on the altar. We worshiped the host, believing
that it was Jesus. There were special prayers and special songs…At the end
of the service, we had Benediction. The priest held the monstrance and made the
sign of the cross with it. We believed that Jesus Christ Himself was blessing us.”
—Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)

When this adoration is, twenty-four hours a day, it is called perpetual adoration.

“…the host is comparable to a blazing fire whose flames spread out like rays all round it.’—Pere Teilhard, Mon Univers

Eucharistic Adoration and the sun god
The Eucharistic adoration or perpetual adoration of the host in the monstrance would seem to have roots in the pagan Worship of a Sun, which has been a part of many cultures throughout history.

The sacrifices offered on the altars of the [pagan] goddess were quite different
…the usual offering was a round cake, the symbol of the Sun. “The thin round cake,” says Wilkinson [“Egyptians”, vol. v. p. 353], “occurs on all altars.” This round cake was of course a symbol, both of the Sun, and of his Son, or incarnation, for the circle represented both the Sun’s disk and “The Seed.”

— John Garnier, “The Worship of the Dead: Or, The Origin and Nature of Pagan Idolatry and its bearing upon the early history of Egypt and Babylonia,” p. 345.."

"Eucharistic adoration is a Eucharistic devotional practice primarily in Western Catholicism, but also to a lesser extent in certain Lutheran and Anglican traditions, in which the Blessed Sacrament is adored by the faithful. This practice may occur either when the Eucharist is exposed, or when it is not publicly viewable because it is reserved in a place such as a church tabernacle.

Adoration is a sign of devotion to and worship of Jesus Christ, who is believed, according to Christian tradition, to be present in body, blood, soul, and divinity, under the appearance of the consecrated host, that is, sacramental bread. From a theological perspective, the adoration is a form of latria, based on the tenet of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament"...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharistic_adoration

We know what the Ten Commandments say on these graven images and its throughout the Bible not just there...

Deuteronomy 5:8
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Psalm 78:58
For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.

Isaiah 21:9
And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.

saiah 42:17
They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.

Jeremiah 51:47
Therefore, behold, the days come, that I will do judgment upon the graven images of Babylon: and her whole land shall be confounded, and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her.

And we see this clear warning..
Acts 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
 
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BobRyan

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Well they claim that the bread turns into Christ Himself as part of the service. So they view this not as worship to container or to bread in a container but to Christ who is apparently still in the form of "bread in a container" as they worship Him. They refer to it as the "real presence" because in their view - it is literally Christ at that moment not container or a portion of bread that represents Christ. In their words they "confect the body, blood, soul and divinity" of Christ in the Eucharist via the priest.

If you talk to Hindus about their practices they usually don't say that the stone image IS their god - simply that it represents him, is sacred and that dishonor done to the image is dishonoring their god etc.
 
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Jipsah

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Eucharistic Adoration and the sun god
The Eucharistic adoration or perpetual adoration of the host in the monstrance would seem to have roots in the pagan Worship of a Sun,
And this assertion seems to be made up from whole cloth simply to support an a priori opinion that the adoration of the host is A Bad Thing. Kind of like me saying that opposition to the adoration of the Host has roots in communist/nazi propaganda (which, afaik, it may be).
Adoration is a sign of devotion to and worship of Jesus Christ, who is believed, according to Christian tradition, to be present in body, blood, soul, and divinity, under the appearance of the consecrated host, that is, sacramental bread.
Got that one right, anyway.
From a theological perspective, the adoration is a form of latria, based on the tenet of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament"...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharistic_adoration
Yep. Of course, Hyper-Protestants know it's just a little ritual snack that one eats occasionally because tradition demands it.
We know what the Ten Commandments say on these graven images and its throughout the Bible not just there
Graven images? Very weird association there, as the Host is neither graven, nor an image. But hey, Them Catholics do it, so it must be bad, and probably heathen. Right?
...Deuteronomy 5:8
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Who engraves the image on the bread?
Psalm 78:58
For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.

Isaiah 21:9
And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.
And here we completely leave the envelope of controlled flight...
-sigh-
 
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Jipsah

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Well they claim that the bread turns into Christ Himself as part of the service.
1 corinthians 11:23-26
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Now your lot "knows" that what He said wasn't what He really meant. But most Christians beg to differ.

Your understanding of what most Christians believe of the presence of our Lord in the Eucharist is both interesting and imaginative.

In their words they "confect the body, blood, soul and divinity" of Christ in the Eucharist via the priest.
In whose words? I'd like an in-context quote on that if you don't mind. Not that I'd ever suspect you of confecting a dubious attribution, or of engaging in a bit of creative editing, but just for my own edification.
If you talk to Hindus about their practices they usually don't say that the stone image IS their god - simply that it represents him, is sacred and that dishonor done to the image is dishonoring their god etc.
And as an expert on Hinduism, you know more about Hindu beliefs than do the Hindus. Rather like you know more about what traditional Christians believe than they themselves do. The fact that you appear to see parallels between Hinduism and the beliefs of most of the world's Christians is very... interesting.
 
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Gary K

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1 corinthians 11:23-26
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Now your lot "knows" that what He said wasn't what He really meant. But most Christians beg to differ.

Your understanding of what most Christians believe of the presence of our Lord in the Eucharist is both interesting and imaginative.


In whose words? I'd like an in-context quote on that if you don't mind. Not that I'd ever suspect you of confecting a dubious attribition, or of engaging in a bit of creative editing, but just for my own edification.

And as an expert on Hinduism, you know more about Hindu beliefs than do the Hindus. Rather like you know more about what traditional Christians believe than they themselves do. The fact that you appear to see parallels between Hinduism and the beliefs of most of the world's Christians is very... interesting.
So do you think Jesus ate and drank His own flesh and blood? That's too weird for me.
 
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Jipsah

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So do you think Jesus ate and drank His own flesh and blood? That's too weird for me.
That's kind of the position the Pharisees took, and why so many of His followers left Him. You must do as you think best.. just as they did.
 
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Gary K

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That's kind of the position the Pharisees took, and why so many of His followers left Him. You must do as you think best.. just as they did.
Nope. The Pharisees refused to accept Jesus as the Son of God. I don't do anything close to that.
 
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Terri Dactyl

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That's kind of the position the Pharisees took, and why so many of His followers left Him. You must do as you think best.. just as they did.
No it isn't. Jesus was alive as a human at Passover, and He was missing none of Himself. It was a symbol. It always has been.Do you not understand the meaning of symbol?
 
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Jipsah

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No it isn't. Jesus was alive as a human at Passover, and He was missing none of Himself. It was a symbol. It always has been.
Ah, so what He really meant was " Take, eat; this is a symbol of my body" and "Drink ye all of it For this is the symbol of my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins", I mean, that had to be what He really meant, right? Otherwise that would have just been too weird, huh?

I'm going with Brother Martin Luther on this one: "I would rather drink pure blood with the Pope, than drink mere wine with the fanatics". I'd modify that to say "with the Pope and the vast majority of the world's Christians."

So yeah, I know wjhat a symbol is. It's a device used to keep the words of Christ from damaging your all-important doctrine. I'm willing to go with what our Lord actually said; even if it a "hard saying".
 
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Jipsah

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Nope. The Pharisees refused to accept Jesus as the Son of God. I don't do anything close to that.
Can't take His word's literally, though; they're just too weird. Jesus said:

48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Here was the common response to it: 52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

But our Lord was quick to explain what He really meant, right? Well, no.
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

That cleared everything up, though, didn't it? Not so you'd notice: 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Ya see, they had the same problem with what He said that y'all do. It was just too weird. "60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

Hasn't gotten any easier, has it?

So it didn't really have anything to do with whether they believed He was the Son of God or not. He just said stuff to them they couldn't process. Same with modern Protestants. "No way He can have meant that literally!

But at His Last Supper before His crucifixion, He said to His disciples: 26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Y'all can take it or leave it, as seems best to you. I'll take Him at His word.
 
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Can't take His word's literally, though; they're just too weird. Jesus said:

48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Here was the common response to it: 52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

But our Lord was quick to explain what He really meant, right? Well, no.
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

That cleared everything up, though, didn't it? Not so you'd notice: 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Ya see, they had the same problem with what He said that y'all do. It was just too weird. "60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

Hasn't gotten any easier, has it?

So it didn't really have anything to do with whether they believed He was the Son of God or not. He just said stuff to them they couldn't process. Same with modern Protestants. "No way He can have meant that literally!

But at His Last Supper before His crucifixion, He said to His disciples: 26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Y'all can take it or leave it, as seems best to you. I'll take Him at His word.
So you actually don't believe that the wine and unleavened bread don't become the literal fleshy and blood of Jesus? You believe like I do that they are symbolic?
 
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Jipsah

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So you actually don't believe that the wine and unleavened bread don't become the literal fleshy and blood of Jesus? You believe like I do that they are symbolic?
The wine and bread become the literal flesh and blood of Jesus. End of.
 
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Gary K

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The wine and bread become the literal flesh and blood of Jesus. End of.
OK. From my perspective you consider eating the actual flesh and blood of Jesus to be not be cannabilism. Ironic how it stays in the form, shape and texture of unleavened bread though and the wine doesn't turn to actual blood. Like I said it's all symbolic.
 
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Jipsah

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OK. From my perspective you consider eating the actual flesh and blood of Jesus to be not be cannabilism.
You may consider it cannabilism if you like; I couldn't conceivably care any less. Our Lord said "Take, eat this is My Body". That means it's His Body, and He's instructing us to eat it. Too weird for you? Your problem, not mine.
Ironic how it stays in the form, shape and texture of unleavened bread though and the wine doesn't turn to actual blood.
You may want to argue that point with our Lord, He's the one Who said it, after all.
Like I said it's all symbolic.
Sure. that's the way to get around anything God said that you don't want to deal with. That's how your lot gets around lots of stuff in the Bible that runs counter to your denominational doctrines. You change the meanings of words, you ignore some passages of Scripture altogether and symbolicize others, and sometimes just plain old make stuff up.


So no, it's not all symbolic. Our Lord, Who spoke the universe into being, said "Take, eat, This Is My Body". Dance around it all you like, God has spoken, and y'all are taking the Pharisee line that "it's just too weird".

Better y'all than me, mate.

Ironic how it stays in the form, shape and texture of unleavened bread though and the wine doesn't turn to actual blood. Like I said it's all symbolic.
You may want to argue that with our Lord at your first opportunity
 
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You may consider it cannabilism if you like; I couldn't conceivably care any less. Our Lord said "Take, eat this is My Body". That means it's His Body, and He's instructing us to eat it. Too weird for you? Your problem, not mine.

You may want to argue that point with our Lord, He's the one Who said it, after all.

Sure. that's the way to get around anything God said that you don't want to deal with. That's how your lot gets around lots of stuff in the Bible that runs counter to your denominational doctrines. You change the meanings of words, you ignore some passages of Scripture altogether and symbolicize others, and sometimes just plain old make stuff up.


So no, it's not all symbolic. Our Lord, Who spoke the universe into being, said "Take, eat, This Is My Body". Dance around it all you like, God has spoken, and y'all are taking the Pharisee line that "it's just too weird".

Better y'all than me, mate.


You may want to argue that with our Lord at your first opportunity
I can see that it's better to back out of this dicussion than to keep on with endless wrangling with you as neither on of us will change our minds.

Have a good day.
 
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If the sacrifice of Christ was made ONCE, why does He have to be sacrificed over and over?
Like being married--the ring is a symbol--you don't have to get married over and over--ya got married once.

I don't understand why Jesus is called a victim, and why we can parade around with a piece of him in a star shaped thingie, or how a priest has to power to make the bread a real presence
 
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Jipsah

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If the sacrifice of Christ was made ONCE, why does He have to be sacrificed over and over?
Like being married--the ring is a symbol--you don't have to get married over and over--ya got married once.

I don't understand why Jesus is called a victim, and why we can parade around with a piece of him in a star shaped thingie, or how a priest has to power to make the bread a real presence
In other words, there are just a ton of things that Roman Catholics, and or traditional Christians do that You Just Don't Understand. That's OK, I was there once myself.
 
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reddogs

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No it isn't. Jesus was alive as a human at Passover, and He was missing none of Himself. It was a symbol. It always has been.Do you not understand the meaning of symbol?
Well some things many cannot see or understand..
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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