Why so little healing where we can see it?

[Bob Carabbio]

"I was the biggest doubter in the world regarding healing UNTIL I had the revelation from God about it.

Hmm - must be an echo in here. That's exactly what I said.

"After that, I KNEW."

Duh!!! When you have God's WORD TO YOU, then you can proceed in faith.

"Examples from the Word are abundant about God blessing the one who hearkens according to the Word."

Sure and we all know 'em, but you've apparently forgotten your "Opening volley" already (remember the "revelation" thing??).

I'm dying of Coronary artery disease, and I HAVE NO "Revelation" that God has any intention of making that go away, so nothing to claim. Simple as that. On the other hand they did give me 12 years - 20 years ago - so not going too badly.

"*A "messenger" is not a disease"

Who said it was???

Can you tell me why Jesus would lie about believers laying hands on the sick and they will recover (if that was not His intent)?"

Does everybody YOU lay hands on "Recover"??

I didn't think so.

 

[TasManOfGod]

If only Jesus and others had of known that when some of us laid hands on the sick or believed that by His stripes they would be healed - but they remained with symtoms of sickness, then perhaps they would not have made their "erroneous" statements
*removes tongue from cheek*

 

[Alive_Again]

"I was the biggest doubter in the world regarding healing UNTIL I had the revelation from God about it.

Hmm - must be an echo in here. That's exactly what I said.

The revelation was along the lines of what I and others are saying about healing. That it is God's perfect will for ALL to be able to be healed. That's nowhere near what you're saying. When the light came on, I didn't have to be concerned about whether or not He was just talking about me. I wasn't ill or sick. I was seeking to know if by covenant provision, that healing was available for EVERYONE. (That's good news!)

"After that, I KNEW."

Duh!!! When you have God's WORD TO YOU, then you can proceed in faith.

The difference here is that you don't believe it is available to you. Obviously because you haven't received the revelation on this.

"Examples from the Word are abundant about God blessing the one who hearkens according to the Word."

Sure and we all know 'em, but you've apparently forgotten your "Opening volley" already (remember the "revelation" thing??).

The blessing in this case, particularly for you, would be to get healed. The revelation needed, is that God wanted to heal you, and that He already paid the price for it. That it is available for you, if you meet the conditions.

I'm dying of Coronary artery disease, and I HAVE NO "Revelation" that God has any intention of making that go away, so nothing to claim. Simple as that.

I'm sorry that is the case. Even those who receive revelation that it is for them, can also die in their disease (not my intent for you to be sure). I've heard and known them, but they apparently did not repent, or they knowingly made choices in their lives that put them on a track where they could not receive God's best. If we're willing and obedient, we'll eat the fruit of the land. That's our Canaan land it is spiritual blessings that manifest themselves in the physical realm.

"*A "messenger" is not a disease"

Who said it was???

Many people right here in this debate area. They go on about Paul and his thorn as though that is the caveat to healing in covenant that leaves some out of the provision (bad news).

Can you tell me why Jesus would lie about believers laying hands on the sick and they will recover (if that was not His intent)?"

Does everybody YOU lay hands on "Recover"??

This kind of answer points to what people receive or not receive and not that the Word is true all of the time.

The whole point to bringing this up is to demonstrate that Jesus said they WOULD, and that the only reason people don't is because they don't meet the conditions. Of course that puts the responsibility back on us to hear and receive. To correct ourselves if that is the case.

An answer like your response to this basically says that Jesus' Words aren't always true, yet the Word says that they are. Doesn't that want you to really hear from God regarding why you still suffer? I'm not pointing any fingers because we all deserve far worse in the realm of suffering and affliction than we get.

Athough many scoff at people like Hagin, I have learned many things in the Spirit from his experience. One sobering thing he said was that he tried to pray for someone's healing and he heard the Lord speak like He was in the room something along these lines: "Forces put into motion long ago cannot be reversed at this time".

It's important not to scoff because the inheritance of the scoffer is not good and allows these types of situations to exist. (You haven't scoffed specifically about this in this post, but I thought that I would entreat you to consider not doing so, particularly in the light of the seriousness, and how God considers you very precious in His sight).

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"The difference here is that you don't believe it is available to you."

Sure I do. Intellectually, according to the Word, I know it's POTENTIALLY available to me (and everybody else - Isaiah 53 pretty much settles that issue). I said nothing to indicate the contrary, of course.

But I don't have any "revelation"/SPECIFIC FAITH that He HAS healed me (no "Substance", or "Evidence") NOW.

"That it is available for you, if you meet the conditions."

This is a "Job's friends" type of answer. What do YOU think the "Conditions are"?? Are you among those who believes that Job "caused HIS OWN problems" (seems to be a popular false teaching in some WoF paradigms)??

"This kind of answer points to what people receive or not receive and not that the Word is true all of the time."

Your answer is "NO" then - they DON'T ALWAYS get healed when you law hands on 'em. Why not just admit it? We all know that "Healing", when it manifests, normally comes as a "surprise" to both the one prayed for, and the one who ministers, except in the instances when the "Prophetic" is involved (Like Peter and the cripple).

The WORD IS always true, of course. Our INTERPRETATION of the Word according to our paradigms may not be, however. WoF is a "System in development" still.

"Athough many scoff at people like Hagin,"

There are folks that I Don't take seriously (KC for example), but 'ol Dad Hagin isn't one of them. I've found him, when taken as a whole, to be very accurate in what he says. Been listening to him on and off for over 40 years now.

And of course his cited revelation (which I Believe without question) obviously indicates that the person WOULD NOT recover when hands were layed on them - for a SPECIFIC REASON (not given). Dad Hagin was favored that way many times as he relates in his teachings.

SO it's all well and good to tell me I've got to believe that Jesus WOULDN'T "lie about believers laying hands on the sick and they will recover" - and then you go right ahead and indicate that sometimes they won't get healed anyway - and it's THEIR FAULT (the standard Word of Faith disclaimer when it doesn't work).

I ASSUME (for lack of other explanation) that the Lord intends to MAINTAIN ME in my condition because in HIS WISDOM, it's the best possible state for me (with my personality, and weaknesses) to be in now.

It's also a testimony to those watching, that I can continue to work full time as the Chief Engineer for my company (and moonlight for another company) after 13 heart attacks, two open hearts, and 16 stents at the age of 70. It WOULD be more convenient to have a fully operational heart, of course, instead of the 2/3 one I've got - but if He NEVER fixes it - God still heals - according to HIS will.

LIKE Paul's "Thorn" (whatever it was) it was better for Him, AND His ministry to suffer with it than it would have been if it were eliminated. That it wasn't a "Physical condition" is unimportant it was something that bugged the FIRE outta him - that the Lord allowed to remain.

Your "veiled threat" at the end is also typical of the "WoF" genre - a "touch not the Lord's anointed" thing, I guess.

 

[Alive_Again]

"The difference here is that you don't believe it is available to you."

The rest of it is "Just Another" rationalization (among MANY) for why healing generally DOESN'T WORK.

It generally does. It does show that healings can take time, and you have to hang in there by faith.

Sure I do. Intellectually, according to the Word, I know it's POTENTIALLY available to me (and everybody else - Isaiah 53 pretty much settles that issue). I said nothing to indicate the contrary, of course.

(Why healing generally doesn't work.) You've indicated that God hasn't chosen to heal you and that you don't have an ounce of faith that He will.

Intellectually being available to you and you not receiving because of your rationalization that God's best for you is not available to you because of some higher "wisdom". That seems to be contrary to believing it is available to you.

But I don't have any "revelation"/SPECIFIC FAITH that He HAS healed me (no "Substance", or "Evidence") NOW.

You're saying that you don't have harvest faith. If you agree with what God has said, and plant the seed of the Word (promise) in your heart, it will grow and bear fruit. You won't get a harvest immediately. That planting will have a harvest if you don't draw back through unbelief. Also... if you meet the conditions regarding obtaining His blessings. Really, the conditions are heart conditions, and what goes on in our bodies typically is a reflection of what's going on in the heart.

"That it is available for you, if you meet the conditions."

<This is a "Job's friends" type of answer. What do YOU think the "Conditions are"?? Are you among those who believes that Job "caused HIS OWN problems" (seems to be a popular false teaching in some WoF paradigms)??

Jesus said to ask WHAT YOU WILL and you'll receive. The conditions are believing and abiding in His Word and in His love. Also, to forgive. (This is not a Job's thing, it's a Word thing.) What love is, is depicted throughout the Bible, so being a do'er of the Word is the perquisite to receiving.

If God doesn't change and we're not to forget His benefits, and His Word DOES state that we're to judge ourselves and not do things that make for the enemy afflicting us, and we're not receiving that benefit, then something got in the way and it keeping you from receiving.

Your answer is "NO" then - they DON'T ALWAYS get healed when you law hands on 'em. Why not just admit it? We all know that "Healing", when it manifests, normally comes as a "surprise" to both the one prayed for, and the one who ministers,

If you take Jesus' Word about believers laying hands on the sick and they WILL recover, and the recovery is a surprise, then you're saying the fulfillment of God's Word is a surprise?

Realistically, the one receiving prayer has a part in receiving the healing. The passage demonstrates that healing grace is available. We know from the Word that the doubleminded won't receive anything from God. This goes back to having to get the revelation about this and then choosing to appropriate it.

The WORD IS always true, of course. Our INTERPRETATION of the Word according to our paradigms may not be, however.

What if when Jesus said "THEY WILL RECOVER" that they actually would, if they received and did not forfeit the blessing. The "they will recover" is an indication of the healing benefit ready to be manifested by believers for believers. God does heal unbelievers, but generally not unbelieving "believers". Of course you have to submit for the revelation and be willing to put our understanding on the shelf and not speak contrary to the Word.

Been listening to him on and off for over 40 years now.

You do know that He believes every believer can get healed of every disease?

And of course his cited revelation (which I Believe without question) obviously indicates that the person WOULD NOT recover when hands were layed on them - for a SPECIFIC REASON (not given).

This is what I am talking about where believers need to judge themseles. Yes, the secret things belong to the Lord. I suppose people make judgments and cannot enter in to some of their inheritance. It's all about repentance and faith. This is not a "Job's counselors" type of thing. This is a case where God judges a person when they do not judge themselves. I suppose sometimes the undiscerned cause can go back a little ways.

SO it's all well and good to tell me I've got to believe that Jesus WOULDN'T "lie about believers laying hands on the sick and they will recover" - and then you go right ahead and indicate that sometimes they won't get healed anyway - and it's THEIR FAULT (the standard Word of Faith disclaimer when it doesn't work).

That's because God is always faithful to His Word. We're the ones with the problems.

Actually, I would advise you to repent of your judgment about the Word not applying for all believers and submit your uinderstanding to God for some revelation regarding His covenant and how that applies to you for healing. Not that that is enough, you have to appropriate it as well. Since you have already said previously that you have zero faith for healing, then maybe it's time to see about getting some, unless of course, you'd like to rely on medical procedures to be included in your testimony of healing and recovery. I'm not knocking you personally, but it would give God greater glory for you to be healed and for you to get the revelation about this than the alternative.

I ASSUME (for lack of other explanation) that the Lord intends to MAINTAIN ME in my condition because in HIS WISDOM, it's the best possible state for me (with my personality, and weaknesses) to be in now.

(Sigh)

LIKE Paul's "Thorn" (whatever it was) it was better for Him, AND His ministry to suffer with it than it would have been if it were eliminated. That it wasn't a "Physical condition" is unimportant it was something that bugged the FIRE outta him - that the Lord allowed to remain.

Here's the "messenger" thing coming back into play. I'd hate to see a thorn come and steal something out of God's benefit plan for you life.

Your "veiled threat" at the end is also typical of the "WoF" genre - a "touch not the Lord's anointed" thing, I guess.

I said: It's important not to scoff because the inheritance of the scoffer is not good and allows these types of situations to exist. (You haven't scoffed specifically about this in this post, but I thought that I would entreat you to consider not doing so, particularly in the light of the seriousness, and how God considers you very precious in His sight).

I often warn people when I namedrop or when others do because many are quick to judge and I grow weary of reminding people not to bring judgment on themselves.

(I thought that was as loving as I knew to be, and certainly was not a threat.) Why would I do that? The debate thing enables us to air out reasonings about various doctrines and compare them to the Word, not their experience, or even other's experiences. We can learn from them, as long as it doesn't contradict the Word.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"I'd hate to see a thorn come and steal something out of God's benefit plan for you life."

Apparently God wasn't concerned that the "Thorn" would steal anything from Paul's "Benefit plan for HIS life".

I'm not concerned either.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"If only Jesus and others had of known that when some of us laid hands on the sick or believed that by His stripes they would be healed - but they remained with symtoms of sickness, then perhaps they would not have made their "erroneous" statements"

So then everybody that YOU lay hands on is healed then??

 

[TasManOfGod]

"If only Jesus and others had of known that when some of us laid hands on the sick or believed that by His stripes they would be healed - but they remained with symtoms of sickness, then perhaps they would not have made their "erroneous" statements"

So then everybody that YOU lay hands on is healed then??

Of course not - that is why I made the statement. I am not of the opinion as some are that because some do not receive healing then God mustn't want them healed and that the Word means somthing else to what it says.
Hope that clears up my position

 

[Alive_Again]

"I'd hate to see a thorn come and steal something out of God's benefit plan for you life."

Apparently God wasn't concerned that the "Thorn" would steal anything from Paul's "Benefit plan for HIS life".

I'm not concerned either.

If God's benefit plan said it had forgiveness and healing, then if it weren't happening for me, I would be VERY concerned.

I want to get my life totally in order. We respond to God inwardly as He reveals areas of our lives He wants us to turn over to Him. In the course of our living, sometimes before Christ, we make inner vows and judgments that prevent us from knowing the fruit of the Spirit in certain areas or situations. God still loves us, but at the same time our "weaknesses or frailties" seem to reign. These are things that God can change within us and we should groan inwardly for the revelation of God and His sonship to heal and restore. We need to renounce vows and judgments made that go contrary to the Words of Jesus and lay hold on truth like our life depended on it.

Everything in our prayer closet should cry out for this healing and conformity. We cannot make statements contrary to the Word and based on our own experiences and exchange that for seed faith. You need to have faith in the seed and hope in the harvest and its promise. If you rest saying that you have zero faith God is going to heal you, you are making a statement that you have no harvest and thus no confidence in this area.

I really hate that I lay these things out so readily for those who seem to not hunger for them, but are not only confident in them, but boast that it is God's will to be this way. God is a gentleman many times with His people and He will let you stay where you are in your understanding.

We'll try it anyway... Try planting the seed of the Word and repent of judgments made (out loud, verbally) about why healing won't work and why you don't have faith, and why you're ok with that, unless God moves in a sovereign way. Forget not His benefits and agree with them like they are your own and don't waiver in your heart or mouth about it. Keep agreeing with it by declaring what the Word says and meditate on this. Let that seed grow within you. After a while, you become aware that it grows in your garden and it has a harvest day appointed if you don't uproot it, and guard your heart.

Saying: "I don't have a harvest" of healing or "I have zero faith God will heal me" both agree with each other totally. Do something about it and kick the strongholds of that unbelief strengthened by those statements out of your life and if you want a harvest, plant the seed of the Word and watch your mouth and your heart. Let God show you because apart from that, you'll have what you've had and although you're ok with that, you could let God have the glory and you the testimony if He did heal you totally.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I don't mean to cut in on the conversation but I thought I'd add this. Perhaps it involves a measure of unbelief. Case in point, I love my Pastor to death, the man is truly a caring individual who is running a small congregation that has overcome a lot of issues internally to survive as a congregation, but the last time he allowed me to bring the Sunday message I had told him about a vision I had where I saw myself preaching and people were standing all around the altar yelling that they had been healed and his response to me was not to preach a healing message because it may get hopes up and if they aren't healed they could fall away. So perhaps there is a level of unbelief that if a minister calls someone forward in order to minister the power of the Lord in their lives and they aren't healed or touched, that the congregation may leave. It would seem to me that believers would understand and if they left because of something like that, they were never really committed in the first place. I never thought of myself as someone who'd be gifted to bring healing to others, but yet the Lord has gifted me to do such and it is a TREMENDOUSLY AWESOME gift and I praise the Lord for it. I wish we could get to the point of Paul where in mid sermon we just command the lame to walk and the blind to see. Want to talk about revival, I think that could ignite one.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Healings happen in a myriad of ways....

 

[jamadan]

There's a lot of solid information that has been mentioned already, and maybe my point has been made but I missed it. If so, sorry to repeat.

We know that we receive the Holy Spirit and His gifts in a limited measure (anointing) when compared to Jesus who had the Spirit without measure (able to operate in the fullness of the power of the Spirit). In addition, Scripture tells us that we all operate in the gifts in accordance with our level of faith. In my opinion, those two factors, the level of the anointing we carry and the level of faith we operate in, are the biggest reason we don't see more healings.

Years ago, I witnessed a series of meetings with Mario Murillo in which I saw hundreds of legitimate healings. This was to people I knew and so I knew what happened to them afterwards and heard the doctor confirmations so I was able to validate the healings weren't just the typical hyped kind we see often on stage that turn out not to really have happened. I later had the chance to take him out to dinner and asked him this same question - why don't we see more of this kind of real, verifiable healings. His answer always struck me. He said, 'because no one is willing to pay the price to operate at that level'. He was talking about the prayer life required to seek God for the anointing and faith and the sanctification required to hear from the Spirit like that. If more of us would 'eagerly seek after the greater gifts' and lay ourselves on the Cross, we'd see more healings.

 

[Alive_Again]

In my opinion, those two factors, the level of the anointing we carry and the level of faith we operate in, are the biggest reason we don't see more healings.

There is a lot to that. It's not that we don't see more healings, it's that we don't see the effects of them with the natural eye, because healings sometimes take time. They are greatly increased and when a measure of the anointing and faith combines, their is ALWAYS change, whether we can see it or not.

If you go somewhere where someone in moving in the healing anointing and they have been faithful to do this and they have a strong anointing, your faith and that anointing make for a greater restoration.

..so I was able to validate the healings weren't just the typical hyped kind we see often on stage that turn out not to really have happened.

It may seem like hype, but in many cases, the minister is ministering healing in obedience to the Holy Spirit, and it is up to the one receiving it to believe. The minister lays hands with the anointing and he does what he is called to do, even if everyone sits back down looking the same.

...He said, 'because no one is willing to pay the price to operate at that level'. He was talking about the prayer life required to seek God for the anointing and faith and the sanctification required to hear from the Spirit like that.

That's it too. But you've got people like K Kuhlman, who were paying the price, and many people left looking like they came (although they may have had a great work of restoration). It is still up to us to combine our faith with the anointing. We have to believe and not turn loose just because it is not immediate.

I was listening to Kenneth Hagin on the radio this morning and he said he was ministering with a well known evangelist who said you might or might not get healed, I don't know if I believe in that or not! As Kenneth said, you could feel the unbelief breathing down the back of your neck when you prayed and of course no one got healed. Jesus appeared to him and said you'd tell the crowd that He appeared to him and that if they believed in that anointing, and mixed faith with it, that they would be healed. You still have to mix faith with it.

Norvel Hayes had the Lord appear to him in a car and they rode together for almost an hour (if memory serves). Jesus said that He works in atmospheres. He said that you don't have to pray that He'll heal everyone there, because He's willing to heal ALL the people there.

Sing songs about healing and then have a couple of testimonies of healing and then preach the Word about healing and then invite them to come up. He moves in that level of expectation. You have to have hope first and then hearing the Word produces faith.

I personally believe that if you have lively hope, and you're hearing the Word, that sometimes God will drop faith in your heart and if you move forward to touch that anointing, you'll receive. You might not see it right away, but hold fast and walk it out.