"Why should I let you into my heaven?"

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So, 'partial works salvation' is ok? Really???

Look up the word, Grace.

I also believe in grace just fine. I believe we are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace. But Sanctification by the Spirit is another aspect of salvation that takes place after we are saved by God’s grace. They both work in harmony together. For Titus 2:11-12 says that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.
 
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So, 'partial works salvation' is ok? Really???

Look up the word, Grace.

You see grace as an Unconditional Election by God because you are a Calvinist. I see grace as…

God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

To get a more comprehensive picture of salvation, check out this thread here:

The Four Aspects of Salvation.
 
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Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
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First, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is talking about how the gospel calls us to... God has chosen us to salvation THROUGH the Sanctification of the Spirit (Holy living), and a belief of the truth.

“...God hath from the beginning
chosen you to salvation through
sanctification of the Spirit
and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...”
(2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).​

Side Note: The gospel is mentioned clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
You also have to understand that the gospel calls us and it does not force us or compels us to be a certain way. A sales person who calls you does not always convince you of what they are selling just because they called.

Anyways, Just look at the context in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, and it proves that Sanctification of the Spirit is in reference to holy living. Verse 12 gives us the polar opposite of what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says. It states:

“That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,
but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
(2 Thessalonians 2:12).​

#1. Believed not the truth (vs. 12) (is pollar opposite of): Belief of the truth (vs. 13).
#2. Pleasure in unrighteousness (vs. 12) (is pollar opposite of): Sanctification of the Spirit (vs. 13).

Verse 16-17 also confirms this, as well. It states:

“...and hath given us everlasting consolation
and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts,
and stablish you in every good word and work.”
(1 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#1. Good hope through grace (vs. 16) = Belief of the truth (vs. 13).
#2. Every good word and work (vs. 17) = Sanctification of the Spirit (vs. 13).

Second, just because I choose someone does not mean they are saved. For example: Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” (John 6:70). So just because Jesus chose Judas, does not mean Judas was saved in the end. Judas fell by his transgression (Acts of the Apostles 1:25). In fact, Judas being among the twelve was at one point in time a sheep.

“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...” (Matthew 10:5).
“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.” (Matthew 10:16).

For example: It's like coach Rick choosing Bob for the football team. It does not mean Bob is going to win the game just because he was chosen to be on the team by the coach.

I wanted to stress the importance that God has chosen us to live a holy life. But that does not mean we will live a holy life. We have to fight the good fight of faith as a part laying hold on eternal life.

“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.” (1 Timothy 6:12).

Why would Paul tell us to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life if that is an automatic thing of being Calvinistically elected or chosen by God?

Three, then there is 2 Thessalonians 2:10 (Which is the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

2 Thessalonians 2:10 blows away Calvinism to pieces. For it says:

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).​

Paul says that those who perish are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth. The verse does not say that they perish because they were not elected by God. Also, the verse says that they (those who perish) MIGHT be saved. In Calvinism: There is no “might be saved.”

Here is another bonus verse that blows away Calvinism.

Jesus says in Luke 13:3,

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3).​

Jesus is giving a conditional statement here in that if they don't repent, they will perish.
The thing is that in Calvinism: The Non-Elect cannot repent, and the Elect are never in danger of really ever perishing. So either Jesus was not aware of Calvinistic doctrine or the Calvinist really does not really believe what our Lord actually taught in this particular instance.
Again. Not all uses of the words translated, "sanctification", are referring to the ongoing process, but sometimes the original, one-time, imputation put on us at regeneration. You have not shown otherwise.

You say, "The thing is that in Calvinism: The Non-Elect cannot repent, and the Elect are never in danger of really ever perishing. So either Jesus was not aware of Calvinistic doctrine or the Calvinist really does not really believe what our Lord actually taught in this particular instance." Your strawman representation has no resemblance to what we believe. Should I light into you with a similar representation of what you believe, that God is unable to save you without your good free choice? Do you dare to compare the power and integrity of freewill with the power and integrity of the Spirit of God?

Whether one is elect or not is shown at the resurrection, not now. Though we have confidence, we can (and do) fool ourselves; to many he will say, "depart from me —I never knew you." Calvinism doesn't claim otherwise. It does claim that we can know that salvation by grace through faith is a sure salvation, because of God's election. It does not posit nor imply salvation without obedience.

Does not your own inability to live up to your own conscience preach to you concerning the worthiness of your choices?
 
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Again. Not all uses of the words translated, "sanctification", are referring to the ongoing process, but sometimes the original, one-time, imputation put on us at regeneration. You have not shown otherwise.

I provided the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 that proves my case, but you are simply ignoring it in favor of what you believe.

I also provided cross references, too.

You said:
You say, "The thing is that in Calvinism: The Non-Elect cannot repent, and the Elect are never in danger of really ever perishing. So either Jesus was not aware of Calvinistic doctrine or the Calvinist really does not really believe what our Lord actually taught in this particular instance." Your strawman representation has no resemblance to what we believe. Should I light into you with a similar representation of what you believe, that God is unable to save you without your good free choice? Do you dare to compare the power and integrity of freewill with the power and integrity of the Spirit of God?

Whether one is elect or not is shown at the resurrection, not now. Though we have confidence, we can (and do) fool ourselves; to many he will say, "depart from me —I never knew you." Calvinism doesn't claim otherwise. It does claim that we can know that salvation by grace through faith is a sure salvation, because of God's election. It does not posit nor imply salvation without obedience.

Does not your own inability to live up to your own conscience preach to you concerning the worthiness of your choices?

Again, you fail to recognize what Jesus was saying in Luke 13:3. He was giving an either or position. Jesus was providing the possibility of being saved or not saved when this does not exist in Calvinism. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 makes this truth even more unmistakable. But again, your teachings from Calvinism does not allow you to see it (of course).
 
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Galatians 3

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Some people may ask me:

So Paul was wrong in his teaching that we are saved apart from works?

No. This is merely a misunderstanding by many within the church on Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-6. In these portions of Scripture, we know from the whole of His Word that:

#1. Paul was referring to Initial Salvation or the Justification Process (Which is a process of salvation that does not include works) for one is first saved by God's grace and mercy and by His work of redemption through faith without works. For when a person seeks forgiveness with the Lord for the first time, they are not saved by anything they primarily did, but they are saved by Christ's mercy, and by believing in His finished work (i.e. His death, burial and resurrection). Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened. Being quickened is a one time act. Ephesians 2:8 refers to this kind of salvation as a gift. Gifts are received one time. So this is referring to "Initial Salvation." Ephesians 2:10 confirms that works will then follow one being saved. These are God directed works done through the believer (Philippians 2:13). Ephesians 2:9 refers to a completely different kind of work (i.e. Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism - because these are the kind of works a man would boast in himself in doing; Unlike the work in Ephesians 2:10 which are works we are created in Christ Jesus to do by the power and working of God).

#2. Paul was referring to "Law Alone Salvationism" (Which was in most cases in reference to trying to be saved by keeping the 613 Laws of Moses and not the commands that come from Jesus and His followers). The Pharisees believed in a form of Law ALONE Salvationism that de-emphasized God's grace. We see this in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). The Pharisee did not humble himself like the Tax Collector by crying out to God in seeking forgiveness over his sins.

Also, we know that there were a certain sect of Jews who wanted Christians to be saved by first being circumcised and or by keeping the whole of the Law of Moses.

  1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

  2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

  3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

This is why Paul spoke against Law and works in the way that he did in the book of Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians. He was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism."

  1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

  2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

  3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

  4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

  5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

  6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

  7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

  8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

  9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”
But make no mistake: Paul later spoke of the necessity of the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation in other verses. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation by:

(a) A belief in the truth (i.e. Jesus is the truth - Jhn 14:6).
(b) Sanctification of the Spirit (Sanctification is referring to works because verse 12 says that there are those who did not believe the truth, and had pleasure in unrighteousness; And verses 16-17 says that God and the Son has given us an eternal comfort in the hope of his grace, and that he would establish us in every good word and work).​

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Paul says in Titus 1:16 that we can deny God by a lack of works.

Titus 2:11-12 says the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously, sober, and godly in this present world.

Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble. Paul says “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1). This is supported by Paul saying in the same chapter: “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). To "live after the flesh" is to live after sin. To "mortify the deeds of the body" is to put to death sin out of one's body via by the Spirit. Paul is referring to spiritual life vs. spiritual death because he says in Romans 8:1 about the same thing in relation to the "Condemnation" (Note: To learn more about the "Condemnation" see: John 3:19-21, and take note that everyone who does evil hates the light.).


In conclusion:

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-6, etc: Paul was referring to the Justification Process (Which is the 1st step in the salvation process that is without works). This process of salvation is how we are initially and ultimately saved. For if a believer happens to stumble into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to offset that sin, but they go to Jesus and they confess of their sins to be forgiven of that sin (See: 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For Paul says shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul's answer was not that we can do so and still be saved. His answer was: "God forbid" (See: Romans 6:1-2). His answer was: "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16). For Paul said that works of the flesh are these: Adultery, fornication, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, etc.; Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (See: Galatians 5:19-21). So Paul was defending the Justification Process of salvation (i.e. the 1st step in the salvation process), and James was defending the Sanctification Process in James 2:24 (i.e. the second step in the salvation process). For we are initially saved without works by God's grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Justification) when we first come to the Lord, and we are then later justified (saved) by works and not by faith alone aftwards (James 2:24) (Sanctification). For James says show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). But it is even more than just having works. One cannot justify sin. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Most churches today preach a greasy grace or easy believism. Yet, Jesus said narrow is the way. I will choose to follow Jesus and not the popular way promoted by most churches today.
 
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Again. Not all uses of the words translated, "sanctification", are referring to the ongoing process, but sometimes the original, one-time, imputation put on us at regeneration. You have not shown otherwise.

You say, "The thing is that in Calvinism: The Non-Elect cannot repent, and the Elect are never in danger of really ever perishing. So either Jesus was not aware of Calvinistic doctrine or the Calvinist really does not really believe what our Lord actually taught in this particular instance." Your strawman representation has no resemblance to what we believe. Should I light into you with a similar representation of what you believe, that God is unable to save you without your good free choice? Do you dare to compare the power and integrity of freewill with the power and integrity of the Spirit of God?

Whether one is elect or not is shown at the resurrection, not now. Though we have confidence, we can (and do) fool ourselves; to many he will say, "depart from me —I never knew you." Calvinism doesn't claim otherwise. It does claim that we can know that salvation by grace through faith is a sure salvation, because of God's election. It does not posit nor imply salvation without obedience.

Does not your own inability to live up to your own conscience preach to you concerning the worthiness of your choices?

Sorry, context is king. Also, I provided cross references in post #95 to prove my case, as well.
 
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Galatians 3

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

To quickly recap:

In Galatians 3: Paul was clearly talking about Law Alone Salvationism via by folks thinking they had to be saved initially being circumcised (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2).​

To Continue:

While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ (without the deeds of the Law or works), the Bible also teaches that works of faith also play a part in the salvation process. For both Jesus and Paul taught and or implied that works of faith play a part in eternal life.

#1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.

For Jesus said,
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23).

Jesus said,
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

Paul said,
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.

Jesus said,
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:14).

Jesus said,
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).

John said this of Jesus's words,
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39).

Paul said,
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Paul said,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Paul said,
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.

Jesus said,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Paul said,
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).
#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.

Jesus said,
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).

Paul said,
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
#5. Both Jesus and Peter essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.

Jesus said,
"Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:28‬).

Paul said,
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).
#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring (food) relates to everlasting life.

Jesus says,
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you..." (John 6:29).

Jesus says,
"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).

Paul said,
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).

Jesus said,
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).

Jesus said,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12).

Jesus said,
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11).

Paul said,
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was." (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

I write what I do with for the love of the truth.
May God’s love shine upon you today.
 
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A_Thinker

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Some people may ask me:

So Paul was wrong in his teaching that we are saved apart from works?

No. This is merely a misunderstanding by many within the church on Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-6. In these portions of Scripture, we know from the whole of His Word that:

#1. Paul was referring to Initial Salvation or the Justification Process (Which is a process of salvation that does not include works) for one is first saved by God's grace and mercy and by His work of redemption through faith without works. For when a person seeks forgiveness with the Lord for the first time, they are not saved by anything they primarily did, but they are saved by Christ's mercy, and by believing in His finished work (i.e. His death, burial and resurrection). Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened. Being quickened is a one time act. Ephesians 2:8 refers to this kind of salvation as a gift. Gifts are received one time. So this is referring to "Initial Salvation." Ephesians 2:10 confirms that works will then follow one being saved. These are God directed works done through the believer (Philippians 2:13). Ephesians 2:9 refers to a completely different kind of work (i.e. Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism - because these are the kind of works a man would boast in himself in doing; Unlike the work in Ephesians 2:10 which are works we are created in Christ Jesus to do by the power and working of God).

#2. Paul was referring to "Law Alone Salvationism" (Which was in most cases in reference to trying to be saved by keeping the 613 Laws of Moses and not the commands that come from Jesus and His followers). The Pharisees believed in a form of Law ALONE Salvationism that de-emphasized God's grace. We see this in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). The Pharisee did not humble himself like the Tax Collector by crying out to God in seeking forgiveness over his sins.

Also, we know that there were a certain sect of Jews who wanted Christians to be saved by first being circumcised and or by keeping the whole of the Law of Moses.

  1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

  2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

  3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

This is why Paul spoke against Law and works in the way that he did in the book of Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians. He was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism."

  1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

  2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

  3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

  4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

  5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

  6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

  7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

  8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

  9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”
But make no mistake: Paul later spoke of the necessity of the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation in other verses. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation by:

(a) A belief in the truth (i.e. Jesus is the truth - Jhn 14:6).
(b) Sanctification of the Spirit (Sanctification is referring to works because verse 12 says that there are those who did not believe the truth, and had pleasure in unrighteousness; And verses 16-17 says that God and the Son has given us an eternal comfort in the hope of his grace, and that he would establish us in every good word and work).​

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Paul says in Titus 1:16 that we can deny God by a lack of works.

Titus 2:11-12 says the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously, sober, and godly in this present world.

Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble. Paul says “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1). This is supported by Paul saying in the same chapter: “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). To "live after the flesh" is to live after sin. To "mortify the deeds of the body" is to put to death sin out of one's body via by the Spirit. Paul is referring to spiritual life vs. spiritual death because he says in Romans 8:1 about the same thing in relation to the "Condemnation" (Note: To learn more about the "Condemnation" see: John 3:19-21, and take note that everyone who does evil hates the light.).


In conclusion:

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-6, etc: Paul was referring to the Justification Process (Which is the 1st step in the salvation process that is without works). This process of salvation is how we are initially and ultimately saved. For if a believer happens to stumble into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to offset that sin, but they go to Jesus and they confess of their sins to be forgiven of that sin (See: 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For Paul says shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul's answer was not that we can do so and still be saved. His answer was: "God forbid" (See: Romans 6:1-2). His answer was: "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16). For Paul said that works of the flesh are these: Adultery, fornication, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, etc.; Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (See: Galatians 5:19-21). So Paul was defending the Justification Process of salvation (i.e. the 1st step in the salvation process), and James was defending the Sanctification Process in James 2:24 (i.e. the second step in the salvation process). For we are initially saved without works by God's grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Justification) when we first come to the Lord, and we are then later justified (saved) by works and not by faith alone aftwards (James 2:24) (Sanctification). For James says show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). But it is even more than just having works. One cannot justify sin. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Most churches today preach a greasy grace or easy believism. Yet, Jesus said narrow is the way. I will choose to follow Jesus and not the popular way promoted by most churches today.
1 Corinthians 3

9 For we are laborers together with God: you are God's husbandry, you are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 
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Galatians 3

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

If you were to carefully look at the context of Galatians 3, Paul is referencing the 613 Law of Moses (See: Galatians 3:17, Galatians 3:19, Galatians 3:24). Paul was also referencing the problem in certain individuals wrongfully thinking they had to be circumcised in order to be initially saved (Which points us to the Jerusalem council issue in Acts 15) (Also see again Galatians 2:3, and Galatians 5:2). Circumcision was a part of the Old Law and not the New Laws given to us by Christ and His followers. In Galatians 3: Paul is not referring to the commandments of Christ.

“To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.” (1 Corinthians 9:21).
 
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1 Corinthians 3

9 For we are laborers together with God: you are God's husbandry, you are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In regards to the parable of the building,
and it's materials in 1 Corinthians 3:

Paul says before the parable, "you are God's building."
So we are the materials that make up the building.

The work is not referring to just any kind of general actions of a believer like good fruit (any kind of good fruit) and evil fruit (sin). The work is referring to those believers we bring to the faith and their eternal status with God (i.e. what kind of building materials are they made up of). The Parable is talking about Paul's work (Which is the Corinthians in this instance).

I believe Paul and the other apostles are a part of the foundation with Christ being the chief cornerstone or the ultimate baseline foundation (Ephesians 2:20), and that Paul's work in the gospel are the result of the Corinthians being initially saved by the gospel. However, Paul is now concerned that his labor in the gospel (concerning them) is now in vain because the Corinthians are now working the sins of strife and envying (Note: Paul condemns the sins of strife and envying when writing to the Galatians (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God). In Galatians 4:11, Paul was concerned for the Galatians in that they were going back to the Old Law so as to be justified or saved. He was concerned that his labor for the gospel was in vain for the Galatians.

So the parable speaks of how his labor for the gospel (concerning the Corinthians) was now possibly in vain for them, too.

#1. The chief cornerstone foundation = Jesus Christ.
#2. Built as a part of the foundation on top of Christ = The apostles (including Paul, etc.) (Ephesians 2:20).
#3. The actual building materials of the tower or building = God's people (In this instance it would be the Corinthians).
#4. The Corinthians would be like: Wood, hay, and stubble in this particular point in time within their life while they abided in their sins of strife, and envying (Which are sins that will cause a person to not inherit the Kingdom of God).
Wood, hay, and stubble are not materials that could survive a fire.
#5. Paul (the soul winner, and builder of the gospel and builder upon the foundation of Jesus Christ) would be saved through the fire (despite his work - i.e. the Corinthians being his work) would be burned up because of their sins. For Paul then says that if any man defiles the temple, God will destroy them (Meaning: God will destroy the Corinthians if they do not repent of their sins). We are the temple of God. Our bodies are the temples of God. If we as believers defile our temples by sin, God will destroy us (i.e. condemn us).​

This is what I believe the parable is saying. The works of Paul that will be burned are the Corinthians if they do not repent of their sins of strife and envy (1 Corinthians 3:3). The Corinthians at this point in time are not saved and they will be burned up in the fire and destroyed by God if they don't seek forgiveness with the Lord and turn from their sins of strife and envy. Paul, the apostles, or the gospel preacher is the one who will be saved through fire if his work (the Corinthians) is burned up (on the account of their justifying sin). The parable is not talking about how a believer can sin and still be saved as long as they have a belief on Jesus. It's actually teaching the exact opposite of that. One cannot build sin as a work upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not advocate sin, and neither did He teach that a person can continue to sin and still be saved.

Yes, we are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace, but believers cannot justify sin, and they have to be fruitful for their Lord and live holy as a part of the Sanctification Process.
For Hebrews 12:14-15 says,

“14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness,
without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;”
(Hebrews 12:14-15).
 
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Jesus did not advocate sin, and neither did He teach that a person can continue to sin and still be saved.
But He did say that He would not cast away any who has come to Him ...

John 6

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
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Please carefully refer back to my post #70 within this thread about what John MacArthur actually believes. If after you were to look at his words within that post, I do not see how you could believe MacArthur believes in holy living; Especially seeing how he has made statements about how a believer can sin and still be saved. Justifying the idea that we can sin and still be saved is not holy living.
I guess you missed where I responded to the same set of claims concerning what MacArthur believes. Any of us uses hyperbole to make a point, and these statements are obviously taken out of context, besides, so you are going to have to do better than the media does to prove your point.

But besides that, you have yet to answer me how works can save anyone.
 
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But He did say that He would not cast away any who has come to Him ...

John 6

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."​

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."​

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.​

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.​

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?


Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Note: Website no longer active)
 
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I guess you missed where I responded to the same set of claims concerning what MacArthur believes. Any of us uses hyperbole to make a point, and these statements are obviously taken out of context, besides, so you are going to have to do better than the media does to prove your point.

But besides that, you have yet to answer me how works can save anyone.

You cannot be serious.
So you deny that MacArthur states that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved?
You deny MacArthur stating that a person can take the mark of the beast and be saved?
You deny MacArthur’s own statement that sin does not lead to death in his own study Bible?
You deny MacArthur’s statement in a video that states the same thing?
Does not sound like hyperbole to me. Sounds pretty clear that he teaches you can sin and still be saved (Which clearly runs contrary to holy living).
 
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Mark Quayle

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Look at the verses more carefully in post #95.
Do these not, just as I have been saying, demonstrate that one who does not obey has no right to claim to belong to Christ? Are you still going to claim, contrary to Scripture, that by works we have been saved by faith?
 
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Mark Quayle

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So do you ignore that Paul was referring to the Law of Moses and not the commandments of Jesus when he generically spoke of the words “law” and “works” in a negative light? If so, try reading the context sometime and you will see it refers in most cases to the Old Testament Law of Moses and NOT the commands of Jesus.
So: You DO claim we are saved by works. I think we are done here.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I also believe in grace just fine. I believe we are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace. But Sanctification by the Spirit is another aspect of salvation that takes place after we are saved by God’s grace. They both work in harmony together. For Titus 2:11-12 says that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.
Then why the lambasting and antagonism against what I believe? Apparently you wish to continue to claim salvation by works.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You see grace as an Unconditional Election by God because you are a Calvinist. I see grace as…

God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

To get a more comprehensive picture of salvation, check out this thread here:

The Four Aspects of Salvation.
No. I came to believe something I only later found out was Reformed Theology, by long Bible study, hard experience and reasoning. Calvinism is not what you paint.

Salvation is not by works. You mock the Grace of God. You exalt man.
 
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Do these not, just as I have been saying, demonstrate that one who does not obey has no right to claim to belong to Christ? Are you still going to claim, contrary to Scripture, that by works we have been saved by faith?

You fail to understand that works of faith are a part of the faith. The works that Paul speaks of generically in a negative light are the works of the 613 Laws of Moses and Law ALONE Salvationism without God’s grace. Just read the context next time you read these words by Paul and you will see it for yourself. Paul never condemns works of faith (of which he positively speaks of).
 
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I provided the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 that proves my case, but you are simply ignoring it in favor of what you believe.

I also provided cross references, too.



Again, you fail to recognize what Jesus was saying in Luke 13:3. He was giving an either or position. Jesus was providing the possibility of being saved or not saved when this does not exist in Calvinism. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 makes this truth even more unmistakable. But again, your teachings from Calvinism does not allow you to see it (of course).
So you continue to promote salvation by works. Yep. We are done. I will answer the last few I see you have posted and be done.
 
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