Why should I beleive in God?

Spyr · Mar 3, 2005

food4thought said:
You misunderstand the testimony of the Apostles. They were first hand eyewitnesses of the resurrected Jesus. If they had never seen Jesus resurrected, they knew they were completely lost at their death, yet none of them recanted. Even when forced to watch those they loved be tortured and killed before them, the couldn't recant, because they knew Jesus was resurrected. Do you see how this differs from a misguided belief in something? They would know for certain if they were false witnesses of Jesus' resurrection, yet they didn't recant.

How many of the UFO cultists would have killed themselves if they knew for certain it was false? How many of the suicide bombers would kill themselves for paradise if they knew for certain that they would enter hell, not paradise? I don't speak in this case for the individuals who kill themselves and others simply out of hatred, without any anticipation of Paradise. The point is, the Apostles were Jewish Theists that believed in hell, judgement, and eternal life; and if they died for a lie, what would they hope for in eternity? Yet none of them recanted. Not one.

Very powerful evidence, but still not absolute proof. You will wait until a split second after you die for absolute proof that the God of the Bible is the One true God... but then it would be too late. Please don't put a burden of proof on God that you don't put on your next breath. How do you know for certain that someone didn't just release poison gas into the ventilation system? You cannot know in time, but the evidence is very strong that this is not true, so you take a breath. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, JUST BREATH, MAN!

I definitely believe that the martyrs in the bible died for what they believe to be true. However (and for this I'm sure I'm going to get a spanking), the fact they they believe it to be true doesn't make it true. Now I'll tread softly here because I want to make absolutely clear that I'm not discounting the ressurection of christ nor would I be so foolish as to contradict the eye-witness testimony of many who have died for the faith. The point I'll stress though is that dying for a faith is not proof of a faith. Granted it's compelling and certainly drives to me to question my own position but I must say martyrdom, for me at least (and I know I'm a mule!), leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Spyr · Mar 3, 2005

food4thought said:
I'm sorry Spyr, my last two posts were a bit too forcefull when take back to back like that. Of course I respect your questions, but I wanted to refocus your attention from your mind to your soul, which is really the issue. Please accept my apologies.

No problem, I'm not exact the most agreeable person myself.

Spyr · Mar 3, 2005

food4thought said:
To be a good father you will have to die to yourself and put the needsd of your wife and child ahead of your "natural" self. Look around at the world that our "natural selves" has destroyed, look at the lives of those who have been given over to their "natural selves". God is wise. He knows we cannot "repress" our nature, so He provides a way to be forgiven our failure, and also provides power to not just repress, but put to death that nature.

Hope that helps.

It does, and I really see that you believe and know what your talking about. That was a good analogy with fatherhood... but there is a crucial difference (what else can you expect from me?). As a father I would be sacrificing myself for the good of my family. Their needs become my needs, their pains become my own. They don't claim to be higher than me. They don't tell me to follow their requests by faith. And they surely don't tell me that if I don't do what they say they'll damn my soul to eternal misery.

"It seems like a crucial conjuction." - Emperor's New Groove

Spyr · Mar 3, 2005

gaweatherford said:
To add to that, and even more compelling was that the fact that the disciples were Jewish and expected the prophesied messiah to NOT die on a cross, but to evict the Romans and rule the world from Jerusalem. When he did'nt, they left discouraged and hid themselves for fear and ridicule (remember, for the time that they were Jesus's disciples, they had bragged how he was God and could'nt die). In days or weeks following......"something"..... happened that caused them to come out.....dieing like martyr's. That is evidence.

I will take it into consideration. I'll need to know more about it.

Spyr · Mar 3, 2005

JJB said:
Spyr, Have you heard of Sadhu Sundar Singh? Here's a website about him. It's a fascinating story of a hindu sikh who came to believe in Jesus. That might help you see some more about the truth of the God of the Bible ....

www.sadhusundarsingh.homestead.com/files/introduction.html

I haven't read the entire site (as I am at work), but it looks quite interresting. I think I might be inclined to tell the world about god if jesus visited me too.

JJB · Mar 3, 2005

Spyr,
Something else that separates Christianity and other faiths:

You could line up all faiths in an enormous line, followed by one word to describe them. The line could include Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, whatever you are considering.....

They would all be followed by the word, "Do". Christianity would be followed by the word "Done".

All other faiths you have to do your best and hope you're better than your neighbor to get to heaven or perfection or whatever is the goal.

Also, if you are doubting about Sundar Singh's story, there are many stories like that. There is also a website where Muslims share about how they've also been visited by Jesus. I am not recalling the address at the moment.

Have you ever read any biographies on missionaries? There's also a new book out about Harriett Tubman and how her belief in Jesus had great impact on her actions regarding freeing people from enslavement. She is such an amazing person, she should be a national hero. She did much more than freeing people, too.

I'm just throwing out suggestions you may not have considered, but then again perhaps you have.

I pray God reaches you in your search,
JJB

Spyr · Mar 3, 2005

WashedClean said:
And in the end, God will respect your choice so when you die, you won't be in His presence. But there is still time to change that because you're alive!

You know, I've read through all the posts here and I believe you are sincerely seeking. But your sin has blinded you, as someone else pointed out. I can only say that I knew my whole life that I was a sinner. What I didn't understand was that it separated me from God and I had offended Him. The Holy Spirit gave me this revelation. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would convict the world of sin. And the Holy Spirit draws men to Christ. Have you asked God to reveal Himself to you through the Holy Spirit? I would pray for saving faith, because you're talking a lot about faith as if it's something we as Christians conjure up ourselves. I believe faith is a gift from God. There is no doubt in my mind that I am blood bought and saved. The Holy Spirit testifies this to my spirit.

Hope I'm making sense...

God bless you and I pray that you will truly find saving faith in Jesus.

WashedClean

I see what your saying. I doubt I'm blinded by sin but I wouldn't deny being influenced by it. And I find not being in his presence and calm euphemism for never ending torment in a lake of fire but we'll side-step that for the moment and ask a question. For those who, in full knowledge, deny god and literally choose damnation; should their choice be respected.

Spyr · Mar 3, 2005

JJB said:
Spyr,
Something else that separates Christianity and other faiths:

You could line up all faiths in an enormous line, followed by one word to describe them. The line could include Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, whatever you are considering.....

They would all be followed by the word, "Do". Christianity would be followed by the word "Done".

All other faiths you have to do your best and hope you're better than your neighbor to get to heaven or perfection or whatever is the goal.

That's not really true. What I accept as truth right now doesn't require me to do anything. My belief is that there is no heaven or hell simply a continuation of our existence (I could go into a lot more detail but it would take way too long to type everything).

Also, if you are doubting about Sundar Singh's story, there are many stories like that. There is also a website where Muslims share about how they've also been visited by Jesus. I am not recalling the address at the moment.

Have you ever read any biographies on missionaries? There's also a new book out about Harriett Tubman and how her belief in Jesus had great impact on her actions regarding freeing people from enslavement. She is such an amazing person, she should be a national hero. She did much more than freeing people, too.

Oh I don't really doubt it, I just mean that if jesus is showing himself to people he might as well show himself to me as well (it's a stupid reasonning but I think it gets my point accross).

I'm just throwing out suggestions you may not have considered, but then again perhaps you have.

I hadn't seriously considered taking a look at people who claim to have been visited by jesus or even angels but I will now. Thanks!

hartmanpeter · Mar 3, 2005

Allow me to introduce myself. I am Spyr's twin brother.

Yes, I'm afraid there is another one out there that looks like him.

This might very well be against his will, but I would like to give you more insight into the horror that is my brother. (Just kidding Spyr...don't hurt me....)

First of, let me say in the last two days, I've read every single post in this thread so far. Rather interesting, to say the least. A warning: do not get involved discussing this matter with Spyr unless you enjoy doing so. I've read a lot of frustrated post from people trying to get through to Spyr. I am 99% sure that nothing you could post will ever change his mind or get him to accept anything. And that's fine. It's normal. One post can't make someone change their life. So get into it, talk it out more. Don't expect him to, all of a sudden, change his mind.

What I suggest is to be prepared for an ongoing discussion on the matter. Furthermore, I would imagine that you would want to talk about this and other subjects. It's fun. It's educational. It allows you to clearly formulate your thoughts and ideas in your head and express them to another human being. It will help you. So enjoy it! Don't let Spyr get to you in a negative way. He's a nice guy, believe me. He might spell God with a lower case "g", but he means absolutely no disrespect in any way to any of you and neither do I.

Second, let's not get redundant. There are a few posters out there who just aren't getting that what they are saying is not going to work. **There are some posters out there, though, that are just great to read. They understand what they're saying and they use variations of point-counter point in order to explain themselves. **

Spyr has been in church for most of his life. And even out of church, his search for truth has never ceased. We've spent hours debating these issues. He and I know much about being a christian but we are fully aware that we know not all. What I'm trying to avoid is the post that state to simply try it ans you'll know, you'll understand. And the post that state to pray and allow God to provide the answers. He has prayed. We have prayed. And sincerly asked. And openned our hearts honestly with preconceived notions of how He would answer.

Spyr cannot accept the Bible as proof for anything. You cant prove your religion with your books and your account of history. (Though, there is an exception. More to follow). Please dont argue this point: why do you believe in history books and what scientist say, etc There isnt much danger in believing those things at least not as perilous as the matter at hand.

Instead, hit Spry where it hurts. (Figuratively, that is.unless your in arms reach then physically is fine.) Guys I hope you know Im kidding around. Spyr wants proof. A lot of people are saying theres no proof, its all faith and feelings and emotions and on the inside and in the heart.

Listen. I believe in God. I believe in an all powerful, intelligent and clever God. He created all of us. He knows that some will believe by faith, some by fear and some with proof.

Jesus preached the word of God. The word of God was accepted by faith by some.

Jesus preached of the love of God. The love of God was accepted by those who wanted love.

Jesus spoke of hell or the eternal separation of man from God. The fear of separation was accepted by those who needed fear to believe.

Jesus also provided proof, and miracles and prophesy. He did it for Doubting Thomas.

It has been said that prophesy is being fulfilled as we speak. Lets look at whats happening. Lets look at world events and see how they relate. Lets prove it!

Lastly, thank you for reading all this. I know its sometimes boring. Im glad were all learning, talking and sharing.

Please remember, just because Spyr doesnt get your point exactly, doesnt mean that some other reader isnt being moved by your post. Everything happens for a reason, even if unknown by you.

________________________________

Spyr, you're really giving these people hell. If the christian God exists, may He have mercy on you. (and me) (seriously)

Spyr · Mar 3, 2005

Bless you Peter for your unbelievable courage.

newbride02 · Mar 3, 2005

Spyr said:
Forgive me as well, I should have been more patient. It's just that so many people have a problem with me asking an important question. It just seems like if someone doesn't want to asnwer me they can just pass the thread by. It's almost a blow that someone would spend their time posting a message just to tell me to shut up (I know you weren't saying that, I'm generalizing).

On a more important note I should like to say that I'm not really looking for scientific proof. No one is going to mix some solutions in a test tube and say Ah yes, there's god. I also realize that that faith is all important when talking about christianity. But there has to be SOMETHING other than feelings one can base their faith on. There has to be something that leads you to have faith. There has to be something to push you along, something concrete, something... just something! That's what I'm looking for, what's the foundation of your and anyone's faith?

As for the story with your grandfather, would you consider that maybe he found the dollar outside because he was suppose to go to church but not for the purpose of praising god but rather for something else? Let me be more clear. Perhaps he had to go to church for a different reason, maybe he said something to someone or prevented something with his presence or caused something to happen that has absolutely nothing to do with god. I'm not saying for sure it had nothing to do with the will of god but just consider What If?

I understand what you mean by "something other than feelings" as "proof" of God's exsistance. I can't speak for everyone, but my proof, is... When someone is in a car accident and lives to tell about it, or when a doctor says 'you'll never walk again" or " you have 4 mths to live" and yet it is overcome. I believe you can see the works of God every day, but sometimes maybe its not so obvious, sometimes you have to look. I also dont' believe in coicedence (i'm sure i spelled that wrong) I believe if its said "its coicedence" its really God.

As far as my fathers experiance goes, maybe it wasn't meant that he go for his own purpose. Maybe it was meant that he went for someone else's purpose, or what have you. That isn't important to me. WHat is, is that God provided a way for him to go. I really believe it was a test. Its easy to say "oh I'd go if only this.." and it happends, then you find another reason not to go, I"m guilty of that myself. Anyways, its an example of how God does work in your everyday life, if you just choose to see it that way. Many may say its a coincedence, I don't.

I would like to recommend "The Purpose Driven Life" its REMARKABLE!! Its an easy read, recommended only 1 chapter a day. It really lays things out for you and explains your purpose in life. It explains why you are here on earth, why you were created. It might help you

newbride02 · Mar 3, 2005

I found this in another thread.....

Does God exsist?

I am not sure if any of you have seen this already but I thought it was cool, because the person who said these things is one of my favorite people in the history books......

The university professor challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything that exists?" the professor asked.

"Yes, sir," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil." The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once again that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask YOU a question, professor?"

"Of course," replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is that? Of course it exists. Haven't you ever been cold?"

The other students snickered at the young man's question. The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does NOT exist. According to the laws of physics, what we perceive as cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat."

The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong, sir, darkness does NOT exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does NOT exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, it's a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, which can be measured and that exists just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes then there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name...................Albert Einstein.

JJB · Mar 3, 2005

For those who, in full knowledge, deny god and literally choose damnation; should their choice be respected

Is this a question you would like an answer to, Spyr? Which god is being denied? It's hard to tell when you don't use capitalization. The Christian God, the god of hindus, the god of muslims????

brinny · Mar 3, 2005

Spyr said:
Bless you Peter for your unbelievable courage.

ROFL!

JJB · Mar 3, 2005

Hey HartmanPeter, welcome to the discussion!

hartmanpeter · Mar 3, 2005

newbride02 said:
To this the student replied, "Evil does NOT exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, it's a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, which can be measured and that exists just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes then there is no light."

Evil is not a word created to describe the absence of God.
Websters Dictionnary describes evil as:
Evil

Adjective

1. Morally bad or wrong; "evil purposes"; "an evil influence"; "evil deeds".

2. Having the nature of vice.

3. Tending to cause great harm.

4. Having or exerting a malignant influence; "malevolent stars"; "a malefic force".

Noun

1. Morally objectionable behavior.

2. That which causes harm or destruction or misfortune: "the evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones"- Shakespeare.

3. The quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice: "attempts to explain the origin of evil in the world".

hartmanpeter · Mar 3, 2005

JJB said:
Hey HartmanPeter, welcome to the discussion!

Thank you for having me!

hartmanpeter · Mar 3, 2005

brinny said:
ROFL!

You laugh, but I'm afraid.

newbride02 · Mar 3, 2005

hartmanpeter said:
Evil is not a word created to describe the absence of God.
Websters Dictionnary describes evil as:
Evil

Adjective

1. Morally bad or wrong; "evil purposes"; "an evil influence"; "evil deeds".

2. Having the nature of vice.

3. Tending to cause great harm.

4. Having or exerting a malignant influence; "malevolent stars"; "a malefic force".

Noun

1. Morally objectionable behavior.

2. That which causes harm or destruction or misfortune: "the evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones"- Shakespeare.

3. The quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice: "attempts to explain the origin of evil in the world".

I'll have to disagree...when God occupies your soul, there is no "morally objectable behavior" you would not want to seek out or create 'evil purposes or evil deeds" Where God is, evil is not. One cannot have evil and God both in your heart.

hartmanpeter · Mar 4, 2005

newbride02 said:
I'll have to disagree...when God occupies your soul, there is no "morally objectable behavior" you would not want to seek out or create 'evil purposes or evil deeds" Where God is, evil is not. One cannot have evil and God both in your heart.

I believe you are incorrect. By your logic, no one with the Spirit of God could do evil. But saints can become sinners without losing the Spirit of God. If God is everywhere, then God is where evil is.

Why should I beleive in God?

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