why should he need to save us?

kacka · Sep 13, 2006

o.k. i am an atheist, but at the same time my cultural background and family, country, customs and moral believes are based on christianity. so you can maybe say i am a christian atheist.

as such i believe it is my responsibility to be educated about my history and background.

i do believe, that i do have extensive knowledge of bible and general christianity, yet with all that there is a major question that nobody so far was able to explain to me so that it makes any sence.

I would like to understand why christians believe that Jesus had to die to save them. I do not feel that anybody should be responsible for primary sin of Adam and Eve but Adam and Eve themselves. Why somebody needed to die for 'us'?

Rafael · Sep 13, 2006

God is holy and He can have nothing to do with sin as the Bible says, "His eyes are too pure to look upon evil," (Hab. 1:13). This does not mean that God cannot see what someone does that is wrong. It is a way of describing how holy God is. God cannot sin. He is perfect.
Death is a cursed position to be in that was caused by sin. We need to be saved from sin and death. It must be part of a deeper law and knowledge that makes up the very fabric of our existence, as even God did not go against it.
Justice is part of God's makeup as a Holy being, and the whole ball of wax was created by Him and only by His power, with Him knowing all the rules of how to create worlds, universes, dimensions, and life. Justice demanded death for the mistake made by Adam when God provided the contrast to His light in the garden as a choice. In my opinion, love cannot exist without a full choice, so God paid that sacrificial price of love Himself, in the flesh as God manifested in man through Jesus Christ, the Savior and Mediator between God and all of mankind. He showed us what love is by redeeming His creation from sin and death at the cross, providing a way back to the eternal life man originally had as a creature of God, but even better - as Sons of God.

strikerchris0411 · Sep 13, 2006

I have a question for you. Why are you on Christian forums?

gaweatherford · Sep 13, 2006

Mathews 7:1-2- Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Key · Sep 13, 2006

To show us the weight and cost of our sins.

I hope I have provided you an answer, if not, please let me know.

God Bless

Key

MikeMcK · Sep 13, 2006

If you really want to know the answer to this, the best thing you can do is to take a few minutes, grab a Bible, and read Romans 5-7.

It explains it in much more detail than I can here.

Assisi · Sep 13, 2006

God is infinite, and He is infinitely good. He is infinitely merciful (He forgives us) but He is also infinitely just. When we sin (what we do is not good) we separate ourselves from Him (being infinitely good). God is just, so the sin must be punished, but god is merciful, so He sent His Son to bear the sin, He doesn't punish us.

Does this answer it logically?

ebia · Sep 14, 2006

Self-sacrifice is the only way that what is wrong in the world can be put right. Even God can't do it by force.

sistakrista · Sep 14, 2006

This is from Romans 3, New American Standard, emphasis is mine:

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

jesusmysaviour76 · Sep 14, 2006

Goodness those answers are so much more informative than what I was going to write.

I was going to say and guess i'm still going to say it lol... that He died for our sins, because that's just the cool kinda God I serve. I don't ask questions, I just believe, because if I believe and he's not real then I don't really loose, but if he isn't and I don't believe then I'm in hell.

dvd_holc · Sep 14, 2006

Ok, why should someone die to save us?

Because the fundamental truth about our lives is that we live because of death. When we eat something, we have to cut that thing off from its life source to sustain our life.

So then Jesus, in a balance to the created order with its purpose (ie. reality), died to bring us to life. Likewise by Jesus presenting the message to humanity without pushing His message with might, He was in harmony with the created order allowing us to freely choose Him.

Make no mistake; no bull, bird, or any offering to God ever paid the price for our specific sins. All of the pictures used by the people given to them by God was a picture to them of Jesus which God had foreordained.

In our lives, we are handed a enviroment that was deeply influenced by our descisions for it. Our collective sins have a price on our lives and the world. But as a child knows who to hold responsible when they see something occur, God knows who to hold responsible for their individual chooses.

strikerchris0411 · Sep 14, 2006

??? I just wanted to know why he was on Christianforums. Whether or not he heard it from someone or knew about it and just had some questions or any other reason.

intricatic · Sep 14, 2006

Deuteronomy 30
11 For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it? 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it? 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
15 See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.
-----

Isaiah 24
3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered,
For the LORD has spoken this word.
4 The earth mourns and fades away,
The world languishes and fades away;
The haughty people of the earth languish.
5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants,
Because they have transgressed the laws,
Changed the ordinance,
Broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth,
And those who dwell in it are desolate.
Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned,
And few men are left.
7 The new wine fails, the vine languishes,
All the merry-hearted sigh.
8 The mirth of the tambourine ceases,
The noise of the jubilant ends,
The joy of the harp ceases.
9 They shall not drink wine with a song;
Strong drink is bitter to those who drink it.
10 The city of confusion is broken down;
Every house is shut up, so that none may go in.
------

Galatians 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for the just shall live by faith. 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but the man who does them shall live by them.
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a mans covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, And to your Seed,who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

TexasGirl06 · Sep 14, 2006

Well....
all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.
Every person has sinned.
It started with the sin in the Garden.

The wages for sin is death.
This means...that because we have sinned just ONE TIME...we will go to hell when we die.

But, God loves us too much to see us go to hell.
He will provide a way for us to spend eternity with Him in Heaven when we leave this earth.

He will send His Son.
His perfect Son.
Jesus.
Jesus never sinned.
Not once.
He is the perfect sacrificial lamb.

Jesus will be killed.
He is innocent.
He is taking the punishment for our sin.
My sin was upon Him.
Your sin was upon Him.

Jesus died for our sin.
He was buried, and then He rose again on the third day.

We must repent of our sin.
We must acknowledge our sin against a Holy God...
and repent of our sin.
Turn away from the sin and go in the other direction.

This is why Jesus had to die.
He came to earth to die.
It was what had to be done.
It was the plan from the very beginning.

This salvation through Jesus...
it is a Gift.
It is available to all...
but it is not automatic.
We must accept this Gift.
The Gift is free.
We must believe on the Lord Jesus.

Back in the Old Testament times....
(before Jesus came to earth as a baby)
God gave specific instructions for how sin was to be COVERED.
Animals were sacrificed.
Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.

God was setting the stage....
preparing the way....
for the Ultimate sacrificial Lamb to come into the picture.

It was once and for all...
Jesus' work on the cross.
It is finished....said Jesus.

So....this is why someone (Jesus) had to die.

God cannot allow sin in Heaven.
With sin...we go to hell.
With Jesus' shed blood....we go to Heaven.

Good people do not go to Heaven.
Forgiven people go to Heaven.

kacka · Sep 14, 2006

Thank you all. I am probably more puzzled then before. It seems that no two answers are the same and everybody has their own explanation. I will find the part in Romans once I get my hands on a Bible in more friendly language then English. Thank you.

intricatic · Sep 14, 2006

Well, it's a very diverse question, but the sum of it is answered by Ezekiel;

Ezekiel 22
30 So I sought for a man among them who would make a wall, and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found no one.

-----

...and only in Christ could this be found.

salida · Sep 15, 2006

Jesus became the perfect sacrifice for us - since we are in a fallen state we must be restored. We took the blame for Adam and Eve because this is how serious sin is and God is just.

You say you think you extensively understand the Bible? So, you understand that its therefore the only religious book with hundreds of years of prophesies in it that have come true and there is more to come. And its a wise, legal, poetic, song, wise, archaeological, historical book all rolled into one? Examine the Evidence by Muncaster is a great book - your family may want to read it if they haven't.

BroGinder · Sep 15, 2006

Would it have been Gracious, or Merciful to allow us no rescue from the Sin committed in the garden. That would not have been the sign of a Merciful God.

This is a very deep question and I appreciate your candor on the matter. I do believe you will find that in reading the Bible there was always a sacrafice after the Garden experience.

God was tired of all the blood shed, the Law (10 commandments) was turned into well over 2000 laws by man.

The Law could only condem man, Jesus came to convict man, and to serve as the price paid for the conviction. To be the final sacrafice. The PERFECT FINAL sacrafice. Insuch God is still a gentleman.

He is not willing to remove free will from man. HE wants us to serve him as he serves us and that is with Love.

Simple thought from a simple man

XR0391 · Sep 15, 2006

Oh oh! My turn. You want to know how it relates to Adam and Eve, so we'll start there.

Adam and Eve were given one command, and they disobeyed the said command. Now God being pure and just could not just let this go, or he would be unjust, and that's against God's goodness. So he cursed man, and since man was given stewardship over the Earth, the Earth was cursed as well.

Now, God set up new guidelines, which were needed because man now knew good and evil, therefor lost his innocence. One of these guidelines was that an innocent creature, i.e., an animal, must die in order for sins to be forgiven. Since humans are tainted and spiritual weak, they cannot make provisions for themselves due to their innate evilness.

What innate evilness? Humans are spiritually young and limited in their understanding. This coupled with the ability to commit evil acts knowingly is like giving a child a handgun. As such, they will sin many times, thus becoming impure.

Now, humans, again, cannot make provisions for themselves, so God himself, being born into the world as Jesus, took it upon himself as he had planned to act as the perfect sacrifice in order to solve the sin problem. This was only after testing and raising a bloodline, Abraham's bloodline. God also made covenants with man in order to execute his plan, since man was still steward of the Earth.

So, being the perfect being he was, God forgave man, but was also Just in doing so, since our punishment was brought upon Jesus, and God was fair in doing it, since his covenants were made with man.

So, God redeems his children, and he remains Good and Just.

Amen.

hlaltimus · Sep 15, 2006

Why should someone be responsible for the sins of another? They shouldn't, that is....Party "A" should not have to be responsible for the sins of Party "B", given there is no connecting relationship between them, and this is the very reason why Christ did have to die for our sins. When He assumed a human nature via Mary, He then became related to our human race which happened to be a fallen one from it's perfect, though mutable, original. He, at this point, had a physically imperfect body from and because of Mary, which imperfections were not in any moral or ceremonial violation of Jewish law, but did not inherit her imperfect nature as the nature was always transfered through the counterpart of the woman and this was the Holy Spirit, thus He wasn't a sinner. Now, as Jesus the Son of David, Christ standing in His humanity was not under any obligation to bail out anyone else for their transgressions no more than you or I are. As Christ the Son of God standing in His divinity, Christ had a perfect right to absorb His fallen creature's sins as they were just that: His creatures as He was the Creator that made them and could do with them as He pleased. He had the right as their Creator, the ability as being Divine, and the relational suitability as being human. If He went for a long, long walk, as is seen in His being wearied from His journey and stopping at the Samaritan well to rest, He was manifesting this non-sinful imperfection in his humanly defective physical body and could, therefore, sympathize with another imperfect human, the Samaritan woman. They were both, there at the well, imperfect humans though one of them badly needed redemption and one, Christ, did not. He was willing to sacrifice Himself for both that imperfect Samaritan woman, and us as well, partly out of sympathy for a fallen race which He was then feeling, in the non-moral defects of His tired and worn out body, then and there. You may call this an "Historical Story" if you wish, but I prefer to call it what it really is; a "Love Story".

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