#1:
Faith comes first and without faith it’s impossible to please God. (
Hebrews 11:6)
- So, faith comes before obedience in your view.
- See the next section re: 1 John 3:23
#4:
In
1 John 3:23 we read - Now this is His command: that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another as He commanded us.
The 2 verses you quoted at the end of your post look like they answer my 4th question re: the existence of any commands by God to believe in His Son. I'll use this one you identify to begin:
- I would have used this verse also.
- It clearly deals with faith in the context of [obeying] a command of God to believe and is thus not different than Paul using faith and obedience interchangeably in Romans 10.
- So, a question: Since we are commanded [by God] to believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, then:
- Does our belief happen first, or does our obedience to God's command to believe happen first, or does our belief and our obedience happen simultaneously (interchangeably)?
#2:
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is the foundation of the gospel. The apostle Paul clearly states that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. The gospel is a message of grace which is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
- Does 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 say it is
the foundation of the Gospel, or do we (I don't) just teach that it is?
- In context in the verses that follow, isn't Paul just using
this part of the Gospel (see Acts 13 below) to teach the vital importance of belief in the resurrection of Jesus?
Re: foundation: NKJ 1 Cor. 3:10-11 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid
the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For
no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid,
which is Jesus Christ.
- So, The Foundation is Jesus Christ
- We know that Jesus' last name is not Christ. This always means Jesus is The Christ - Jesus = The Christ (Christ being a title, not a name).
Acts 18:1-4 Paul is in Corinth speaking to the Corinthian Jews and Greeks
Acts 18:5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was
compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ.
- The manuscript this is translated from is more emphatic than this translation. It literally says something like "...solemnly testifying to the Jews The Christ - Jesus. So, Paul was being compelled by the Spirit making an emphatic declaration that The Christ = Jesus.
Acts 13:16-41:
- Paul is in Antioch speaking to Jews and God-Fearers (Gentiles who fear God):
- 17-22 Paul takes a trip through Jewish history to reach and speak of King David
- 23 Pursuant to the Davidic Covenant, Paul identifies Jesus as David's descendant and Israel's Savior. So, in essence, Paul's initial presentation is that this Jesus is the King of the Eternal Kingdom God promised to King David, and Jesus is the Savior promised to Israel. This is taking us into Jesus being the Messiah.
- I see the importance of how Jesus is being identified as Davidic King and Savior - Christ/Messiah - as all of this focused message by Paul. We're dealing with the One to whom all knees shall bow. We're hit immediately with a submission/obedience to Him issue.
- 24-25 John the Baptist's ministry for repentance and his presentation of the One who exceeds him
- 26 After establishing who and what Jesus is - King - Savior - [Messiah] (having laid the foundation of the Christ = Jesus), Paul mentions Salvation (Savior earlier)
- 27-31 Jesus' condemnation, death, burial, and resurrection (which he excerpts for his discussion re: the vital importance of belief in the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15)
- 32 The Good News - the promise God made to the Jewish Fathers
- 33 This Jesus = the Eternal King of the Davidic line / Savior / [Messiah] is resurrected [thus eternal & thus eternal King and Messiah]. Paul uses Psalm 2 to show Jesus is YHWH's Annointed/Messiah/Christ. IMO this is one of the best places to go to understand the position the Christ has. It elaborates His authority, as if His eternal Kingship is not enough to bring in the obedience He is to receive from even the kings of the earth, which is His inheritance. Faith is mentioned at the end of Psalm 2 after a lot of information that should tell the reader that we're dealing with one to whom we must obey.
- 34-37 elaboration on resurrection (just like Paul is doing in 1 Corinthians 15)
- 38 Forgiveness of sins
- 39 Justification
- 40-41 Warnings
My point: When Paul was truly evangelizing this is what he was presenting. The Christ = Jesus is foundational. The death, burial, and then resurrection brings in His eternality and was a sign per John's Gospel that Jesus is The Christ. To the ears of that time, Christ denoted ultimate authority and thus submission and obedience to Him. We assume people know what Christ means. His death, burial, resurrection does not tell people about His authority. I've tested many Christians to explain what Christ means and more often than not they couldn't. The 1 Corinthians 15 excerpt - part of the Gospel - bypasses the obedience issue that "Christ" automatically suggests to one who knows what it means. This meaning and submission to the name is foundational to a correct understanding of who and what we're dealing with.
#3
Now if we accomplish an act of obedience to God is that not a good work?
- Obviously, a good question to which, in light of more Scripture, I'd have to say:
- It might seem like it, but "good work" seems to be only done in Christ.
- Is an act of obedience a work, or works? I'd say I'd have to let God determine where works are applicable. I'd also have to say that you drew a distinction between faith and works, which I would agree with, and in this light, I'd also draw a distinction between obedience and works, that I would not draw between faith & obedience. Paul & Hebrews at minimum make the faith/obedience correlation. James makes the faith + works distinction. So, I'd see it as faith/obedience + works, and not faith + obedience/works. Question: Do I pay you for your obedience, or do I pay you for your [completed] work(s) done in obedience? I think it's the latter and I carry this distinction back into Ephesians 2 and ask who did all the work to come up with and complete and institute for us God's Salvation (which is really what Paul is addressing there)? I know it wasn't any of us, so what are we owed? I think it's this concept that Paul is discussing there and that it's crucial that we pay very close attention to precisely what Paul is speaking about when he speaks about salvation. It's a broader topic than what many narrow it down to be.
- If our work in responding cannot be distinguished from our obedience, then Ephesians 2 remains the battleground and Jesus made a huge mistake in John 6:27 where He commands unbelievers to work to receive the food (teaching) He gives (gifts) that lasts into eternal life. That teaching was to be heard & learned and obeyed for faith and Jesus has no problem commanding those unbelievers to work to receive it (hear and learn then believe/obey). In the background of all this is our Father working to bring about belief (6:44-45) and a statement that their belief is God's work (6:29 - again take this to Ephesians 2). So, it's God's work that is primary, just as it is in Ephesians 2.
To simply state that obedience in general is the very essence of faith leads us to salvation by works
- It leads some or many of us to that conclusion, but it no longer leads me there. As shown above, I see the faith/obedience + works distinction in Scripture. When Paul speaks about "works of Law" and "works" in that context, he's being very technical and speaking in the context of circumcision, for example, and thus in the context of temple-oriented Judaism, which was pre-Christ, said to be a tutoring period that had ended in Christ, and a period of being under subjection to Law instead of under subjection to Grace. He's also dealing within all such discussions with various facets of salvation - both initial & experiential sanctification.
Now good works are produced “out of” faith but there is a distinction between faith “and” works.
- Agree, but would modify and say as have said, that there is a distinction between faith/obedience and works. With this tweak, which I see to align with the Word, you and I could end up much more closely aligned.
#4
In
John 6:40 we read - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Would you consider that a command or a suggestion?
- It's really just a statement of fact.
- To answer your question, to suggest we do the Father's will shouldn't be seen as optional if we want what comes from doing His will. The same goes if His will is expressed in a command. His will is that we all be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and we know if we don't do His will and truly believe, which is for me to believe/obey, then no Salvation. John 6:40 is expressed as His will and 1 John 3:23 is expressed as His command, but they both apply to the same outcome. I'd do His will and obey His command, but that's because I want what He gives. I'd go for command over suggestion, but it's a statement of fact, so neither a command here, nor a suggestion. The command made by God pursuant to God's will in this context is in 6:27, which clearly has Jesus commanding to work to receive His gift (kind of a tough one if we don't see Ephesians 2 and others more precisely).
Apologies for writing a booklet.
