WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[Rapture Bound]

Clare73 stated in post #938:

"So you've included in Hebrews 3:7-4:13 both
1) a warning to possessors of faith (believers), which warnings are how God preserves believers in OSAS, and are not an indication they can lose their salvation, and
2) a warning to professors (only) of the results of the apostasy of unbelief.

This is how all warnings in the NT regarding faith and/or salvation are to be understood, and not as indications that salvation can be lost."


Well, although I wasn't addressing Heb.3:7-4:13 specifically, that is a pretty accurate summation of the conclusion that I've come to by implementing the Molinist "can/won't model of perseverance." Yes, there are other means of supporting my truth statement [i.e. - that genuine believers will not ultimately fall away unto eternal perdition], but ultimately, the core of my premise originates with the "can/won't" Molinist concept. [see my post #1 - page 1 & post #42 - page 3] < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

As an example of another means of supporting and expounding upon my claim, I would point to what is called "the preacher's we." [for example the "we" of Hebrews 3:14, "For [we] are made partakers of Christ, if [we] hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."] The big question here concerns the identity of the "we" that the writer of Hebrews was referring to. For a more complete understanding of my perspective see my post #85 - page 5 < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

"This is how all warnings in the NT regarding faith and/or salvation are to be understood, and not as indications that salvation can be lost."

It appears to me that these warning passages would also necessarily include those parables that would fall [no pun intended] into that classification; let's call them "warning parables."


Returning to your original 2 points :

"1) a warning to possessors of faith (believers), which warnings are how God preserves believers in OSAS, and are not an indication they can lose their salvation, and
2) a warning to professors (only) of the results of the apostasy of unbelief."

IMHO, the common error [and point of great contention between the Traditional Calvinists and Arminians] that is made here is assuming that points 1 and 2 must necessarily be mutually exclusive truth statements. That is to say, you must choose between them, it's an "either/or" proposition. The principles proposed within Molinism allows it to be a mediating [or "balanced"] position that incorporates elements of truths from both sides of the "theological spectrum". This is why many Molinists claim that the issue of the eternal security of the believer cannot be rightly understood without the use of philosophical theology.

I'm very aware that many run away immediately when the word "philosophy" is brought into the realm of theological issues ... please don't fall into pitfall of imagining that reason and faith are mutually exclusive, that is, there is no room for reason [philosophy] in the Christian faith. For instance, any time your Pastor attempts to explain [expound upon and bring clarity to different portions of the scriptures] apart from his using the express words used in the scriptures [i.e., only reading from passages of scripture] he is also "guilty" of utilizing philosophy, [that is, if faith and reason are indeed mutually exclusive].

Philosophy simply entails thinking, reasoning, thought, wisdom, and knowledge. In Isaiah 1:18, the Lord beckons us to apply reason... "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord." We are told to diligently study the scriptures, and how else can this be done without applying these God-given attributes of our minds?

 

[Clare73]

Clare73 stated in post #938:
"So you've included in Hebrews 3:7-4:13 both
1) a warning to possessors of faith (believers), which warnings are how God preserves believers in OSAS, and are not an indication they can lose their salvation, and
2) a warning to professors (only) of the results of the apostasy of unbelief.
This is how all warnings in the NT regarding faith and/or salvation are to be understood, and not as indications that salvation can be lost."

Well, although I wasn't addressing Heb.3:7-4:13 specifically, that is a pretty accurate summation of the conclusion that I've come to by implementing the Molinist "can/won't model of perseverance." Yes, there are other means of supporting my truth statement [i.e. - that genuine believers will not ultimately fall away unto eternal perdition], but ultimately, the core of my premise originates with the "can/won't" Molinist concept. [see my post #1 - page 1:

The great distinction that those who hold to the Molinist model of perseverance (like myself) is seen in the fact that they do not deny that there are certain verses or portions of scripture (warning passages) that do in fact say that a regenerate believer can forfeit their salvation (such as 2 Peter 2:20).

I'm kinda' choking on this in light of the first 19 verses of the chapter describing these false teachers as bold, arrogant, blasphemers, denying the sovereign Lord who bought them, promoting destructive heresies, condemnation and destruction awaiting them, inordinate sexual practicers, despisers of authority, slanderers of celestial beings, brute beasts, creatures of instinct, carousing in broad daylight, eyes full of adultery, experts in greed, an accursed brood, following the way of Balaam, springs without water, mists driven by a storm, users of empty boastful words to appeal to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, slaves of depravity. . .and you think v. 20 teaches they were saved?

Hardly. . .there are no places in the NT where a lifestyle of depravity equates to salvation.

Seeing texts which treat of falling away as God preserving believers through warnings does much less violence to the texts that viewing 2 Peter 2:20 as stating the regenerate can lose salvation.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Clare73 replied in post #942 :

"I'm kinda' choking on this in light of the first 19 verses of the chapter describing these false teachers as bold, arrogant, blasphemers, denying the sovereign Lord who bought them, promoting destructive heresies, condemnation and destruction awaiting them, inordinate sexual practicers, despisers of authority, slanderers of celestial beings, brute beasts, creatures of instinct, carousing in broad daylight, eyes full of adultery, experts in greed, an accursed brood, following the way of Balaam, springs without water, mists driven by a storm, users of empty boastful words to appeal to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, slaves of depravity. . .and you think v. 20 teaches they were saved?

Hardly. . .there are no places in the NT where a lifestyle of depravity equates to salvation.

Seeing texts which treat of falling away as God preserving believers through warnings does much less violence to the texts that viewing 2 Peter 2:20 as stating the regenerate can lose salvation.


"there are no places in the NT where a lifestyle of depravity equates to salvation."....


My reply :

Agreed. The question at hand here is not whether or not those being described in the first 19 verses of 2 Peter 2 are genuine believers, those that are Heaven-bound; it appears obvious to me that they are not. The bigger question here is whether or not some of those being described there were at some point actually regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

It may be the case that some of them were at one time regenerated and some were not. And if that is the case, then the warning(s) applies to both groups. It is very possible that the solution here is not one of choosing one or the other ... the "either/or" scenario. As a OJAJ Molinist, I'm simply proposing the possibility [and even the "likelihood] that it is actually a "both/and" situation. I simply view it as the best solution to a portion of scripture that is extremely challenging to grasp in it's completeness [2 Peter 3:16].

Stating that "the regenerate can lose salvation", and "the regenerate will lose salvation" are two entirely different questions [as I explained in my prior post].

On the issue of the eternal security of the believer, it basically boils down to embracing the "can/won't" model of the perseverance of the believer [that is, if a person is to embrace the OJAJ Molinist perspective/theory on the issue].

If a person comes to the conclusion and conviction that a genuine believer will never forfeit their salvation by means other than the evidence provided by Molinism ...it's all good. As I said, there is much evidence apart from Molinist principles that makes a compelling case for that position. We are all certainly entitled to our opinions; it's simply my opinion that the issue here runs much deeper than most people imagine it to be [on both sides of the coin... those embracing that genuine believers will never forfeit their salvation, and those who claim that some will ].

According to the "can/won't" model, portions of scripture must exist that hypothetically describe the condition of genuine believers, and what the consequences and effects of apostasy would look like if it was actualized.

Concerning 2 Peter 2:20 ... those described are said to be entangled "again", meaning they have again been "overcome" and "servants of corruption" [vs.19] ... the implication here is that at one time they were not "entangled' but rather delivered and set free from the bondage to the world system and their sinful natures [this can only come as a result of the new birth ... of Holy Spirit regeneration].

Hebrews 6:6 carries with it the same thought, "If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance". The word "again" implies that they at one time exercised repentance; and if this repentance wasn't genuine, then I really can't see what the writer of Hebrews intent could possibly be.

And yes, I'm aware of the opposing viewpoints/evidence, and can see how a person might arrive at their perspective [i.e. that those in 2 Peter 2:20 were never truly regenerated]. Again, that is why I've stated that in my opinion, the topic of the eternal security of the believer runs much deeper than most believe [from all that I've seen in the past 35 years or so - which of course is merely subjective].

From my OJAJ Molinist perspective, the real issue here is if these hypothetical scenarios will ever actualize in the life of any genuine, blood-bought believer... and I believe that they simply will not ... in the end, God will preserve them and usher them in safely to Heaven through whatever trials they may face. See my post #55 - page 3, and post #62 - page 4 : < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

 

[Clare73]

Clare73 replied in post #942 :

"I'm kinda' choking on this in light of the first 19 verses of the chapter describing these false teachers as bold, arrogant, blasphemers, denying the sovereign Lord who bought them, promoting destructive heresies, condemnation and destruction awaiting them, inordinate sexual practicers, despisers of authority, slanderers of celestial beings, brute beasts, creatures of instinct, carousing in broad daylight, eyes full of adultery, experts in greed, an accursed brood, following the way of Balaam, springs without water, mists driven by a storm, users of empty boastful words to appeal to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, slaves of depravity. . .and you think v. 20 teaches they were saved?

Hardly. . .there are no places in the NT where a lifestyle of depravity equates to salvation.

Seeing texts which treat of falling away as God preserving believers through warnings does much less violence to the texts that viewing 2 Peter 2:20 as stating the regenerate can lose salvation.


"there are no places in the NT where a lifestyle of depravity equates to salvation."....

My reply :

Agreed. The question at hand here is not whether or not those being described in the first 19 verses of 2 Peter 2 are genuine believers, those that are Heaven-bound; it appears obvious to me that they are not. The bigger question here is whether or not some of those being described there were at some point actually regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

By their fruits you shall know them.

Trees don't change from the kind of seed from which they come.

Olive trees don't produce pomegranates.

When the tree reaches fruit-bearing age, it produces its own kind of fruit--the regenerate tree produces its kind of fruit, and the unregenerate tree produces its kind of fruit.

By their fruits you shall know them.

 

[Gabriel05]

Q1. CAN WE LOSE SALVATION IF WE DEPART THE FAITH BY REJECTING GOD'S WORD AND RETURNING TO A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

Let's look at Hebrews...

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], (6) IF THEY (believers) (7) SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEMSELVES AGAIN TO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY THEMSELVES THE SUN OF GOD AFRESH AND PUT HIM TO OPEN SHAME. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; (8) WHO'S END IS TO BE BURNED.

The following are taken from the above scriptures...
1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

......................

Hebrews 4:6-8 as shown above is talking about believers who were once enlightened who received Gods' Spirit and have tasted of the heavenly gift and the powers of the world to come that had fallen away back into unrepentant sins whos end is to receive Gods' judgements (to be burned). Everything taken above is exegesis taken out of the scriptures verbatim. The same can be done for Hebrews 10:26-39. God's salvation of course is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says (present tense).

continued in the next post....

Hebrews 6:4-6. If we interpret this as you do. We must assume that once someone has Backsliden or walked away from the lord they are lost eternally. The passage says they cannot be renewed to Repentance. Is that your position? It would have to be to be consistent with how you interpret this

You say people cannot be saved who are not obedient. What’s the grading scale here? 99% obedient. 51%. I don’t find a grading curve in the Bible I only see one standard 100% obedience Did Christ die to save us or so he can cut us some slack and grade on a curve

Q1. CAN WE LOSE SALVATION IF WE DEPART THE FAITH BY REJECTING GOD'S WORD AND RETURNING TO A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

Let's look at Hebrews...

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], (6) IF THEY (believers) (7) SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEMSELVES AGAIN TO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY THEMSELVES THE SUN OF GOD AFRESH AND PUT HIM TO OPEN SHAME. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; (8) WHO'S END IS TO BE BURNED.

The following are taken from the above scriptures...
1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

......................

Hebrews 4:6-8 as shown above is talking about believers who were once enlightened who received Gods' Spirit and have tasted of the heavenly gift and the powers of the world to come that had fallen away back into unrepentant sins whos end is to receive Gods' judgements (to be burned). Everything taken above is exegesis taken out of the scriptures verbatim. The same can be done for Hebrews 10:26-39. God's salvation of course is conditional on believi

 

[Gabriel05]

Continuing from the above question...

Q1. CAN WE LOSE SALVATION IF WE DEPART THE FAITH BY REJECTING GOD'S WORD AND RETURNING TO A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

HEBREWS 10:26-31
[26], (1-2) FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], (3) BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], (4) OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YOU SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
[32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions;
[33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used.
[34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
[35], (5) CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward.
[36], (6) FOR YOU HAVE NEED OF PATIENCE, THAT, AFTER YOU HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD, YOU MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE.
[37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith:(7) BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

The following are taken from the above scriptures...

(1). WE (BELIEVERS) can return back to a life of known unrepentant sin; HEBREWS 10:26
(2). WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
(3). WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27
(4). WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; HEBREWS 10:29
(5). WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; HEBREWS 10:35
(6). WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; HEBREWS 10:36
(7). WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; HEBREWS 10:38

.................

All the above of course are Gods' Word which compliments what the writer of Hebrews has already written about believers departing the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin in Hebrews 6:4-8 as shown earlier teaching us that a believer can receive a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and choose to reject it and depart the faith rejecting a knowledge or the truth of Gods' Word in order to return and live in a life of known unrepentant sin and unbelief. Departing the faith therefore as demonstrated above shows that a believer can depart God to return to become an unbeliever who no longer believes and follows what God's Word says to live a life in unbelief and unrepentant sin.

God bless you reader as you seek Him through His Word

Question #2. Hebrews 10 24-26. The letter is addressed to the Jews. Where does it say anything about departing from the faith? The passage is addressed to those who have come to the knowledge of the Truth. The Gospel. They have trampled the grace of God underfoot Rejecting the Covenant of Christ Instead holding to the old covenant with its animal sacrifices Those who have rejected the blood of Christ treated it as an unholy things trampled the grace of God. Have his wrath and fiery indignation awaiting them.

The letter of Hebrews is addressed to unsaved Jews not Christians

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hebrews 6:4-6. If we interpret this as you do. We must assume that once someone has Backsliden or walked away from the lord they are lost eternally. The passage says they cannot be renewed to Repentance. Is that your position? It would have to be to be consistent with how you interpret this

The scriptures are very clear on what they are saying or not saying here.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], (6) IF THEY (believers) (7) SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEMSELVES AGAIN TO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY THEMSELVES THE SUN OF GOD AFRESH AND PUT HIM TO OPEN SHAME. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; (8) WHO'S END IS TO BE BURNED.

The following are taken from the above scriptures...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

Hebrews 4:6-8 as shown above is talking about believers who were once enlightened who received Gods' Spirit and have tasted of the heavenly gift and the powers of the world to come that had fallen away back into unrepentant sins whose end is to receive Gods' judgements (to be burned). Everything taken above is exegesis taken out of the scriptures verbatim. The same can be done for Hebrews 10:26-39. God's salvation of course is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says (present tense). The context here is to those who have fallen away into known unrepentant sin. The condition therefore of what happens to these people is what happens to those who depart the faith in unbelief and sin. It is not talking about someone who might occasionally sin and through repentance and faith confess their sins to God seeking God's forgiveness through faith *see 1 John 2:1-4; 1 John 1:9; John 3:36.

You say people cannot be saved who are not obedient. What’s the grading scale here? 99% obedient. 51%. I don’t find a grading curve in the Bible I only see one standard 100% obedience Did Christ die to save us or so he can cut us some slack and grade on a curve

The grading scale is a simple one. Faith in Christ leading to newness of life (John 3:36; Romans 6:1-23) in all those who have been born again to walk in Gods' Spirit *see John 3:36; Galatians 5:16; 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27.

If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Question #2. Hebrews 10 24-26. The letter is addressed to the Jews. Where does it say anything about departing from the faith? The passage is addressed to those who have come to the knowledge of the Truth. The Gospel. They have trampled the grace of God underfoot Rejecting the Covenant of Christ Instead holding to the old covenant with its animal sacrifices Those who have rejected the blood of Christ treated it as an unholy things trampled the grace of God. Have his wrath and fiery indignation awaiting them.

The letter of Hebrews is addressed to unsaved Jews not Christians

My bible says that... "all these things happened to them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the world are come." - 1 Corinthians 10:11 and again; "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." - 2 Timothy 3:16. All of God's Word therefore is for Gods' people as it is written further, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." - Romans 2:28-29. All of God's Word therefore is written for our admonition upon who the ends of the world have come.

God bless

 

[GDL]

My bible says

A couple other interesting posts well related to this thread:

"Faith without works is dead." Explain this, please.

"Faith without works is dead." Explain this, please.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

A couple other interesting posts well related to this thread:

"Faith without works is dead." Explain this, please.

"Faith without works is dead." Explain this, please.

@Soyeong often contributes very thoughtful, well-written and biblically sound posts regarding obedience to God's laws through faith/love.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

A couple other interesting posts well related to this thread:

"Faith without works is dead." Explain this, please.

"Faith without works is dead." Explain this, please.

Hi Gary, nice to see you. Yes we have a common view that God's salvation is from sin leading us to obedience by faith that works by love (Romans 6:1-23; Romans 13:8-10). Where we tend to disagree is in the old covenant Sanctuary laws for remission of sins, the annual Feast days and literal physical circumcision and their application in the new covenant. I believe all these old covenant laws were prophetic "shadow laws" that point to Jesus as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29: 36; Hebrews 10:10, Jesus as our true great high priest *Hebrews 7:1-25 and God's plan of salvation for mankind under the new covenant. All these things now being fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to and are now continued in Christs work on our behalf under the new covenant in the heavenly Sanctuary. Jesus is now our Great high priest in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man of which the earthly was only a copy based on better promises under God's new covenant promise (Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22).

God bless

 

[GDL]

Hi Gary, nice to see you. Yes we have a common view

I'm assuming you're speaking of Soyeong when you say "we." Thank you for the insights. There is always disagreement somewhere it seems. On the positive side, I find it refreshing that there is this level of agreement regarding salvation when I'm reading posts from 2 who identify as SDA, a Messianic, and myself who simply identifies as Christian. I've also been pleasantly surprised on this forum that I have had certain levels of agreement re: salvation with some who identify as Catholics and some others as well.

BTW, thanks also for returning and answering some of the new posts in what I had thought was an ended discussion.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm assuming you're speaking of Soyeong when you say "we." Thank you for the insights. There is always disagreement somewhere it seems. On the positive side, I find it refreshing that there is this level of agreement regarding salvation when I'm reading posts from 2 who identify as SDA, a Messianic, and myself who simply identifies as Christian. I've also been pleasantly surprised on this forum that I have had certain levels of agreement re: salvation with some who identify as Catholics and some others as well.

BTW, thanks also for returning and answering some of the new posts in what I had thought was an ended discussion.

I know this wasn't posted to me and I agree it is refreshing to have users agree we need to obey God through faith/love. The biggest contention on these forums seems to be defining what God's law are and does the Chruch have the authority to change God's personally written laws, do all of the commandments transfer over in the new covenant or only nine of the Ten commandments as many teach. The Sabbath commandment appears to be the biggest disagreement on these forums. As you might be able to tell from my username, what I believe. In the end, I think the Sabbath is what it is going to be about. Do we worship God in truth and spirit which means keeping all of the laws of God or do we worship in vain obeying man's authority over the commandments of God, which is what Jesus warns us about. Matthew 15:3-9.

 

[GDL]

I know this wasn't posted to me and I agree it is refreshing to have users agree we need to obey God through faith/love. The biggest contention on these forums seems to be defining what God's law are and does the Chruch have the authority to change God's personally written laws, do all of the commandments transfer over in the new covenant or only nine of the Ten commandments as many teach. The Sabbath commandment appears to be the biggest disagreement on these forums. As you might be able to tell from my username, what I believe. In the end, I think the Sabbath is what it is going to be about. Do we worship God in truth and spirit which means keeping all of the laws of God or do we worship in vain obeying man's authority over the commandments of God, which is what Jesus warns us about. Matthew 15:3-9.

I find your posts refreshing and interesting and am happy to have you chime in on anything.

I think the contention in line with what you say also includes the "works' salvation" issue.

I mostly watch the Sabbath debates and all the statements made by each side. I've watched several videos made by SDA teachers that evidence many of the things stated by you and LGW.

Before the Messianic movement really began to spread, I began reading and listening to their views, and still do at times. I've read many Messianic oriented books over the years. About 2 decades ago my favorite to this day congregational experience was attending for some time a small Messianic congregation that assembled on Friday evening - Shabbath Shalom was the greeting. The Rabbi focused on the teaching of the Word and when pertinent explaining the special days and times of Torah from a Christian perspective. I find one of the least credible points of view to be that of the group that changed from God's specified day that He set aside from creation to another day. I also find many of the interpretations of any related verses to be lacking in recognition of the evening-to-evening day.

In addition, I have an ongoing & now very lengthy study of all the commands contained in the New Covenant writings. God's Law was of great interest to me from the beginning of my entering the Faith. I've read many books on the subject. I find it interesting how many Christians seem to have never noticed Genesis 26:5 which speaks of a time preceding Moses. Also, some studies I've read show how 9 of the 10 commandments can be seen being referred to in Genesis concerning pre-Moses times, and that God was very early speaking to and warning Cain about sin, which is lawlessness.

When studying commands, there is more than one way to identify them grammatically in Greek. Also, at times I get the impression that conditional statements are at minimum inferring a command, or they are clearly expressing God's will to a reasoning mind. IOW, there's more than one way to see commands in Scripture and it takes a lot of work to identify them all.

With the above in mind, one question re: Sabbath pursuant to Genesis 2 that was a question for me long ago in the debate and as I recall maybe a point that I read or heard others point out along the way, is, why do we not just see the respect and purpose God engendered into the day when He pointed out His rest and when He set it aside as holy? IOW, why do we always have to look for a command, when commands are stated and inferred in Scripture in several ways? If we carry this with us in our studies, then why are we so concerned to be looking for 10 of 10 vs. 9 of 10 (especially when so many of God's standards need to be carried forth from Torah and assumed in the New Covenant), and why are some of us not reading that a rest is still out in front of us and the day that carries forth this reality was set aside for our benefit and instruction and reminder (Sabbath for man & not man for Sabbath) at creation?

For me debates like this are best to have point-by-point in Scripture-by-Scripture instead of in the denominational fervor and confusion that typically ensues from many, but not all.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I find your posts refreshing and interesting and am happy to have you chime in on anything.

I think the contention in line with what you say also includes the "works' salvation" issue.

I mostly watch the Sabbath debates and all the statements made by each side. I've watched several videos made by SDA teachers that evidence many of the things stated by you and LGW.

Before the Messianic movement really began to spread, I began reading and listening to their views, and still do at times. I've read many Messianic oriented books over the years. About 2 decades ago my favorite to this day congregational experience was attending for some time a small Messianic congregation that assembled on Friday evening - Shabbath Shalom was the greeting. The Rabbi focused on the teaching of the Word and when pertinent explaining the special days and times of Torah from a Christian perspective. I find one of the least credible points of view to be that of the group that changed from God's specified day that He set aside from creation to another day. I also find many of the interpretations of any related verses to be lacking in recognition of the evening-to-evening day.

In addition, I have an ongoing & now very lengthy study of all the commands contained in the New Covenant writings. God's Law was of great interest to me from the beginning of my entering the Faith. I've read many books on the subject. I find it interesting how many Christians seem to have never noticed Genesis 26:5 which speaks of a time preceding Moses. Also, some studies I've read show how 9 of the 10 commandments can be seen being referred to in Genesis concerning pre-Moses times, and that God was very early speaking to and warning Cain about sin, which is lawlessness.

When studying commands, there is more than one way to identify them grammatically in Greek. Also, at times I get the impression that conditional statements are at minimum inferring a command, or they are clearly expressing God's will to a reasoning mind. IOW, there's more than one way to see commands in Scripture and it takes a lot of work to identify them all.

With the above in mind, one question re: Sabbath pursuant to Genesis 2 that was a question for me long ago in the debate and as I recall maybe a point that I read or heard others point out along the way, is, why do we not just see the respect and purpose God engendered into the day when He pointed out His rest and when He set it aside as holy? IOW, why do we always have to look for a command, when commands are stated and inferred in Scripture in several ways? If we carry this with us in our studies, then why are we so concerned to be looking for 10 of 10 vs. 9 of 10 (especially when so many of God's standards need to be carried forth from Torah and assumed in the New Covenant), and why are some of us not reading that a rest is still out in front of us and the day that carries forth this reality was set aside for our benefit and instruction and reminder (Sabbath for man & not man for Sabbath) at creation?

For me debates like this are best to have point-by-point in Scripture-by-Scripture instead of in the denominational fervor and confusion that typically ensues from many, but not all.

Thanks for your reply. I will reply in more detail when time allows for me. I did want to say this, I think there is so much contention about the 4th commandment and holy day of thy Lord thy God, which tells me how powerful this law is! The devil wants to be like God and has made a counterfeit to everything God made or has tried to. We are told the devil deceives the whole world. Revelation tells us the mark of the beast is about worship. Revelation 13, Revelation 14 Do we worship God, or do we worship the beast? The 4th commandment is all about worship. Do we worship God on His terms? The Ten Commandments written by the finger of God or what was changed by man that we were warned about Daniel 7:25, Matthew 15:3-9. The 4th commandment is very powerful! Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I am sure @LoveGodsWord will be able to chime in too.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I am sure @LoveGodsWord will be able to chime in too.

Thanks I like talking with both you and @GDL especially since we are building our understanding together on the same foundation in Christ through faith in His words (Matthew 25:34; Luke 6:48). We are already in agreement that Gods' salvation is conditional to believing and following what Gods' Word says (John 3:36; Matthew 7:21) and that this very salvation is by faith which leads us to obey what God's Word says from a new heart from Gods' new covenant promise to love *Romans 3:31 as we walk in His Spirit (Galatians 5:16; Hebrews 8:10-12; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27). Love as we have already discussed is demonstrated in the lives of those believe Gods' Word through obedience to Gods' law as shown in the very words of Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; Matthew 19:16-19, Paul in Romans 13:8-10, James in James 2:10-11 and John in 1 John 5:2-3; 1 John 2:3-4 in all those who have been born again to love *1 John 3:4-9.

According to the scriptures faith as we all agree here is not separate from obedience to Gods law and believing and following what God's Word says because according to Jesus if we love Him we will do what he asks us to do (John 14:15; Matthew 7:21). So our understanding of the scriptures are in agreement with what God's Word says and that is that genuine faith is obedience to God's law *Romans 3:31 just like love to God and man is obedience to Gods' law from the heart in those who have been born again to love. Of course we know this is an ongoing process of sanctification we we continue learning about Gods' Word and growing in knowledge and Gods' grace through faith (John 17:17; John 8:31-36). So very simply faith, love and obedience to Gods' law are not separate from each other. There is only a separation process in our understanding of God's Word when we are babes in Christ and continue to grow because we do not as yet understand everything in regards to what God's Word says. So in these times of ignorance while we are living up to all the light that God has revealed to us through His Spirit God does not hold us accountable to unknown sin until he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and at that time can expects us to believe and follow what His Word says (see James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and Hebrews 10:26-31).

So as posted elsewhere already according to the scriptures in John the only test to know if we know God is if we keep His commandments which is the fruit of faith that leads us to obedience or to obey Gods commandments (see 1 John 2:3-4). This is why Jesus says you shall know them, that is who is from God and who is not from God by their fruits (Matthew 7:16-23). John further shows that the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil is that those who know God do not make a practice of sin (1 John 3:6 compare 1 John 2:3-4) which is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11, not believing God's and following what Gods' Word says *Romans 14:23; James 2:17-26. Sin therefore is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil. *1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 12:17: Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

This of course leads us to the elephant in the room which for many is Gods 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath of creation that God made for all mankind (Mark 2:27) on the seventh day of the creation week (Genesis 2:1-3) where he rested after he finished His work of creation and set apart the "seventh day" and blessed "the seventh day" of the week as a Holy day of rest for all mankind as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth that he commands His people to "Remember" I guess because he knew that most of us (Christianity) would forget.

It is interesting because there is not a single scripture in all of God's Word that tells us anywhere that God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. This is a man-made teaching and tradition of some in the early Church that has now led many away from Gods' Word to break the commandments of God. Jesus warns us in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we knowingly choose to follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God.

God know however that many follow this man-made teaching and traditions of Sunday worship out of ignorance and in times of ignorance God winks at until he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word. At this time God expects us to believe and follow what His Word says and come out from following man-made teaching and traditions to worship Him in Spirit and in truth according to what His Word says (Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-31). According to the scriptures, God has His people in every Church who are living up to all the light of God's Word that he has revealed to them *John 10:16. The time is coming and now is according to Jesus however that there will be one fold and that fold is made up of all those everywhere who believe and follow what God's Word says. Jesus says "the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24.

God is calling us all out from following man-made teachings and traditions like Sunday worship that have led many away from God and His Word to break His commandments back to the pure Word of God. Jesus says if we continue to knowingly follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. This begs the question if Sunday worship is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God and there is no scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection, who do we believe and follow, God or man?

I might share an interesting post and scriptures I believe will be a test coming to all of us that was from another thread that was posted yesterday that I think is relevant here in the next post..

more to come

 

[LoveGodsWord]

@GDL and @SabbathBlessings the post below was from another thread that I think is relevant to the last post and obedience to the faith posted below from a recent closed thread located here.

WHO DO WE WORSHIP?

From Revelation 13 and Revelation 14 we see that the "mark of the beast" is over who we choose to worship. Do we worship the beast and his image or do we worship the God of creation who created the heavens and earth and the sea and the fountains and the waters outlined in the first angels message (Revelation 14:6-7). The mark of the beast therefore is directly linked to who and how we worship and believe and follow as shown in the scriptures.

Revelation 13 One group of people will worship the dragon's beast and his image and receive the mark of the beast in their hand or forehead...

• The devil and the first beast of Revelation 13 are linked together in worship *Revelation 13:4
• All the world will follow this beast in worship *Revelation 13:3-4
• This beast speaks blasphemies against God and his Sanctuary *Revelation 13:5
• This beast makes war with Gods' true saints *Revelation 13:7; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12
• All those who are not found in the book of life will worship this beast *Revelation 13:8
• A second beast will arise has the same power as the first and speaks like the dragon *Revelation 13:11-12
• The second beast will cause all to worship and follow the first beast *Revelation 13:12
• Has power to cause those who do not worship first beast should be killed *Revelation 13:15
• The second beast will make an image to the first beast and those who do not worship this image should be killed *Revelation 13:15.
• Those who worship the beast image will receive the mark of the beast in their hand or forehead *Revelation 13:16; Revelation 14:9-10

As shown above from the scriptures Revelation 13 is showing that the whole world will follow after and worship the first beast which is linked with the devil *Revelation 13:3-4. This beast will make war with Gods' true saints (Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12) who do not follow after in in worship. All those not found in God' book of life will worship the first beast. *Revelation 13:8. A second beast will arise out of the earth and force all those on the earth to worship the first beast *Revelation 13:11-12. The second beast has power to cause all who do not worship the first beast to be killed. The second beast will make an image to the first beast and has power to cause all who do not worship this image to the first beast to be killed. Those who worship the beasts image will receive the mark of the beast in their hand or forehead *Revelation 13:16; Revelation 14:9-10.

Revelation 14 Another group of people will receive the everlasting gospel and worship the God of creation in truth and keeping God's commandments...

• The everlasting gospel being proclaimed to the whole world *Revelation 14:6
  
• The everlasting gospel is telling us to fear God in contrast to the beast and his image *Revelation 14:7; Revelation 13:3-4; Revelation 13:7; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 13:15
  
• Gods judgement has come against those who worship the beast *Revelation 14:7; Revelation 13:8
  
• The call back to worship the God of creation who made all things in heaven and earth
• Those who worship the beast will receive the mark of the beast in the hand or forehead *Revelation 13:16; Revelation 14:9-10
• If any man worships the beast and his image the same receives Gods judgements *Revelation 14:9-11
• God has a people who choose to fear God instead of the beast and his image and they worship him and by keeping his commandments *Revelation 14:12

Revelation 14:6-12 are interesting scriptures because they are contrasting the worship of God with the worship of the beast and his image from Revelation 13 and receiving the mark of the beast with God's judgements. Therefore receiving the mark of the beast is over who we choose to believe, follow and worship. Will we choose to believe follow and worship the beast and his image or will we fear God and worship him knowing that the hour of his judgement is come and worship the true God of creation.
Revelation 13 and Revelation 14 is contrasting two different groups of people. The majority (the world) will receive the mark of the beast by following after and worshiping the dragons beast while the second group refuse to worship of the beast and it's image and not receive the beast mark in their hand (doing) or their foreheads (believing). Gods people in contrast choose rather to worship God and are called "the saints" who keep the commandments of God *Revelation 14:12. Therefore the difference between those described in the scriptures as being "Gods saints" *Revelation 14:12 and those who worship the beast and receive it's mark is over worship and the keeping of the commandments of God.

Sunday worship is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. There is not one scripture in all of Gods Word that says Gods' 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. Jesus says in His own words that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. This begs the question in light of the scriptures provided above if we are not worshiping God by breaking Gods commandments according to Jesus then who are we worshiping? This is in contrast to God's saints who keep all the commandments of God in Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14.

No one worships the God of creation therefore by following man-made teachings and traditions that lead us to break the commandments of God *Matthew 15:3-9. According to the scriptures Gods people are in every Church living up to all the light that God has given them *John 10:16 but according to Jesus hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers *Revelation 14:12 will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24. God is calling his people out from following man-made teachings and traditions of men that beak the commandments of God back to worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

BABYLON (the mother of harlots) and her daughters have fallen away from God and His Word in order to follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. Who will we choose to believe, follow and worship? This is will be the question coming to everyone of us according to the scriptures. After the second coming it will be too late to make our minds up as His reward is with him *Revelation 22:11-14 and only those who are written in the lambs book of life will continue in the new heavens and the new earth according to the scriptures as it is written "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, said the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain and it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, said the LORD." - Isaiah 66:22-23 and again "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12

The question remains, that only each one of us can answer for ourselves, who do we believe, follow and worship; the teachings and traditions of men that lead us to break the commandments of God or the Word of God?

May you receive Gods Word and be blessed.

 

[GDL]

"the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24.

Even though I might state a few things a bit differently, I am very much in agreement with you.

I would like to point out and clarify about this one quote, that the word being translated as "worship" that John says Jesus used 8 times in 4 sentences, at its basic means to "bow in obeisance" as to one in high authority. It's a word that denotes submission to authority and thus obedience. The frequency of use in the 4 verses (John 4:21-24) is placing great emphasis on this and Jesus is clear that such people are the ones God is seeking. It ties perfectly to the truth of the Gospel you present and the necessity of continuing and growing obedience to God and His commandments, which is truly loving God and people. It thus ties to the full scope of our Biblical Salvation in Christ Jesus. It's a good word to search and read where and how it is used. It's used in parallel to statements of bowing down and even falling down on one's face before Him. It's used several times in Revelation. It ties to the language that tells us that at His name all knees shall bow, in Heaven and on earth. If only more would just realize that this is what God is seeking and will ultimately have whether it be willingly in faith or unwillingly in His judgment of the lawless.

 

[GDL]

WHO DO WE WORSHIP?

From Revelation 13 and Revelation 14 we see that the "mark of the beast" is over who we choose to worship.

I'm going to read this post slowly, so it may take some time for me to comment. Pursuant to what I just said in my previous post #958 about John 4:21-24, I will point out that the same word that means "to bow in obeisance to authority is the word used 7 times in Revelation 13-14. "Worship" can mean a few things and there is more than one word being translated as such. But this word used in John 4 and Revelation 13-14 speaks succinctly of who and what people are bowing to and obeying. It speaks of who they see as being in authority. This is the issue being worked out in history and we who know and willingly obey Christ - God - in faith, are the ones who will have eternal life with Him. He is God. This is His Creation. He will ultimately have what He wills. It's really pretty simple at the end of all this analysis we do. Faith/Obedience/Love as He commands, teaches, defines as the Word of Truth. Simple.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'm going to read this post slowly, so it may take some time for me to comment. Pursuant to what I just said in my previous post #958 about John 4:21-24, I will point out that the same word that means "to bow in obeisance to authority is the word used 7 times in Revelation 13-14. "Worship" can mean a few things and there is more than one word being translated as such. But this word used in John 4 and Revelation 13-14 speaks succinctly of who and what people are bowing to and obeying. It speaks of who they see as being in authority. This is the issue being worked out in history and we who know and willingly obey Christ - God - in faith, are the ones who will have eternal life with Him. He is God. This is His Creation. He will ultimately have what He wills. It's really pretty simple at the end of all this analysis we do. Faith/Obedience/Love as He commands, teaches, defines as the Word of Truth. Simple.

Hi Gary, yes I agree with both of your posts and the comments you have provided here. I think I might make a new thread on "Who do you worship?" The post above is only showing application of worship of the two groups of people in Revelation 13 and Revelation 14. The first who worship the Dragons (Satan's) beast and his image and receive "the mark of the beast. These being the lost not found in the Lambs book of life who do not worship God in Spirit and in truth or keep God's Word (Revelation 3:7-12). The second group of course being "the saints" those who are the saved who do not follow after or worship the Dragon's beast and his image who worship the God of creation and keep all the commandments of God and the Word of God having "the true faith" of Jesus.

I am continuing this same study of "Who do we worship?" as applied to Revelation 13 and Revelation 14 but seeing very strong links and scriptural definitions being applied here of course to John 4:23-24 but also to Matthew 15:3-9; with strong links to false teachings and man-made tradition leading us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God in Isaiah 29:9-16 that Jesus is quoting from in Matthew 15:3-9 with context and application of Isaiah 29:9-16 to Isaiah 28:5-16 that shows Gods' people drunken with the wine of false teachings not keeping the word of God *Revelation 3:7-12 or His commandments (Revelation 14:12) but instead following false man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God (Matthew 15:3-9 - Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9 is also quoting Isaiah 29:9-16, that has context to Isaiah 28:5-16 (false teachings) Mark 4:20-24; Revelation 3:7-12; Revelation 13 and Revelation 14:6-12).

Thanks Gary, I enjoyed reading your posts as always. I will post more on the above I think and send you a link once completed but I agree all of this (Who we worship, who we believe and follow) is indeed effects our salvation. As Jesus says, the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. That is those who keep Gods' Word and obey what it says.

HAPPY SABBATH my time.

God bless Gary