WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[LoveGodsWord]

There is no disagreement on my side. As I have said, in the case of honoring one day over another, those of weaker faith are bound to what they believe, and those of greater faith are free in what we believe. I do not encourage you to break your faith by not keeping the Sabbath if that is what you feel God has called you to do. But I am not called to keep that day as any more sacred than any other day. I honor God equally in all days. This is not meant as an encouragement for you to live as I do, nor am I criticizing you for your faith.

Doug this is repetition already addressed with a detailed scripture response in post # 96 linked and in post # 143 linked. I think I asked you there to show me where in Romans 14 is it talking about God's 4th commandment. Romans 14 does not mention it anywhere and Gods' 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath has nothing to do with Romans 14 as it is talking about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other day and judging others in this regard. Romans 14 is not talking about the days that God esteems over other days. Let me ask you again, can you show me where in Romans 14 that it is talking about Gods' 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath? To come up with that interpretation you need to read that into the scripture because it is not there.

Take Care dear friend.

 

[Doug Brents]

The question asked of you was....

Q1. Why would Jesus be teaching us how to correctly keep the Sabbath showing us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath if we were no longer required to keep the Sabbath?

The answer is that it really isn’t about the Sabbath. It is about how to honor God. The Sabbath is just an incidental and is about how we honor God. The Pharisees were putting man’s rules above God’s command. God never told the Israelites how to keep the Sabbath holy (except for a very few examples (kindling a new fire, leaving your home)). So Jesus was giving demonstrations of how to honor Go’s, and to keep Him foremost in our hearts. Further, He demonstrated that it is the heart condition (the attitude, the reason we do what we do) that determines if something is good and pleasing to God, or not. Does God want you to follow a rule ahead of showing love? No!

 

[Doug Brents]

Well your just avoiding answering the question asked you here Doug and have started talking about random stuff unrelated to the question being asked of you. The question asked of you was "If the Sabbath was no longer a requirement in the new covenant why did not Jesus tell any of His Apostles or disciples about this fact while he was alive or after His resurrection? Yet we see the scriptures telling is that Jesus as our example kept the Sabbath as did all the disciples and Apostles even after the death and resurrection of Jesus *see Luke 4:16; Luke 23:55-56; Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelation 1:10?" How does the response you have provided above answer the question being asked of you? - It doesn't. As shown from the scriptures already "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is the Sabbath day (see Matthew 12:8). There is no scriptures anywhere in the bible that says Sunday or the first day of the week in "the Lords day". This is a man-made teaching and tradition that not supported in the scriptures. Did you want to try answering the question this time?

more to come....

The vast majority of what Jesus taught is not recorded, as John says at the end of his Gospel. But the focus of what was recorded is the things that were of most importance. Jesus kept the Sabbath because His entire life was lived under the Mosaic Law; if He hadn’t kept the Sabbath He would have sinned (and He never sinned).

Now the fact that the Apostles continued to observe the Sabbath is mostly habit, and the fact that their audience continued to keep the Sabbath because they thought they were still under the Old Covenant (until they were converted to Christianity).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Q1. Why would Jesus be teaching us how to correctly keep the Sabbath showing us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31) if we were no longer required to keep the Sabbath?

Your response here...

The answer is that it really isn’t about the Sabbath. It is about how to honor God. The Sabbath is just an incidental and is about how we honor God. The Pharisees were putting man’s rules above God’s command. God never told the Israelites how to keep the Sabbath holy (except for a very few examples (kindling a new fire, leaving your home)). So Jesus was giving demonstrations of how to honor Go’s, and to keep Him foremost in our hearts. Further, He demonstrated that it is the heart condition (the attitude, the reason we do what we do) that determines if something is good and pleasing to God, or not. Does God want you to follow a rule ahead of showing love? No!

We are going off topic here a little but the questions asked of you earlier were all about the Sabbath that is what the question were about in the post you are quoting from that were directed at the claims you were making that were unsupported by scripture and all the other similar questions asked of you that you have chosen to ignore for whatever reason. Of course if you do not want to answer those questions you were never under any obligation to do so if you do not want to. Perhaps they will give you something to pray about. They were only posted to be helpful to the conversation and a blessing to anyone reading them.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The vast majority of what Jesus taught is not recorded, as John says at the end of his Gospel. But the focus of what was recorded is the things that were of most importance. Jesus kept the Sabbath because His entire life was lived under the Mosaic Law; if He hadn’t kept the Sabbath He would have sinned (and He never sinned). Now the fact that the Apostles continued to observe the Sabbath is mostly habit, and the fact that their audience continued to keep the Sabbath because they thought they were still under the Old Covenant (until they were converted to Christianity).

Well for me Doug I believe that what you have posted above are all your words based on conjecture unsupported by scriptures so I guess we will agree to disagree here. According to scriptures though from the very words of Jesus, he is the Lord and creator of the Sabbath that he made for all mankind in Mark 2:27-28. There was no Jew when Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind on the seventh day of the creation week in Genesis 2:1-3 and Jesus did not tell any of the disciples or the Apostles anywhere in the scriptures that God's 4th commandment was going to be abolished while he was on earth either before His death or after His resurrection. In fact the scriptures teach us that the Sabbath commandment is an everlasting covenant and a sign given to God's people that will be continued to be kept in the new earth well after the second coming *Exodus 31:16-17; Isaiah 66:22-23. The fact that the Sabbath is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken in the new covenant should be warning enough in itself *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 1 John 3:4 and the fact that James says if we break anyone of them God's 10 commandments should put it all to rest. There is nowhere in the new covenant scriptures that says Gods 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word according to Jesus in Matthew 15:2-9.

Take care.

 

[ozso]

Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. Galatians 3:23-25 NIV

 

[Doug Brents]

Romans 14 does not mention it anywhere and Gods' 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath has nothing to do with Romans 14 as it is talking about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other day and judging others in this regard.

Sorry, but you are esteeming one day over others. So the passage does apply to this conversation. You believe that when God fulfilled the Old Covenant in Jesus that He only fulfilled and abolished the sacrificial system, but not the laws and mandates of the “moral code”. But there is no distinction anywhere in Scripture that makes that claim. All of the old Covenant with all of the laws and all of the requirements of it were wiped clean. And the New covenant was established with the new moral code in Christ. The new moral code is similar to the old, but it is both more freeing and more strict.

Romans 14 does not need to specify the Sabbath because it is referring to ALL days that man would esteem above any other: Sabbath, Christmas, Passover, etc.

 

[Doug Brents]

Your response here...

It is all about the Sabbath that is what the question was about in the post you are quoting from and all the other ones in the posts you have chosen to ignore. Of course if you do not want to answer those questions you were never under any obligation to do so if you do not want to. Perhaps they will give you something to pray about. They were only posted to be helpful to the conversation and a blessing to anyone reading them.

I have answered all of those questions. I cannot help it if you don’t like the answers. The fact that you disagree with my answers doesn’t mean that I have not answered them.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. Galatians 3:23-25 NIV

Exactly! I think this is the first time I have rated one of your posts Brian good scripture which makes my point here. If there is no law we have no knowledge of what sin is. The purpose of God's law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith. According to Romans 3:19-20 to be "under the law" means to be standing before God guilty of breaking the law. Jesus bring God's forgiveness through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9. That however does not mean Gods law is abolished it just meas we are forgiven because those who are born again do not practice sin (breaking God's law) 1 John 3:6-9.

Welcome back Brian

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sorry, but you are esteeming one day over others. So the passage does apply to this conversation. You believe that when God fulfilled the Old Covenant in Jesus that He only fulfilled and abolished the sacrificial system, but not the laws and mandates of the “moral code”. But there is no distinction anywhere in Scripture that makes that claim. All of the old Covenant with all of the laws and all of the requirements of it were wiped clean. And the New covenant was established with the new moral code in Christ. The new moral code is similar to the old, but it is both more freeing and more strict. Romans 14 does not need to specify the Sabbath because it is referring to ALL days that man would esteem above any other: Sabbath, Christmas, Passover, etc.

Not at all. As shown from the scriptures already, Romans 14 there is no mention of the Sabbath here. To get that interpretation you have to read that into the scriptures. This was proven from the scriptures as shown in post # 96 linked and in post # 143 linked that you simply chose to ignore and not respond to. So I guess we will agree to disagree here dear friend. Your teaching lawlessness (without law) here which is not biblical according to the scriptures.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I have answered all of those questions. I cannot help it if you don’t like the answers. The fact that you disagree with my answers doesn’t mean that I have not answered them.

Actually you didn't but that is ok. Of course if you do not want to answer those questions you were never under any obligation to do so if you did not want to. Perhaps they will give you something to pray about. They were only posted to be helpful to the conversation and a blessing to anyone reading them.

Take Care dear friend.

 

[Doug Brents]

Not at all. As shown from the scriptures already, Romans 14 there is no mention of the Sabbath here. To get that interpretation you have to read that into the scriptures. This was proven from the scriptures as shown in post # 96 linked and in post # 143 linked that you simply chose to ignore and not respond to. So I guess we will agree to disagree here dear friend. Your teaching lawlessness (without law) here which is not biblical according to the scriptures.

You proved to yourself in post 96, but the verses you used don’t say what you are trying to make them say, as revealed in my previous responses. If you want to continue to believe what you are saying, I won’t stop you. I don’t believe this is a salvation issue (although for you it may be).

I honor God, and hold every day equally holy, because He is equally holy every day. My life, everything I do and say, all my interactions, I continually try to dedicate to Him, although, being human, I fail constantly and continue to need His forgiveness, mercy, and grace.

I pray that you also revel in His mercy, and continue in His grace.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You proved to yourself in post 96, but the verses you used don’t say what you are trying to make them say, as revealed in my previous responses. If you want to continue to believe what you are saying, I won’t stop you. I don’t believe this is a salvation issue (although for you it may be).

I honor God, and hold every day equally holy, because He is equally holy every day. My life, everything I do and say, all my interactions, I continually try to dedicate to Him, although, being human, I fail constantly and continue to need His forgiveness, mercy, and grace.

I pray that you also revel in His mercy, and continue in His grace.

Sorry Doug but I respectfully disagree. Both post # 96 linked and in post # 143 linked that your unwilling to response to, prove from the scriptures alone that your reading the Sabbath into Romans 14:5 (eisegesis) once context is added back into the discussion and shows the chapter is not even talking about the Sabbath, but eating and drinking on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard. I have asked you many times now to prove to me from Romans 14 that it is talking about the Sabbath but you refuse to address this question to you. Of course you do not have to if you do not want to that is up to you. Also, according to the scriptures we should worship God every day *Acts of the Apostles 2:47-48. This was never the issue. The discussion and issue is about sin and obedience or disobedience to Gods' law through faith. According to the scriptures God's 4th commandment is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4), it is about resting and not doing any work on the day God blessed and set aside as a holy day of rest as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of Heaven and earth (see Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). According to the scriptures, when God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we then choose to reject it in order to knowingly practice sin then to us it is sin *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17. According to James if we continue in known unrepentant sin we stand before God guilty of breaking all of them (see Hebrews 10:26-31; James 2:10-11). We should therefore prayerfully ask God that we do not harden our hearts to hearing and believing what God's Word says according to Hebrews 3:8-19; Hebrews 4:1-11.

Take Care Doug.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry Doug but I respectfully disagree. Both post # 96 linked and in post # 143 linked that your unwilling to response to, prove from the scriptures alone that your reading the Sabbath into Romans 14:5 (eisegesis) once context is added back into the discussion and shows the chapter is not even talking about the Sabbath, but eating and drinking on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard. I have asked you many times now to prove to me from Romans 14 that it is talking about the Sabbath but you refuse to address this question to you. Of course you do not have to if you do not want to that is up to you. Also, according to the scriptures we should worship God every day *Acts of the Apostles 2:47-48. This was never the issue. The discussion and issue is about sin and obedience to Gods' law through faith and it is sin to break anyone of God's 10 commandments according to the new covenant scriptures *James 2:10-11. According to God's 4th commandment it is about resting and not doing any work on the day God blessed and set aside as a holy day of rest as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of Heaven and earth. According to the scriptures, when God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we then choose to reject it in order to practice sin then to us it is sin *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17 according to James we stand before God of breaking all of them (see Hebrews 10:26-31; James 2:10-11). We should therefore prayerfully ask God that we do not harden our hearts to hearing and believing what God's Word says according to Hebrews 3:8-19; Hebrews 4:1-11.

Take Care Doug.

I will not belabor this discussion any more. I have shown clearly, from Scripture, support for all of my assertions. And I answered your questions, again, from Scripture. The fact that you disagree is sad, but you are free to do so.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I will not belabor this discussion any more. I have shown clearly, from Scripture, support for all of my assertions. And I answered your questions, again, from Scripture. The fact that you disagree is sad, but you are free to do so.

Actually I do not believe you have shown anything from the scriptures that supports your teachings once context was added back into the discussion. You have also not answered the questions asked of you but that is ok I did not expect you to which is why I ended up answering them myself from the scriptures provided to you earlier. The fact that you disagree with what has been shared with you from the scriptures is indeed sad so I guess we will agree to disagree. Thank you for the discussion though.

Take care.

 

[returntosender]

Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. Galatians 3:23-25 NIV

Ty

 

[HIM]

S

Romans 14 does not need to specify the Sabbath because it is referring to ALL days that man would esteem above any other: Sabbath, Christmas, Passover, etc.

No, one has to assume what you are asserting. Assert what is not there.

 

[FreeGrace2]

WHY OUR SALVATION CAN BE LOST

Greetings with much love to all my fellow Christians in the Lord Jesus. I thought I would post this as I wanted to show the multitude of scripture that proves that our salvation is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says and that our salvation can be lost if we choose to depart the faith (the truth of Word of God) and no longer believe and follow what Gods' Word says and return to a life of known unrepentant sin. I posted some of the scriptures in another thread but they are lost somewhere in that thread which is grown quite large now. So I am posting those scriptures and more not previously posted if anyone may want to see what the bible says about losing salvation.

QUESTIONS (answers need to be supported by scripture)

Q1. CAN WE LOSE SALVATION IF WE DEPART THE FAITH BY REJECTING GOD'S WORD AND RETURNING TO A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

Q2. IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING WHAT GOD'S WORD SAYS?

Q3. CAN WE DEPART THE FAITH FROM BEING A BELIEVER TO BECOMING AN UNBELIEVER?

Q4. WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES THE TEACH IF WE CHOOSE REJECT GOD'S WORD WHEN HE GIVES US A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH AND TO DEPART THE FAITH AND RETURN TO A LIFE ON UNBELIEF AND SIN THAT SAY WE WILL STILL RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?

Q5. IS THE DOCTRINE OF ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED BIBLICAL?

I hope this can be a friendly discussion please based on the scriptures in regards to the questions posted above and I pray that the scriptures provided here might be helpful for our edification to anyone wanting to understand what the bible teaches in regards to the questions above in regards to our salvation.

May God bless us all as we seek Him through His Word.

The OP here bases loss of salvation on one's lifestyle. Not Scripture. There are no verses that warn that lifestyle can result in loss of salvation.

But, really, the bottom line regarding whether salvation can be lost is simply to consider what the Lord Jesus Christ said Himself.

In John 5:24, Jesus said those who believe possess eternal life. Then, in John 10:28, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

It could not be any more clear. Once given the free gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. From Jesus' lips.

Therefore, any argument about losing salvation goes directly against what Jesus said.

Jesus died for sins "once for all" per Hebrews 7-10. That means all sins. So lifestyle cannot be an issue.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

The OP here bases loss of salvation on one's lifestyle. Not Scripture. There are no verses that warn that lifestyle can result in loss of salvation.

Hebrews 10:26-27
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The OP here bases loss of salvation on one's lifestyle. Not Scripture. There are no verses that warn that lifestyle can result in loss of salvation.

But, really, the bottom line regarding whether salvation can be lost is simply to consider what the Lord Jesus Christ said Himself.

In John 5:24, Jesus said those who believe possess eternal life. Then, in John 10:28, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

It could not be any more clear. Once given the free gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. From Jesus' lips.

Therefore, any argument about losing salvation goes directly against what Jesus said.

Jesus died for sins "once for all" per Hebrews 7-10. That means all sins. So lifestyle cannot be an issue.

Your response here shows you did not read the OP answers that were provided on page 1 but not written directly in the OP that show from the scriptures alone that salvation can be lost if we choose to depart the faith and no longer believe and follow what Gods' Word says. Please see post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5 linked. Our salvation is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says as shown from the scriptures in post # 7 linked because whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23.

Take Care.