WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

BNR32FAN · Jan 14, 2022

Irkle Berserkle said:
I believe it's misleading to talk of salvation being "lost." More accurately, salvation isn't achieved unless one continues in the faith until the end of one's earthly journey. It isn't something you "used to have" but then "lost."

It could be something you would’ve received but didn’t. In this example the person still lost the hope of salvation that he would’ve received if he had stayed on the narrow path. But I still get what your saying. Personally I believe we receive the hope of salvation in this world since it is a covenant we must meet the requirements of the covenant in order to receive the promise of salvation.

Irkle Berserkle · Jan 14, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you know that this is in direct contradiction to what Jesus said in plain words?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

iow, "those believing HAVE (possess) eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

iow, recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

1 Peter 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Please explain how one born of IMPERISHABLE SEED can perish.

Sorry, dear, you're not going to suck me into the bottomless quagmire of OSAS vs. non-OSAS. I came to Christ 52 years ago through a OSAS ministry. Been there, done that. I don't believe OSAS is the biblical position. If you do, may God bless you.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 14, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
That is what the bible says not me in Hebrews 6:4-8

By this you mean this is YOUR OPINION about the passages. Yet you call my direct quotes from Jesus an "interpretation".

You are certainly not consistent in your application of principles. It seems you think you can get away with sharing your opinions about passages but you have claimed to disagree with my quoting directly from Jesus.

and Hebrews 10:26-31. If we depart the faith in order to continue in known unrepentant sin and unbelief we will be lost. It is true we need to continue in the faith until the end. If we do not we are warned we can lose our salvation.

I highlighted the last sentence, which is an OPINION of yours.

If that is true, then Jesus could NOT possible be correct, nor Peter in 1 Pet 1:23.

you STILL have lots of explaining to do.

Your "interpretation" or opinions about certain verses DIRECTLY CONTRADICT what Jesus said and Peter said.

Yet, you have not even tried to explain what either one was teaching.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 14, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
By this you mean this is YOUR OPINION about the passages. Yet you call my direct quotes from Jesus an "interpretation".

You are certainly not consistent in your application of principles. It seems you think you can get away with sharing your opinions about passages but you have claimed to disagree with my quoting directly from Jesus.

I highlighted the last sentence, which is an OPINION of yours.

If that is true, then Jesus could NOT possible be correct, nor Peter in 1 Pet 1:23.

you STILL have lots of explaining to do.

Your "interpretation" or opinions about certain verses DIRECTLY CONTRADICT what Jesus said and Peter said.

Yet, you have not even tried to explain what either one was teaching.

No I mean God's Word disagrees with your opinion as shown from the scriptures (Gods' Word) in posts # 421; post # 422; post # 423 linked. The context of every scripture you have provided are to those who are believing not unbelieving. We are warned in the scriptures not to depart the faith to become unbelieving in *Hebrews 10:26-31 or we can lose our salvation. The seed is "the word of God" (Luke 8:11) that we receive through faith. Someone who departs the faith is no longer "believing but is unbelieving" and not in the faith. It is you that needs to do the splaining. Your a little behind (see the linked posts).

Irkle Berserkle · Jan 14, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
That is what the bible says not me in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31. If we depart the faith in order to continue in known unrepentant sin and unbelief we will be lost. It is true we need to continue in the faith until the end. If we do not we are warned we can lose our salvation.

You're missing my point. Yes, we will be lost, but not because our salvation was lost. We're not saved at all unless and until we continue in the faith. We don't flip-flop from unsaved to saved to unsaved again.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 14, 2022

Irkle Berserkle said:
You're missing my point. Yes, we will be lost, but not because our salvation was lost. We're not saved at all unless and until we continue in the faith. We don't flip-flop from unsaved to saved to unsaved again.

We are making the same point.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 14, 2022

Irkle Berserkle said:
I don't believe OSAS is the biblical position. If you do, may God bless you.

How nice. Jesus said "those believing HAVE eternal life" in John 5:24 and that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. And you don't agree with eternal security.

Pretty bold, don'tcha think?

Oh, and Peter wrote 1 Peter 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Can you explain how one born again with IMPERISHABLE SEED can perish?

That should be interesting.

I imagine that most Arminian types got saved by a biblical ministry, and then got deceived or just when into the weeds for various reasons.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 14, 2022

Irkle Berserkle said:
You're missing my point. Yes, we will be lost, but not because our salvation was lost. We're not saved at all unless and until we continue in the faith.

I'm sure you have a verse or two that says this, right?

We don't flip-flop from unsaved to saved to unsaved again.

Well, you are correct here.

Irkle Berserkle · Jan 14, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
We are making the same point.

Yes, my point was that we are making the same point. One can say that the acceptance of Christ "creates the hope" of salvation or "opens the door" to salvation, but not that it completes a salvation that can later be lost.

One very wise Christian site simply banned any and all further discussion of OSAS vs. non-OSAS. It's never edifying and never really goes anywhere. I was just making my little point about "lost" and will now depart before the OSAS furies descend upon me.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 14, 2022

Irkle Berserkle said:
Yes, my point was that we are making the same point. One can say that the acceptance of Christ "creates the hope" of salvation or "opens the door" to salvation, but not that it completes a salvation that can later be lost.

One very wise Christian site simply banned any and all further discussion of OSAS vs. non-OSAS. It's never edifying and never really goes anywhere. I was just making my little point about "lost" and will now depart before the OSAS furies descend upon me.

Absolutely! Speaking of hope. These scriptures make that point clear.

WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE AS WE BELIEVE

TITUS 1:1-2 [1], Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of THE TRUTH WHICH IS AFTER GODLINESS; [2], IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began

TITUS 3:7 [7], That being justified by his grace, WE SHOULD BE MADE HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE.

COLOSSIANS 1:23 [23], IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH grounded and settled, AND BE NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

1 JOHN 3:3 [3], And every man that has this HOPE IN HIM purifies himself, even as he is pure.

1 PETER 3:15 [15], But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of THE HOPE THAT IS IN YOU with meekness and fear

1 PETER 1:21 [21], Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; THAT YOUR FAITH AND HOPE MIGHT BE IN GOD.

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST THE CONFIDENCE AND THE REJOICING OF THE HOPE FIRM TO THE END.

HEBREWS 6:11 [11], And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of HOPE TO THE END

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE WE MUST ENDURE TEMPTATION AND BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD TO THE END...

MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23 [12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: [13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: [14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins..... [23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

HEBREWS 3:12-14 [12], Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

ROMANS 6:22 [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.

....................

God bless

Christian7777777 · Jan 15, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Christ is the end of the law because that is where the law leads us when we have a knowledge of what sin is (see Galatians 3:22-25; Romans 7:7). No one is telling you to go and seek your own righteousness from law keeping (see post # 425 linked). So what point are you making? You did not make one and if we are both in agreement that we cannot get our righteousness from law keeping, what is your argument? You have none because we are both in agreement. All the law does in the new covenant is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it.

Happy Sabbath.

Sin is not law breaking, but sin is the transgression of the law, which men do, who have law, as they are the lawless and disobedient.

Therefore the correct and full meaning of what sin is, is it is to not have faith ( the law is not of faith)

To have faith is to believe in Christ rising from the dead, otherwise it is sin to not believe ( which is not the law of they break, but a law of faith that is not kept.

It is not the law contained in ordinances, that is broken, that is sin, as that is the law of sin and death ( which all are freed from as told)

But it is the law of faith we are now under, that is broken, by not believing in Christ rising, and doubting that is to be damned, and is them yet in their sins. ( the sins are to be forgiven and a new heart given to know Christ the risen Lord)

That is why to be born again is to sin not, as they believe that Christ is risen ( it is faith that is not sin)

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Christian7777777 · Jan 15, 2022

klutedavid said:
You are having trouble with understanding your own comment.

You said this, 'All the law does in the new covenant is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it.'

Yet again LGW, do you need to break a law before you can know it is a sin?

You definitely stated that the knowledge of sin is based on breaking the law.

That is not what the scripture says LGW.

You need to retract your comment.

That is right David, sin is not acknowledged to us when we break Gods law, it was just the demonstration of all the world being guilty before God, by the law, which resulted in all not keeping it, but breaking it.

Now we are not saved by the wisdom of ( foolish) men, we are saved by the foolishness ( to these wise men of this world) preaching of the cross.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Those under the law ( Israel) became guilty before God.

We see then all the deeds of the law ( Israel did) lacked any justification ( without glory).

Now all is testified to be without the law.

It is righteousness by faith of Jesus Christ, as all ( in the law) sinned and came short of the glory of God. ( Christ rising from the dead is the glory of God to be believed in for that glory of God on us too for justification)

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Christian7777777 · Jan 15, 2022

Sin to Israel was and is, the transgression of the law ( that is to be in ignorance of the law of faith)

The law of faith is to not be born again, as being born again is believing that Christ was begotten from the dead.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Christian7777777 · Jan 15, 2022

What a position men of Israel, Messianists, SDA take, that sin is the transgression of the law, yet they openly share how they transgress that law, and that, that is their idea of faith. ( sin is the transgression of the law they are yet under)

It was not faith for Israel, nor is it for anyone else now, just the same.

Because as told, sin is what is done when they are yet in their sins, for not believing in Christ, which is believing in His telling of the necessity of Him going away, so the comforter can come to them, so they do not die in the earth in sins, but rise with Christ ( in their heart now) to life ( to Heaven in Christ Jesus)

These people spend years n the forums of this world to try to prove something that God proved, was unfaithful in Israel, now they want to say it became faith, to try to keep law, fail, sin and that is their way of salvation.

No wisdom, only the predicted foolishness and wisdom turned backwards, why then does anyone think it is wise of them to discuss with them , when they cant show one thing to make sense and must avoid the testimony told and answered to them ?

LoveGodsWord · Jan 15, 2022

Christian7777777 said:
What a position men of Israel, Messianists, SDA take, that sin is the transgression of the law, yet they openly share how they transgress that law, and that, that is their idea of faith. ( sin is the transgression of the law they are yet under)

It was not faith for Israel, nor is it for anyone else now, just the same.

Because as told, sin is what is done when they are yet in their sins, for not believing in Christ, which is believing in His telling of the necessity of Him going away, so the comforter can come to them, so they do not die in the earth in sins, but rise with Christ ( in their heart now) to life ( to Heaven in Christ Jesus)

These people spend years n the forums of this world to try to prove something that God proved, was unfaithful in Israel, now they want to say it became faith, to try to keep law, fail, sin and that is their way of salvation.

No wisdom, only the predicted foolishness and wisdom turned backwards, why then does anyone think it is wise of them to discuss with them , when they cant show one thing to make sense and must avoid the testimony told and answered to them ?

Then we have Gods' Word that says; 1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. I prefer what God Word says.

Danthemailman · Jan 15, 2022

Christian7777777 said:
What a position men of Israel, Messianists, SDA take, that sin is the transgression of the law, yet they openly share how they transgress that law, and that, that is their idea of faith. ( sin is the transgression of the law they are yet under)

It was not faith for Israel, nor is it for anyone else now, just the same.

Because as told, sin is what is done when they are yet in their sins, for not believing in Christ, which is believing in His telling of the necessity of Him going away, so the comforter can come to them, so they do not die in the earth in sins, but rise with Christ ( in their heart now) to life ( to Heaven in Christ Jesus)

These people spend years n the forums of this world to try to prove something that God proved, was unfaithful in Israel, now they want to say it became faith, to try to keep law, fail, sin and that is their way of salvation.

No wisdom, only the predicted foolishness and wisdom turned backwards, why then does anyone think it is wise of them to discuss with them , when they cant show one thing to make sense and must avoid the testimony told and answered to them ?

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 15, 2022

Christian7777777 said:
Sin is not law breaking, but sin is the transgression of the law, which men do, who have law, as they are the lawless and disobedient.

Breaking the law is the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11) which is sin. So is not believing and following what Gods' Word says (Romans 14:23).

LoveGodsWord · Jan 15, 2022

Danthemailman said:
1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

And a part of that message is 1 John 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.[4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. No one can pretend that they know God while breaking His commandments according to the scriptures *1 John 3:6.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 15, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Absolutely! Speaking of hope. These scriptures make that point clear.
WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE AS WE BELIEVE

Can you point out WHERE in John 5:24 Jesus mentioning anything about hoping for eternal life in the future? No, you can't. So your statement is antibfiblical.

Jesus was clear; those believing HAVE (possesses right NOW!) eternal life. It is a present possession, as the present tense makes clear.

TITUS 1:1-2 [1], Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of THE TRUTH WHICH IS AFTER GODLINESS; [2], IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began

TITUS 3:7 [7], That being justified by his grace, WE SHOULD BE MADE HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE.

COLOSSIANS 1:23 [23], IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH grounded and settled, AND BE NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

When eternal life is mentioned as a future promise, it is ALWAYS referring to eternity itself.

But the free gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) is a PRESENT REALITY.

IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE WE MUST ENDURE TEMPTATION AND BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD TO THE END...

How sad. The Bible is very clear about how to receive eternal life. John 5:24 is just one of many verses that directly link believing or faith in Christ as the sole condition.

What you are doing is adding to God's Word. Including one's own works corrupts the gospel of grace.

btw, the Greek word translated "hope" means "a confident expectation", which is nothing like how it is used today, which is more of a wishful thinking than a solid FAITH.

BibleBeliever1611 · Jan 15, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
It's only clear to you because of your pre-conceived biases.

I get that interpretation when I just read it without any pre-conceived ideas at all. You would have to do mental gymnastics to end up with a different interpretation. When it says "if they shall fall away..." the context reveals what they fall away from. It's really simple. Also it perfectly fits to the context of the beginning of the passage where it says not to lay the foundation of repentance from dead works again. Which means the foundation of salvation. The verse 4 starts with the word "for" which means "because." Why don't we lay the foundation again? Because... [verse 4]

FreeGrace2 said:
v.4 and 5 describe the state of BELIEVERS. Impossible to use these descriptions for unbelievers.

Well, Hebrews 6 proves that you indeed can use those descriptions for unbelievers. That's what it's clearly saying if you just read it with an open mind.

WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

He’s a Way of life

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