Why reject OSAS ? Because the Bible does not support it.? or..?

[jerry kelso]

Like I said you don't understand How or Why.



You'll have to explain that one to me.

jiminz,

1. You are making an accusation without explaining how or why I am wrong.

2. If you don’t understand context of a passage you don’t understand rightly dividing the word.
If you read Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 when he said I die daily and that is the only verse you read you won’t know what he meant.
One could guess and most likely would get it wrong and would be pretty lucky if he got it right.
There are plain statements that can be understood at plainly reading them and others you may have to read a whole chapter or even more to really understand what is really being said.
Are you familiar with this passage or not? And what do you think he meant?
If you have never read it can you tell me what it means by just reading verse 31? I protest by your rejoicing I die daily? Let me know. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

It was a Rhetorical question, do you really think he was asking a question which he wanted an answer to?

Paul understood who his audience was and he knew what they knew.





If that is what you have found, then don't you understand those people would fall into the category of a Tare?

There are any number of people running around using the title Christian, that do not in any way, shape or form demonstrate the Fruit of the Spirit.

If they are making statements like the one you describe, I seriously doubt they ever were Born Again, not matter what the might call themselves.

It's always those kinds of people who meet people like you, who take to heart what they say, believing everyone who would believe such a thing are all the same, that is how Satan works, both to discredit God, His Believers, and the Beliefs of Christians in general.

jiminz,

1. I am not disagreeing with being a somewhat rhetorical question.

2. However his audience was a place that had Jews and gentiles who were in majority and they were told in Romans 11 not to be too proud.
Some churches were said to be exclusively Jewish and Gentile both.

3. The church at Rome had no known apostolic foundation and that is why Paul needed to preach the gospel to them Romans 1:13.
Yes it is an exhortation about the history of sin and Justification by grace and how each age would be judged and the difference of law keeping under the Old Covenants and living as a new creation under the New Covenant.
His overall theme was to unite the Jews and Gentiles in one body for we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Paul’s rhetorical question would come from him knowing of what would affect those with a history of law keepers which can be seen through out the New Testament and including carnal Christians to the extreme as in Romans 8.

4. A superficial reading of Romans 6:1 is rhetorical but under the full context across the board is more than meets the eye.

5. There are people who are tares and some mean well and are merely ignorant. You cannot stereotype every single Jew and Gentile in this book. There are professors that are willingly such as the Jewish leaders in Jesus days.
Some law keepers know they are under grace but know they can sin and some believe they can’t help but sin. God knows the heart and knows who are not understanding being ignorant and who are really professing to be saved.

6. I don’t believe in discrediting God Those who believe that God saves some and damning others are discrediting God’s sovereignty and his holiness to judge man righteously
Satan is out there to steal, kill, and destroy our lives completely and take the to hell with him. If you don’t believe this you don’t understand about his purpose about his great confrontation between him and God.

7. Discredit wrong doctrines not well meaning Christians.
The truth is what will convict not the messenger. I don’t believe in legalism.
There is a thin line between legalism and holiness because of spiritual truths. At the same time the mechanics of the covenant they are at opposite polars.

8. Beliefs of Christians I have a feeling points back to denominationalism which is not scriptural for there is only one body of Christ. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Well then, you have a different point of view.

albion,

1. We have the same view about characteristic when it comes to hearing his voice and following him. That is a characteristic of a child of God serving God.

2. The condition of not being plucked out of God’s hand they shall not perish is hearing God’s voice and following him.
You may think this is changing the unconditional out of the statement not being plucking out and never perishing. This is not the case.
Israel has an unconditional covenant concerning the land and the Kingdom of the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants concerning the land and the Kingdom of Heaven reign on earth.
This involves this passage.
However, the children of Israel were backslidden and had to be saved.
So the covenant is unconditional but is conditioned on Israel being saved. That generation hasn’t come yet as we can see today but it will in the future when all Israel will be saved for their gifts and callings are without repentance. Jerry Kelso

 

[JIMINZ]

If free will is not supported by the scriptures why is it that we have a choice whether or not to repent and believe?

Mainly because, you don't.

It's by Grace you are saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Mainly because, you don't.

It's by Grace you are saved.

Grace is a free and unmerited gift from God. A gift can be rejected and grace is the most rejected gift of all.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Mainly because, you don't.

It's by Grace you are saved.

“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice it doesn’t say because God has not chosen him to believe. If we are judged according to whether or not we believe them we must be capable of believing otherwise the judgement would be unjust.

 

[JIMINZ]

“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice it doesn’t say because God has not chosen him to believe. If we are judged according to whether or not we believe them we must be capable of believing otherwise the judgement would be unjust.

Your arguing against scripture, not me, maybe you should begin reading all over again this time understanding what you read.

Did you know that Sin in your Flesh has been Destroyed?
How do you sin?
Did you know your Dead to the Flesh?
How do you sin?
Did you know your Dead to the Law?
How do you sin?
Did you know your Dead to Sin?
How do you sin?

 

[JIMINZ]

Grace is a free and unmerited gift from God. A gift can be rejected and grace is the most rejected gift of all.

Is that done by your precious Free Will?

A gift as you would view it from another person such as your self, could be rejected, but even then it is a rare occurrence, anyway Gods' Grace (Gift) isn't the same as your Temporal gift would be.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your arguing against scripture, not me, maybe you should begin reading all over again this time understanding what you read.

Did you know that Sin in your Flesh has been Destroyed?
How do you sin?
Did you know your Dead to the Flesh?
How do you sin?
Did you know your Dead to the Law?
How do you sin?
Did you know your Dead to Sin?
How do you sin?

I know you and I both still sin. Anyway you never even addressed my point that we are judged according to whether or not we believe.

 

[JIMINZ]

I know you and I both still sin.

Both of you still sin? Boy your in trouble.

Like I said, you don't know How or Why, you just proved me correct.

If you don't believe me look up what I said, it's clear enough to find.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is that done by your precious Free Will?

A gift as you would view it from another person such as your self, could be rejected, but even then it is a rare occurrence, anyway Gods' Grace (Gift) isn't the same as your Temporal gift would be.

Never the less is still remains the most rejected gift of all time.

 

[JIMINZ]

Never the less is still remains the most rejected gift of all time.

That might just be wishful thinking on your part.

Sorry, but it isn't.

 

[BobRyan]

It has always surprised me how much energy we are willing to put into a debate that really won't affect any of us.

One persons says "pay attention to all the warning signs on the highway - they can be the difference between life and death".

Another person says "those signs are just overstatement to encourage higher quality driving ... there is no real risk".

A third person says "why all this debate over a topic that really does not affect anyone?"

I find that very fascinating.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 11 - salvation revoked "you stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's goodness IF you continue.. otherwise you will be cut off"

1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" Indeed disqualified from it in that case

Matt 13 - seed on ground that "comes to LIFE" and springs up .. but then dies

John 15 "branches IN ME" that are "cut off" and tossed into the fire

Gal 5 "severed from Christ... fallen from grace".. you can't be severed from something you never were joined to.

Is belief a work? Not in the sense in which Ephesians 2:8-9 or Titus 3:5 speak of works. Did the thief on the cross next to Christ work to be saved?

By their fruits you shall know them. The claim is not "Saved by works" the claim is that having been saved by grace one can choose so as to lose salvation. You are talking about how to get saved - but OSAS is about the idea of staying saved and how that happens.

Hence all the warning in that quote above about losing salvation, forgiveness revoked..etc

Paul said - Romans 11 - salvation revoked "you stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's goodness IF you continue.. otherwise you will be cut off"

This is what Paul wrote concerning the branches grafted into the olive tree. It would require faith in order for the wild branches, the Gentiles, to be grafted in. Only so long as they trusted in Christ could they enjoy the "fatness of the olive tree." But if they ceased to believe in him, to trust in his saving work for them, they would be cut off from the "goodness of God" and the benefits of being supported by the "root" of the olive tree.

1. "Ceased to believe" is not found in Romans 11.
2. Instead "impossible to be cut off" Paul says -- indeed possible so "fear".

Rom 11
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

James 2 describes "believe and tremble" as insufficient form of belief.

Instead of "not possible to be at risk of being cut off" Paul warns of this "to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

Is such a cutting off actually possible? Paul seems to suggest not:

"...remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you." (verse 18)
"...the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (verse 29)

"seems to suggest" is a great example of "inference alone" -- when the explicit statement in the text is the opposite -- "to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

Rom 2 - it is the "goodness of God that leads you to repentance" -- to continue in His kindness is to continue in that spirit of repenting/turning from sin.

The "cutting off" spoken of in Romans 11, then, is, I think, theoretical: God could and would cut off those whom He has grafted into Himself

Like driving up hill until your car reaches the outer planets of our solar system.. is theoretical and not a practical discussion point.

We can see that you use the terms of "inference" to get to an extreme inference negating the direct statement in the text.

Which I cover extensively in the links in the first post I made to this thread.

Posting links to other threads where you do not actually address the texts listed in the OP or the main points here - is not as helpful as it might seem to be at first.

Which verses, I pointed out, do not actually threaten the loss of salvation.

I too have proven some things at some point in the past.


carefully selecting two snips.

Romans 11:20
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.

Romans 11:23
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

but not the ones listed...

Paul said - Romans 11 - salvation revoked "you stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's goodness IF you continue.. otherwise you will be cut off"

15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.