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Featured Why reject OSAS ? Because the Bible does not support it.? or..?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by BobRyan, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Most Christians who reject OSAS will say they reject it because the Bible does not support it.

    So even though the Gospel is that of being "Saved by grace through faith" it is a gospel where the saints still have free will to choose. And while it is true that one is not lost each time they sin 1 John 2:1 yet the Bible texts about someone losing salvation are very clear.

    IS that idea of the Bible not supporting OSAS something you also believe? Is that sufficient reason to reject OSAS?

    Matthew 18 -- the chapter ends with "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ. Notice in that chapter "I forgave you ALL that debt" but then what happens? Notice how Christ "applies" the lesson "SO SHALL My Father do to each of you IF..."

    Ezek 18 - Forgiveness revoked clearly taught in scripture.

    Romans 11 - salvation revoked "you stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's goodness IF you continue.. otherwise you will be cut off"

    1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" Indeed disqualified from it in that case

    Matt 13 - seed on ground that "comes to LIFE" and springs up .. but then dies


    John 15 "branches IN ME" that are "cut off" and tossed into the fire

    Gal 5 "severed from Christ... fallen from grace".. you can't be severed from something you never were joined to.

    (In my opinion OSAS is not at all reasonable unless one is first inclined to accept at least some key features of Calvinism. I don't understand how any non-Calvinist gets to the point of believing in OSAS, and since I too am not one who holds to 4 or 5 point Calvinism.. I don't have a basis for OSAS either)
    =====================

    Our Catholic friends sometimes get criticism that they do not follow "sola scriptura testing" but here is a case were a popular non-Catholic teaching does not appear to pass the "Sola Scriptura" test.

    I find that interesting. How about you?
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  2. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    Why do you talk about OSAS in General Theology? The thread will get more than 20 pages and it might be closed in the end.
    :(
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Having said that - I will grant you that there IS a "form of OSAS" that all Christians do believe and with good reason.

    We all believe that when we get to heaven - every single Christian that you meet there will be able to say this "I can start from today and go backward in time day-by-day and show perseverance and full salvation all the way to the day that I was saved" ... the point where we "differ" is here

    1. Yes and what about BEFORE that -- were you at one time saved before that - then lost - then restored again and finally persevered to the end?

    2. And we would accept that there are those who were saved - did great things via the Spirit and power of God -- then were lost... as in Matthew 7 and as we see in Hebrews 6:2-9
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Is OSAS not allowed in GT??
     
  5. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    It is, but there's been so many topics on OSAS over the years that it's not even funny. We could discuss/debate whether or not OSAS is a correct doctrine or not until the cows come home and nobody would ever be willing to listen to the numerous scriptures that actually support OSAS throughout the Bible. Personally I think it'd just be a waste of all of our time. Hence why I've never posted any OSAS threads lately despite believing and advocating in OSAS myself.
     
  6. lambofgod43985889

    lambofgod43985889 Active Member Supporter

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    i tend to believe in once saved always saved but i never get sure
     
  7. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would say I know scriptures that I can use to support "once saved, always saved"; and I would say I know scriptures which I can use to support that a person can lose his or her salvation. So, I pray for what God wants.

    One thing I think of > if I get saved but I still have my own free will to make choices on my own . . . this means my will is not with God. This would not be safe, therefore not saved if I am not safe. Plus, it would mean I have not really given myself to God, if my will is still free from Him.

    I consider how Jesus says we need to deny ourselves > Luke 9:23. My self that I deny would include my free will, wouldn't it? Why would I want to keep being independent from God so I can make my own choices in separation from Him??
     
  8. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Why reject OSAS ?
    It's lazy and not true so people ought to reject it.
     
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  9. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    I agree with @BobRyan that it does not make sense in believing in OSAS if you are not Calvinist.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    In your view did God make a mistake to give sinless beings like all angels and Adam and Eve - free will even though they lived in paradise and were sinless and in perfect harmony with God ? Should he have removed that free will so that His Son would not have to come and die for the sins of mankind? Did God make a mistake in your view?
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    The protesting Catholics in the dark ages argued for "sola scriptura testing" of doctrine to see if it should be accepted or rejected. Your response indicates you do not agree with their choice in that regard. Is that correct? sola scriptura testing would be a waste of time??

    If that is the case then not only are the OSAS threads to be avoided - but any thread that suggests that "sola scriptura testing" would be a great idea should be avoided as well. No matter what the doctrine being discussed.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    I can see how that might be given the texts in the OP
     
  13. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    Denominations have every right to disagree with Protestant theology just as much as we have a right to disagree with Catholic theology ...etc. The church has been divided so much that it's hard to tell what is the truth anymore and what isn't. Even Protestants do not 100% agree with each other on everything it's just ridiculous. You know what's weird? Is despite all of the divisions we each think that we're right.

    Obviously I believe in Sola Scriptura being a Protestant. So we should have the right to test it and to see whether or not it's a solid doctrine.

    Sorry for saying it was a waste of our time. That was wrong of me. Anyway, It's late. I'll give some verses tomorrow.
     
  14. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    The easiest way for me to rebut your statement is to say.

    The belief a Christian has Free Will does not have the Bible to support it either.

    I cannot call either one a Doctrine, they are Beliefs.

    2 Tim. 3:16
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    So then to begin with, if neither of these beliefs cannot be supported by the Bible (Sola Scriptura) then neither one of them can be a Doctrine, no matter how many people my believe in it, if it is not in the Bible it cannot be supported by it.
     
  15. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    1) Are you able to support that statement (Free will) with Scripture?

    2) If your using a Believer as your example, how does a Believer sin, when he is Dead to sin?

    Rom 6:2
    God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Rom. 6:11
    Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    God sovereignly acts - then man rejects God... John 1:11 "HE came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"

    Matt 23 "O Jerusalem ... HOW I WANTED... but you would not"
    2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish"

    God sovereignly chooses to wait for man to respond "I STAND at the door and knock IF ANYONE hears My void AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3.

    "Whosoever will " Acts 2:21 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE could I have done that I have not already done?"k

    1 John 2:2 Jesus is the "atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

    1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the savior OF THE WORLD"

    Rom 10: 1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. ... 9 if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    2 Cor 5 "we BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God"

    1 John 12:32 I will "draw ALL mankind unto Me"

    Matt 11 "Come unto ME ALL who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest"
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    1 Cor 6
    7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God

    Not a question you will ever find in the Bible rather Romans 6 "demands a choice" to obey rather then simply making a "sky is up" statement.
     
  18. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But in their created free wills, they were limited. They were not fully like Jesus who is incapable of sinning. Jesus has free will and He is unable to sin, because of His nature. So, our Creator's freedom of will is better than what we humans have been created with.

    Yes, Adam and Eve were sinless, in a way. But they were not harmonious with God the way Jesus God's own Son is harmonious. They were not free from the possibility of sinning, like Jesus is in His will's freedom. Adam and Eve were of a creature nature, not our Creator's nature which is incapable of evil > James 1:13&17. So, God's freedom of His will is better than how we humans are free in our wills. So, it is better to become one with God, so we share with Him in His freedom, so free that He is incapable of evil.

    "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

    So, if my free will is not joined to Jesus, I am limited and missing out on being "free indeed" (John 8:36) how we can be in sharing with Jesus and how His will is free. If we are joined to Jesus, we can leave behind our human capability and our human will's capability, in order to be one with Jesus and free in sharing with Jesus who is God's own Son. And God is the One taking care of our wills >

    "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

    "Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)

    "'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

    If we are living in Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls", this effects how free we are to choose what is good. Humans in sin have free wills in sin, so their choice making is limited. Adam and Eve lost the freedom they had, and their bondage has been passed on to humans who have been born in sin. Their fallen nature effects what their fallen wills can choose to do.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Recon means to "consider it as" not "you are physically dead" which is why in Romans 6 Paul "argues for" obedience rather than "assuming it".

    Rom 6
    12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

    15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
     
  20. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But does this mean for us to accomplish this, on our own???? Do we accomplish this, or does God's word?

    Isaiah 55:11 says > God's word "shall accomplish" what God pleases.

    I think of how Jesus spoke His words, and then the sea became still. Like this, God's word is spoken and God brings to pass what He means by His word >

    "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

    All God means by His word is all which He Himself has His word do in us and our lives. This is part of why Jesus says we need to deny ourselves > Luke 9:23 > I personally understand that my self includes my own free will. As long as I keep control, I can not do all which God's word means.

    So, no God did not make a mistake by giving us our free wills, but we will be making a very great mistake, if we hold on to our own ability to control our own wills.
     
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