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Why preach the gospel?

Anto9us

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Rev 14:11
“And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

That is where the phrase comes from in my above post
 
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mkgal1

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First of all Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else. (Read Luke 16 for example)

Not so. What Jesus spoke of almost each time that "hell" is the translated word in our modern Bibles was "Gehenna" a literal valley outside of Jerusalem.


Quoting Benjamin Corey:Growing up I was often told that “Jesus talked more about hell than he did heaven”, but I don’t once remember being encouraged to actually research from a historical and grammatical perspective what Jesus was actually talking about when he used the word “hell”. (In their defense, I don’t think I ever had a religious leader with advanced theological training, so they probably didn’t realize that someone might want to “look this up” either).

The first discovery one will make on such an investigation, is the inconvenient truth that the word “hell” didn’t exist in first century Israel. This brings up one crucial problem when translating/interpreting the Bible apart from any scholastic work: we see English words that have specific linguistic and cultural connotations and meanings, and read those meanings into an ancient text which may, or may not, have intended to send the same meaning.

The word “hell” becomes a prime example: the word we use today, doesn’t actually appear in language until approximately AD 725– long after the first century. In addition, the word doesn’t come from Hebrew at all, but rather is ultimately rooted in Proto-Germanic. According to the The Barnhart Concise Dictionary of Etymology, the word “hell” was adopted into our vocabulary as a way to introduce the pagan concept of hell into Christian theology– which it did quite successfully.

Therefore, we know right off the bat that when we read scripture in English, we’re not actually reading what was originally said and risk reading into the text instead of getting back to the original historical and grammatical meaning of the text. We do this in many areas, which is why competency in Biblical languages or at least Koine Greek, is a mandatory requirement at legitimate institutions of higher theological learning– and why one would do well to hold theology in humility until they are well versed in the grammatical and historical realities of any given ancient text.

It is true however, that we do see– and not infrequently– Jesus refer to “hell”. So what was he talking about?

It’s easy to dismiss something in scripture as just being “metaphorical” without having an intelligent reason to back that up, so we’ve got to go deeper. In this case, we find that Jesus was actually referring to a literal place– and not a literal place of the future, but a literal place of first century Israel. “Hell” was a place that the people of Jesus’ time could actually go and see (image below). So, what was it? Here you go:

The word Jesus uses in Greek is γέεννα (Gehenna), which actually means “The Valley of the Son of Hinnom”. An over simplified description of Gehenna would be that it was the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem; this was the place where both garbage and dead bodies would be discarded and consumed by a fire that was likely always burning. The location goes all the way back to the book of Joshua, and was a place where bad things happened– child sacrifice, bodies were cremated, etc. Basically, imagine a dump where garbage is burned– add into that the vision of burning bodies and a historical connotation of child sacrifice, and you’ll see that it wasn’t a very desirable place. However, it was a very literal place and the original audience of Jesus would have understood it as such. They would not have heard the word “Gahenna” and thought of our concept of hell– they would have realized Jesus was talking about an actual place outside the city. ~ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/what-jesus-talked-about-when-he-talked-about-hell/ END

As far as Luke 16 goes? I think one should go back to chapter 11, where this whole conversation is given more context. Jesus was addressing the Pharisee's hypocrisy of how they were [mis]treating the poor. Jesus takes the opportunity to tell two parables about what true hospitality looks like.5


Meaning of Hades (ᾅδης)
There are differences in the way the word ᾅδης has been translated (“in ᾅδης, where he was in torment” 16:23). Most of the major English translations chose to use the Greek transliteration Hades (e.g., NIV, NASB, ESV, NRSV), whereas the KJV is infamously known for its usage of Hell, and yet a couple opted for the phrase “the place of the dead” (e.g., NLT, CEB). Hades (ᾅδης) is used a total of ten times in the New Testament (NT), and it is always referring to the place of the dead.29 If Jesus were to use this parable to describe what happens to the wicked in Hell (i.e., in the Final Judgment), he would likely have used the word Gehenna (γέεννα) instead.30 In addition, since the five brothers are still alive while the rich man is in torment, it is unlikely that the final resurrection or judgment has taken place. Theologically, in this regard, “the possibility of a coherent eschatology in the parable is dropped altogether.31
 
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Danielwright2311

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I preach the Gospel as I am convicted to preach the truth by the spirit of God when I am in that position.

So its not really me doing it at the time usually.
 
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Anto9us

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hades and gehenna are BOTH New Testament words for hell.

Hades in Greek is actually the word for SEE or SEEN with the negating alpha in front of it -- the unseen realm is what hades most literally means.

a dein -- dein for see or seen with the preceding alpha -- not seen, unseen

like
a pocalypse means not veiled, uncovered, a in front of kaluptitai, not hidden, revelation, unveiling
 
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Anto9us

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Luk 16:23

“And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The word HADES is where the bad rich man is in the parable - he is on the Torments side of it; the good beggar Lazarus is in HADES also, but on the Paradise side, or "Abraham's Bosom" -- these two "sides" of HADES are divided and no one can cross between them

Both good and bad people went to HADES - the unseen world - both in Jesus' parable and in Greek mythology
 
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Anto9us

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The Old Testament word for hell is SHEOL (the grave) hole in the ground

The Luke 16 parable contrasts the place of Torments in hades from the paradise of hades (Abraham's Bosom)
 
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Anto9us

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Jesus descended to hades and preached to the spirits in prison.

Most people, or many people, believe Jesus brought the righteous dead with Him as He ascended to Heaven (this is called 'the harrowing of hell')

The Bible says that many came out of their graves and appeared to many witnesses -- the bad guys in hades were preached to but LEFT THERE - a first century LEFT BEHIND
 
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Anto9us

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1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



Eph 4:9
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
 
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Anto9us

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tartarus, gehenna and hades are all Greek New Testament words for hell;
Sheol is only OT word

so there are 4 words you can use about someone you don't like --
to refer to their ultimate destination in theological terms
without actually saying the word HELL
 
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Anto9us

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Is there ANY New Testament phrases that DO connote PERPETUITY?
Yes, of God's kingdom.

Luk 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

The italicized phrase is our familiar eis aion - the phrase that nails down UNENDINGNESS or PERPETUITY is esomai ou telos (there shall be no end)

If we can find this same kind of language UNEQUIVOCABLY DESCRIBING HELL -- then a hole has been punched in Universalism

If hell is only described in "aionian" terms, we cannot say for sure that PERPETUITY is associated with hell
 
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Anto9us

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Here's a sticky wicket:

Mat 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

αἰώνιος is used in the Greek for both everlasting and eternal
 
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Anto9us

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αἰώνιος is used in Philemon

Phm 1:15
For perhaps he departed for a while for this purpose, that you might receive him forever,

Paul is writing to Philemon about getting Onesimus RETURNED - the same aionian language is used, and surely we can't picture that Philemon will now have Onesimus PERPETUALLY
 
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dqhall

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(ECT = refers to someone who opines that the bible teaches Eternal Conscious Torments)

In 5 point ECT Calvinism what is the urgency to preach the gospel? If all of the elect will be saved no matter what & all of the nonelect will be lost no matter what, then there is no urgency to preach the gospel.

In ECT Arminianism what is the urgency to preach the gospel? Will Love Omnipotent damn to ECT anyone who never heard?

Do you think those who never heard the Gospel will go to this "Hell" you speak of? If so, for how long? Will those who never heard be better off than those who heard & rejected the Gospel?

Does much evangelizing cause more harm than good? Yes. How many millions reject the Gospel because it is associated with a being who tortures billions forever or annihilates them into endless nonexistence? Hundreds of millions?

Are those who profess Christ only out of fear & for fire insurance really saved?

What are the statistics on those who profess Christ & later renounce Christianity?

As to evangelizing, IMO that's a good idea if you are led to do so or are called to be an evangelist. Are all evangelists? No.

So why evangelize? Because Christ commanded it. Which is the same answer a Calvinist gave me.

In Catholicism & Eastern Orthodoxy is there an urgency to preach the Gospel or send missionaries to the jungles of Africa? Or is it more a case of evangelizing the world without preaching & by one's life?

Universalist Jason Pratt shares the Gospel message:


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
I thought the Gospel was from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. This 5 point ECT Arminianism was not what Jesus was saying in his 'Sermon on the Mount.'

If you learn and do the commandments Christ taught, you might get a reward from heaven. That is why people preach the Gospel. Paul hoped for the resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15).
 
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bcbsr

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There are those who make similar arguments, e.g. Calvin, for the eternal damnation to endless torments of infants.

If it's all of grace, then all of the elect will be saved no matter what & all of the nonelect will be lost no matter what, then there is no urgency to preach the gospel.

God is obligated by His nature, which is love, & by the death of Christ for the sins of the world, & His justice which is in opposition to being one who tortures anyone forever against their will for finite momentary sins.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
First, I disagree with Calvinism on a number of points. If you mean by "infant" you mean to say those who hadn't had an opportunity to sin, rest assured that if there are those who didn't sin, they don't need to be saved as there is no reason for God sending them to hell. This in contrast to Calvinism whereby one is reckoned guilty of the sin of one's ancestor, namely Adam, merely by association, not having commit the crime themselves. Many have pointed out the injustice that implies, But Calvinists don't listen.

Secondly I don't agree with Calvinism concerning election. They hold that people are born elect or non-elect. Which is the same to me as saying they are born saved or eternally condemned. Essentially, contrary to what they may claim, they don't believe salvation by faith, but rather salvation by an election that occurs prior to birth. Faith to them is more about reveal who is elect and will inevitably, in their fatalistic view, will come to faith. I disagree.

So on those two points I have similar objections as you do.

However on the third point - the eternal nature of hell - I covered that in my previous post.
 
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bcbsr

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Not so. What Jesus spoke of almost each time that "hell" is the translated word in our modern Bibles was "Gehenna" a literal valley outside of Jerusalem.


Quoting Benjamin Corey:Growing up I was often told that “Jesus talked more about hell than he did heaven”, but I don’t once remember being encouraged to actually research from a historical and grammatical perspective what Jesus was actually talking about when he used the word “hell”. (In their defense, I don’t think I ever had a religious leader with advanced theological training, so they probably didn’t realize that someone might want to “look this up” either).

The first discovery one will make on such an investigation, is the inconvenient truth that the word “hell” didn’t exist in first century Israel. This brings up one crucial problem when translating/interpreting the Bible apart from any scholastic work: we see English words that have specific linguistic and cultural connotations and meanings, and read those meanings into an ancient text which may, or may not, have intended to send the same meaning.

The word “hell” becomes a prime example: the word we use today, doesn’t actually appear in language until approximately AD 725– long after the first century. In addition, the word doesn’t come from Hebrew at all, but rather is ultimately rooted in Proto-Germanic. According to the The Barnhart Concise Dictionary of Etymology, the word “hell” was adopted into our vocabulary as a way to introduce the pagan concept of hell into Christian theology– which it did quite successfully.

Therefore, we know right off the bat that when we read scripture in English, we’re not actually reading what was originally said and risk reading into the text instead of getting back to the original historical and grammatical meaning of the text. We do this in many areas, which is why competency in Biblical languages or at least Koine Greek, is a mandatory requirement at legitimate institutions of higher theological learning– and why one would do well to hold theology in humility until they are well versed in the grammatical and historical realities of any given ancient text.

It is true however, that we do see– and not infrequently– Jesus refer to “hell”. So what was he talking about?

It’s easy to dismiss something in scripture as just being “metaphorical” without having an intelligent reason to back that up, so we’ve got to go deeper. In this case, we find that Jesus was actually referring to a literal place– and not a literal place of the future, but a literal place of first century Israel. “Hell” was a place that the people of Jesus’ time could actually go and see (image below). So, what was it? Here you go:

The word Jesus uses in Greek is γέεννα (Gehenna), which actually means “The Valley of the Son of Hinnom”. An over simplified description of Gehenna would be that it was the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem; this was the place where both garbage and dead bodies would be discarded and consumed by a fire that was likely always burning. The location goes all the way back to the book of Joshua, and was a place where bad things happened– child sacrifice, bodies were cremated, etc. Basically, imagine a dump where garbage is burned– add into that the vision of burning bodies and a historical connotation of child sacrifice, and you’ll see that it wasn’t a very desirable place. However, it was a very literal place and the original audience of Jesus would have understood it as such. They would not have heard the word “Gahenna” and thought of our concept of hell– they would have realized Jesus was talking about an actual place outside the city. ~ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/what-jesus-talked-about-when-he-talked-about-hell/ END

As far as Luke 16 goes? I think one should go back to chapter 11, where this whole conversation is given more context. Jesus was addressing the Pharisee's hypocrisy of how they were [mis]treating the poor. Jesus takes the opportunity to tell two parables about what true hospitality looks like.5


Meaning of Hades (ᾅδης)
There are differences in the way the word ᾅδης has been translated (“in ᾅδης, where he was in torment” 16:23). Most of the major English translations chose to use the Greek transliteration Hades (e.g., NIV, NASB, ESV, NRSV), whereas the KJV is infamously known for its usage of Hell, and yet a couple opted for the phrase “the place of the dead” (e.g., NLT, CEB). Hades (ᾅδης) is used a total of ten times in the New Testament (NT), and it is always referring to the place of the dead.29 If Jesus were to use this parable to describe what happens to the wicked in Hell (i.e., in the Final Judgment), he would likely have used the word Gehenna (γέεννα) instead.30 In addition, since the five brothers are still alive while the rich man is in torment, it is unlikely that the final resurrection or judgment has taken place. Theologically, in this regard, “the possibility of a coherent eschatology in the parable is dropped altogether.31
Jesus very clearly describes Hades in Luke 16, a place of paradise and fire, separated by a gap, and which people are conscious. Those in the fire describe their experience as being tormented.

Jesus also mentions the tormented - even torture - aspect of hell in Mt 18 where he describes God as a master who in the end In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
 
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Anto9us

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This 5 point ECT Arminianism was not what Jesus was saying in his 'Sermon on the Mount.'

No such thing as "5 point Arminianism" -- the "points" 5- 4- or 3 relate to C..

C...

Ca...

CALVINISM - the TULIP

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

Arminianism only sees the T , none of the ULIP, and even would not define the T the same way as the [bless and do not curse] Calvinistas...

Arminians will be divided on Once Saved Always Saved vs Once Saved NOT Always Saved,
Arminius himself and John Wesley leaning towards Once Saved NOT Always Saved
 
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Anto9us

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Essentially, contrary to what they may claim, they don't believe salvation by faith, but rather salvation by an election that occurs prior to birth.

An excellent wording of Calvinist soteriology!
 
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