Why people reject the reality of Hell

[FineLinen]

Hell is real. Eternity in heaven and eternal torment in hell is the cornerstone of the Christian faith -anyone who denies this is not a Christian - period!

Nonsense!

 

[Lazarus Short]

I hope you won't be offended by these simple questions.

1. Are you a Christian? Because I'm yet to see a Christian that denies the reality of hell.
2. Have you read the NT?
3. If all there is, is physical death, both God and Satan can kill - so what's the difference? Surely God must have an edge over Satan?

Am I a Christian? Yes.

Have I read the NT? Yes, every book, chapter and verse.

Yes, God can kill, but He plans to resurrect everyone at some time in the future. Satan, as far as I know, can kill (see the book of Job) but must ask God. That is the difference and that the edge God has over Satan. Did you really read what I posted? God made the Cosmos, including the Earth, so He owns it. Those who believe Satan owns it forget that he is a liar, and thus he does not own it. God owns the earth, the nations, men and the cattle on a thousand hills. The Bible tells us this. It also tells us, as implied by Genesis, chapter 1, that the Cosmos is a hierarchy with God at the top...with no opposition except sinning man. Given that "hell" is not listed in the creation, our existence is not a cosmic struggle between God and Satan, Heaven and Hell, over the so-called souls of men, as a contested prize.

Read the post with my conclusions...and the Bible references - it may clear up a few things.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Hell is real. Eternity in heaven and eternal torment in hell is the cornerstone of the Christian faith -anyone who denies this is not a Christian - period!

Seriously? Jesus the Christ is the Cornerstone of the Christian faith. I am shocked by your statement.

 

[Lazarus Short]

People like you should be banned for promoting this tripe. Seriously! You have no place in a Christian forum.

I have been accused on other www forums of "promoting the doctrines of devils." I note that they were promoting doctrines of men about devils. The origin on "hell" in the "goddess" Hel in pagan Norse mythology I offer as evidence. Most Christianity has "pagan DNA." My efforts are to cleanse them out.

 

[Lazarus Short]

How do you interpret the lake of fire, and the fire prepared for the devil and his angels?

First, the King James Bible does NOT label the Lake of Fire as "hell." Given what I have read in the Bible (remember I have read every book, chapter and verse) about God as a Refiner (by Fire or Soap) leads me to see the LoF as just part of that refining-in-fire theme. Impure men go in, their dross, chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble get burned away, and they emerge fit for the Kingdom. Of course, few will accept what I have to say. As for "the devil and his angels," well that is above my pay grade.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I find it interesting that some forms of Buddhism believe a savior emptied hell.

Yes, very interesting. My ex-Buddhist best friend told me that the horrific depictions of "hell" that we see in Tibetan Buddhism are a relic from a long-gone animistic religion of the area, called "Bon."

 

[Der Alte]

First, the King James Bible does NOT label the Lake of Fire as "hell." Given what I have read in the Bible (remember I have read every book, chapter and verse) about God as a Refiner (by Fire or Soap) leads me to see the LoF as just part of that refining-in-fire theme. Impure men go in, their dross, chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble get burned away, and they emerge fit for the Kingdom. Of course, few will accept what I have to say. As for "the devil and his angels," well that is above my pay grade.

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:6 This is the first resurrection. 6 and ho1y is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.2​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence. There is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

My name for these two sentient beings is, “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Others can feel free to call them whatever they want. The 2 beings are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….Additional verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.” In vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.
but;

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

The last chapter of the Bible, Rev. 22., 10 more vss. No salvation, no death, no destruction only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."

 

[Der Alte]

Deleted dual post. Mea Culpa.

 

[BobRyan]

How do you interpret the lake of fire, and the fire prepared for the devil and his angels?

It is literally true as we see it in Rev 20, and it applies to a literal devil, the literal wicked, on literal earth at the literal great white throne judgment and cases the wicked into a literal lake of fire (which is the entire surface of the Earth at some point just before God makes the New Earth).

 

[BobRyan]

Let's move onto the Greek equivalent word "hades." It was used in the Greek translation of the OT and was supposedly the best Greek word for the Hebrew "sheol." Unfortunately, it brought in a fair amount of pagan baggage with it. The Greek concept of the realm of the dead was far from the Hebrew idea.

Agreed. Hades and sheol are both terms for the grave of the "place of the dead". But that is not the only word translated "Hell" in the NT.

We also have what could be translated as "fiery hell" or "fiery ghenna"

What is the "fiery Gehenna" to which Jesus referred?

That is what NT writers call it - but John calls it "the lake of fire" in Rev 20. And in both Rev 14 and Rev 20 it is "fire and brimstone".

 

[BobRyan]

Let's tick off the last word in our list of terms "translated" as "hell." It was used just once, in Second Peter 2:4, and it refers to a place where spirits are kept until judgment. Again, close but no banana. The word comes from Greek mythology, which is to say, from paganism, so it's suspect from the get-go, but do you see how a term about a prison for spirits has been morphed into a place of everlasting punishment for lost "souls?" Some accuse me of twisting the Scriptures, but I see a lot of twisting that was done long ago.
To sum up:
sheol, a perfectly good Hebrew word with no implications of eternal conscious torment
hades, a word sort of like "sheol," but from pagan Greek mythology and carrying with it some bad theo-illogical baggage, such as it being the name of a Greek "god"
gehenna, a Greek transliteration of a Hebrew place-name, a place in the real world that you can visit today (it's a park)
tartarus, another word from pagan Greek mythology.
So there you go, half the terms come from pagan Greek mythology, one refers to the city dump of Jerusalem, and the one term (sheol) remaining has no reference to the "hell" of Dante, Milton, Baxter or most folks' beliefs. "Hell" is a 404.

The problem with your review is that the Hebrew NT writers are using the Greek language to convey Christian doctrine to gentiles. The fact that the Greek words they use for hell (fiery hell) as in "lake of fire" are also used in Greek mythology for other ideas - is not a big surprise. Rather we look for how the NT authors used those terms not for how pagans used them.

Just like in our world today - we pray to God - but when a Hindu also says he/she prays to god - they are using the same term - but they mean something different.

 

[wendykvw]

It is literally true as we see it in Rev 20, and it applies to a literal devil, the literal wicked, on literal earth at the literal great white throne judgment and cases the wicked into a literal lake of fire (which is the entire surface of the Earth at some point just before God makes the New Earth).

Yes, if we take that verse alone it can support Endless suffering , annihilation or even divine judgment/purging away the dross. However, when combined with other such passages of God’s nature and character, and the abolishment of suffering, and death I pause on what this one verse is teaching. I would say, I still am not convinced of any particular view.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, if we take that verse alone it can support Endless suffering , annihilation or even divine judgment/purging away the dross. However, when combined with other such passages of God’s nature and character, and the abolishment of suffering, and death I pause on what this one verse is teaching. I would say, I still am not convinced of any particular view.

Well in vs Rev 20:9 we have "consumed" NLT and "devoured" KJV/NKJV/NASB applied to all the wicked - in terms of their death in that fire that comes down out of heaven.

9 And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them. (NLT)

9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. NASB

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. KJV

And you and I might be satisfied to then say -- 'yeah and that is what we see in Matt 10:28'
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

IF that is all we had - we might even say "so why all the fuss -- it is very clear".

=======================

But then someone may say "yes but what about the devil in Rev 20?" is he also to be consumed or does he get eternal life in the lake of fire?

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

My first response is the Ezek 28 already spells out the "turned to ashes.. you will be no more forever" ending for the devil.

Ezek 28:

On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

So at this point - I am not entirely sure we do not know that the devil himself is destoryed, turned to ashes, ceases to be forever.... at the end of that lake of fire event.

 

[Jipsah]

F Impure men go in, their dross, chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble get burned away, and they emerge fit for the Kingdom. Of course, few will accept what I have to say.

A great many will agree with you, because you're essentially talking about purgatory,

 

[BobRyan]

First, the King James Bible does NOT label the Lake of Fire as "hell."

John uses the term "lake of fire" instead of "hell". Revelation was written by the Apostle John.

Still it is the place where the wicked are "consumed" / "Devoured" according to John -- in fire and brimstone.

Given what I have read in the Bible (remember I have read every book, chapter and verse) about God as a Refiner (by Fire or Soap) leads me to see the LoF as just part of that refining-in-fire theme.

You have never read that anyone survives being consumed/devoured in that lake of fire in the Bible.
You never quote a single text saying that anyone emerges from fiery Ghenna or from the lake of fire - because there is not one.

No one has a text saying that someone went to the lake of fire and came back -- and is a better person for it.

Impure men go in, their dross, chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble get burned away, and they emerge fit for the Kingdom.

No text says

• men go into "the lake of fire"/ "fiery ghenna" , their dross, chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble get burned away, and they emerge fit for the Kingdom

Rather you have one text that says DOCTRINE is subjected to having wood,hay,stubble removed.

By not actually quoting the text - you are rendering it in a way that can't be found in scripture.

A great many will agree with you, because you're essentially talking about purgatory,

True . They will feel like he must be speaking of a kind of purgatory not realizing that the statement he makes cannot be found in scripture because he has blended the idea of purgatory with a few selected snipped words out of a sentence in a text of scripture.

 

[FineLinen]

Searth = "

Hell is real. Eternity in heaven and eternal torment in hell is the cornerstone of the Christian faith -anyone who denies this is not a Christian - period!

Search = "eternal torment"

There are no references in the KJB for eternal torment.

Please try again.

 

[Der Alte]

***And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.***

The problem with this proof text is it already happened 700-800 BC

"And I have destroyed you, [past tense] O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up [past tense] because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom[past tense] by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;[past tense]
I put you before kings,[past tense]
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.[past tense]
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;[past tense]
It has consumed you,[past tense]
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth[past tense]
In the eyes of all who see you.[past tense]***"
But the devil and satan are mentioned as existing in Revelation.

Revelation 12:9
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 20:2
(2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 2:10
(10) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 12:12
(12) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Revelation 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

 

[BobRyan]

But then someone may say "yes but what about the devil in Rev 20?" is he also to be consumed or does he get eternal life in the lake of fire?

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

My first response is the Ezek 28 already spells out the "turned to ashes.. you will be no more forever" ending for the devil.

Ezek 28:

On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

So at this point - I am not entirely sure we do not know that the devil himself is destoryed, turned to ashes, ceases to be forever.... at the end of that lake of fire event.

The problem with this proof text is it already happened 700-800 BC

Anyone who thinks that the "covering cherub", that was "perfect in the day he was CREATED", the "anointed Cherub" ... "on the mountain of God" has already had "Fire from the midst of him" -- consume him, turn him to ashes on the earth... has not read the news papers lately.

Lets look at Isaiah 53 to see the Messiah "past tense" in fact it states he was buried - past tense...just as in Ezek 28 we see the covering cherub destroyed "past tense"

Is 53
Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of dry ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we would look at Him,
Nor an appearance that we would take pleasure in Him.
3 He was despised and abandoned by men,
A man of great pain and familiar with sickness;
And like one from whom people hide their faces,
He was despised, and we had no regard for Him.

4 However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the wrongdoing of us all
To fall on Him.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off from the land of the living
For the wrongdoing of my people, to whom the blow was due?
9 And His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10 But the Lord desired
To crush Him, causing Him grief;

=============================

Were we simply not supposed to notice???

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding Ezek 28 application in the more fuller sense - to Satan:

Jamieson Fausset Brown

"Because, &c.--repeated resumptively in Eze 28:6. The apodosis begins at Eze 28:7. "The prince of Tyrus" at the time was Ithobal, or Ithbaal II; the name implying his close connection with Baal, the Phœnician supreme god, whose representative he was.
I am a god, I sit in . . . seat of God . . . the seas--As God sits enthroned in His heavenly citadel exempt from all injury, so I sit secure in my impregnable stronghold amidst the stormiest elements, able to control them at will, and make them subserve my interests. The language, though primarily here applied to the king of Tyre, as similar language is to the king of Babylon (Isa 14:13, 14), yet has an ulterior and fuller accomplishment in Satan"
​

Bible scholars who also happen to be committed to the idea of an eternal burning hell -- will still bring themselves to admit to the obvious fact that the chapter applies to Satan in its fullest sense.

When you seem them do this against their own best interest and preference - you know for certain that the fact is difficult for them to avoid.

 

[returntosender]

Maybe because their guilt runs deep for their sins and they don't want to face the music.