Why people reject the reality of Hell

Der Alte said:

There is a difference between torture and punishment. God does not torture.

Click to expand...

I kind of reckon being burned alive could be considered torture whether it's a form or punishment or not.

Der Alte said:

There is a difference between torture and punishment. .

Click to expand...

torture involves keeping someone alive so they can suffer longer. It involves delivering pain and depending on the fact that the victim lives on. So for example when civil government gives someone the death penalty we find a way to do it without torture. Without skinning them alive, or slowly sawing them in two (as Hebrews 11 mentions) or any other such form of torture.

And we call that humane form of death penalty -- "punishment" but not "torture" - even though the person is being killed as per the civil penal code.

Der Alte said:

Matt 10:28 does not say God will destroy both body and soul in hel. It says "Him who is able to destroy body and soul in hell."

Click to expand...

So are you saying that our Lord was warning of something that God was never really going to do? Interesting. That'd be kind of like my wife telling our granddaughter that she'd best be afraid of me, because
할아버지 is able to throw her out the window. That doesn't really strike terror in little Leah's heart because she know's that even though 할아버지 is able to chuck her out the window, he's going to do no such thing. I don't see that as the nature of the warning out Lord was giving. Seems to me if he's advising a wholesome fear of what God can do, the implicit threat is that God will destroy body and soul in hell. Else why such a warning at all?

I think that's your doctrine talking again. But even the idea that God can destroy both body and soul militates against ECT. One of the basic beliefs of those who hold to ETC is that the soul is inherently immortal and is gonna live forever either in bliss or in torment. Our Lord put paid to that idea when He warned that God is able to destroy both body and soul. To believe that the damned live forever in torment is to believe that God allows them to remain in that state when He can at any time erase them from existence. If they continue to live, they do so because God allows them to, presumably to keep them in perpetual torment (or torture, whether you like the word of not).

So God has the ability to cast the evil out with the rubbish, and to completely erase their existence, but He chooses to keep them in perpetual torture because...?

Praise ye the Lord, whose malice endures forever?

I think our Lord was warning of what God would do. You think it was just another figure of speech.

What God created He can certainly destroy but not one single verse in either testament says God has or will destroy even one soul in hell or anywhere else.

Click to expand...

So Jesus' warning wasn't one really, and maybe should have concluded with "...no that He's gonna actually do that." Right?

eleos1954 said:

so eternal life is given to everybody it's just a matter of whether they burn forever or not?

Click to expand...

That is the central idea of ECT. The wages of sin is eternal life under torture, but the gift of God is eternal life not under torture. Nobody dies.

How happy is one when they believe people you loved are being tormented continuously in this "burning hell"? How does one sleep at night believing this? How does one believe in a God that would do this? It's a false and terrible teaching.

Click to expand...

Yeah, Great Granddad is screaming in hell now because he thought Christianity was just another weird foreign religion. I'll be he sings anther tune after a few thousand years in the fire... And we're supposed to be good with that.

I'm not. The wages of sin is death. God can, and implicitly does, destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul that sins will die. Sinners are not found in the Book of Life. "I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you". If God never knew you, you never lived, your existence has been removed from time and space." Sinners cease, not just to be, but to ever have been.

eleos1954 said:

so eternal life is given to everybody it's just a matter of whether they burn forever or not?

Click to expand...

Good point. So then no Bible text says the wicked have eternal life.

BobRyan said:

Not one text says that those who are thrown into the like of fire have eternal life ... or live forever there etc.

Click to expand...

Wrong! Satan, the beast and the false prophet who is a person are thrown into the LOF and tormented day and night forever.
Also,
Rev 21:4 there shall be no more death,
Rev 21:5 Behold, I make all things new
But 3 vss later
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is [still] the second death.
No more death after vs. 4 so evidently these guys don't die.

But we do have a text saying that Satan is reduced to ashes in that punishment - as already noted in Ezek 28.

Click to expand...

If you want to reference a scripture, quote it. I don't have the time or inclination to chase down every out-of-context vs. you refer to.

And we have one that say that the fiery hell punisment of Rev 20 - destroys "both body and soul" Matt 10:28 just like we are told that "God is able to keep you from stumbling" all these texts confirm what we have said all along.

Click to expand...

I don't respond to bits and pieces of out-of-context proof texts.

Jude 1: 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all time and now and forever. Amen
========================
I think we are still waiting for your response to this --

Click to expand...

I don't think so, I already addressed Jude. Evidently you didn't like my answer. To whom is Jude addressed?
The problem I got is you keep referring to bits and pieces of vss.

BobRyan said:

Good point. So then no Bible text says the wicked have eternal life.

Click to expand...

Have you read Revelation?
The lake of fire passages, in context.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still alive in the lake of fire although it is called "the second death.".
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.
My name for these two sentient beings are “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Others can feel free to call them whatever they want. The 2 beings are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….Additional verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.
. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new,” vs. 5.
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; fearful, unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.
And instead of salvation or destruction in Rev 22:11 the unjust and filthy remain unjust and filthy. Ten more vss. the end. No salvation no destruction.

Good point. So then no Bible text says the wicked have eternal life.

Der Alte said:

Have you read Revelation?

Click to expand...

do you mean "This week?"

Der Alte said:

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:6 This is the first resurrection. 6 and ho1y is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.​

Click to expand...

A great example of verses in Rev 20 that do not say " the wicked have eternal life "

Der Alte said:

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still alive in the lake of fire

Click to expand...

The statement "still alive in the lake of fire" is not found in all of scripture much less in Rev 20. I suspect we both know that.

Beasts in Dan 7, 8, Rev 13 and Rev 20 are just as scripture states - symbols not a specific "person".

Der Alte said:

although it is called "the second death.".

Click to expand...

I assume you have a "not really" to add to that.

Notice that the following verses have no such 'not really' for the "Second Death" . there is no "not dead but rather alive for all eternity" statement here.


The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8.

Not "The second life" or "eternal life" or 'never ending life'.

John uses the terms of Isaiah 34 where we see that those terms do not negate the idea that after the event is over - animals live there.

Is 34: (NASB)

9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.

BobRyan said:

Good point. So then no Bible text says the wicked have eternal life.***

Click to expand...

If you are going to reply to my post please do so in a reasonable, logical manner don't chop it up in bits and pieces out-of-context as you did throughout this post.
Once again the lake of fire passages, in context.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence. There is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.
My name for these two sentient beings is, “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Others can feel free to call them whatever they want. The 2 beings are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….Additional verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.
Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.” In vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.
The last chapter of the Bible,
10 more vss. No salvation, no destruction only; "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:"

BobRyan said:

Good point. So then no Bible text says the wicked have eternal life.

Click to expand...

Nope .... the wicked get totally destroyed by fire by God Himself .... described as the 2nd death.

The immortal "soul" belief really confuses a lot of scripture and scripture does not teach that we are immortal .... immortality was forfeited when access to the tree of life in Eden was put in place.

Genesis 3

22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”23Therefore the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life.

We are NOT immortal in any way .... we don't receive that until Jesus returns and scripture is very clear about that also.

One day we will once again been given access to the tree of life and that access will be for eternity.

Revelation 22

Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; (NASB) Rev. 22:1-3

BobRyan said:

torture involves keeping someone alive so they can suffer longer. It involves delivering pain and depending on the fact that the victim lives on. So for example when civil government gives someone the death penalty we find a way to do it without torture. Without skinning them alive, or slowly sawing them in two (as Hebrews 11 mentions) or any other such form of torture.
And we call that humane form of death penalty -- "punishment" but not "torture" - even though the person is being killed as per the civil penal code.

Click to expand...

I wonder why nobody in this entire forum will address these two vss?
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18.
Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
.....In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment,” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek is different than koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars are competent enough to know the correct meanings of old words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer used and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.

Der Alte said:

I wonder why nobody in this entire forum will address these two vss?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
.....In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment,” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek is different than koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars are competent enough to know the correct meanings of old words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer used and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.

Click to expand...

That's been addressed multiple times. From the UR perspective it could pertain to an eternal loss of rewards. From the annihilation perspective it could pertain to eternal death vs eternal life.

eleos1954 said:

Nope .... the wicked get totally destroyed by fire by God Himself .... described as the 2nd death.

The immortal "soul" belief really confuses a lot of scripture and scripture does not teach that we are immortal .... immortality was forfeited when access to the tree of life in Eden was put in place.

Genesis 3

22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”23Therefore the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life.

We are NOT immortal in any way .... we don't receive that until Jesus returns and scripture is very clear about that also.

One day we will once again been given access to the tree of life and that access will be for eternity.

Revelation 22

Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; (NASB) Rev. 22:1-3

Click to expand...

That's a really good summation. Very informative.

Gregorikos said:

“I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into  hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! Luke 12:4-5

Click to expand...

To whom is Jesus addressing this to? What does the context reveal?
This scripture by itself says, "I say to you, My friends..."

Is Jesus throwing his friends in hell?
With friends like that... who needs enemies?

Saint Steven said:

To whom is Jesus addressing this to? What does the context reveal?
This scripture by itself says, "I say to you, My friends..."

Is Jesus throwing his friends in hell?
With friends like that... who needs enemies?

Click to expand...

I don't want my friends going to hell, and Jesus didn't want his going there either.

MMXX said:

That's been addressed multiple times. From the UR perspective it could pertain to an eternal loss of rewards. From the annihilation perspective it could pertain to eternal death vs eternal life.

Click to expand...

Wronq! Copout! When scripture as written does not support one's assumptions/presuppositions, sin problema, just change the meaning. Jesus is quoted as using "death" 17 times. If Jesus had meant death that is what He would have said, Matt 25:46.
Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
It ain't punishment unless it is experienced. You can't beat a dead horse.
Jesus taught e.g.,
[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.

RaptureToBeSoon said:

People reject the idea of Hell because it is scary and because they can't understand a God that would send people to Hell. (Actually, people choose Hell.)

Barna does a lot of polling. A recent poll shows that upwards of 50% of the people in America that claim they are Christian.... Do not believe in Hell.


........

Click to expand...

How was the question framed?

-CryptoLutheran

eleos1954 said:

Nope .... the wicked get totally destroyed by fire by God Himself .... described as the 2nd death.
The immortal "soul" belief really confuses a lot of scripture and scripture does not teach that we are immortal .... immortality was forfeited when access to the tree of life in Eden was put in place.
Genesis 3
22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”23Therefore the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life.
We are NOT immortal in any way .... we don't receive that until Jesus returns and scripture is very clear about that also.
One day we will once again been given access to the tree of life and that access will be for eternity.
Revelation 22
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; (NASB) Rev. 22:1-3

Click to expand...

The problem with this post is it assumes that God cannot do something. God grants aionios zoe/eternal life to the righteous. If God wants sinful mankind to live and be punished forever He can make that happen.
Verses in Rev which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.
Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.” In vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still called] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.
The last chapter of the Bible, Rev. 22., 10 more vss. No salvation, no destruction only "he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:"

RaptureToBeSoon said:

People reject the idea of Hell because it is scary and because they can't understand a God that would send people to Hell. (Actually, people choose Hell.)

Barna does a lot of polling. A recent poll shows that upwards of 50% of the people in America that claim they are Christian.... Do not believe in Hell.

Click to expand...

According to what I've heard and read, up to about the forth century 75% of Christians didn't believe in a hell of eternal torment.

Hell was never created for Mankind. It was created for Satan, his Fallen Angels and Demons. It was after sin and death entered man.... that sinful, unsaved man was assigned to Hell.


.......