Why people reject the reality of Hell

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Universalism makes the final judgment completely irrelevant.

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On the contrary.
UR rescues the final judgment. Gives it meaning and purpose.

What will the God that told us to love our enemies do with his own "enemies"? Incinerate them? Feel the LOVE.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Jesus used the word hades...

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Doubtful.
What Jesus actually said was translated into NT Greek and then translated again into English for us. Jesus did not say what our English translation says. The translators chose the word "Hades".

Saint Steven said:

Doubtful.
What Jesus actually said was translated into NT Greek and then translated again into English for us. Jesus did not say what our English translation says. The translators chose the word "Hades".

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Find, then don't hold to the inspiration of Scripture, which makes me far less likely to trust your interpretation of things since it implies you can gather more insight into Christ than the Apostles.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

It does not necessarily entail that it is something we do. That simply cannot be deduced from what I said.

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Your last sentence below (in bold) reads, "... the Free Grace movement which some of that movement believe that someone can be saved even if they later reject Jesus."

Do you believe that someone can lose their salvation if they reject Jesus?
That sounds like us doing something. We cannot lose what we never owned in the first place. It wasn't ours to lose.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

For example, how can there be "more faithful" people in universalism? Shouldn't the logical conclusion of universalism be that we are all equal before God? IMO, universalism is worse than the Free Grace movement which some of that movement believe that someone can be saved even if they later reject Jesus.

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Jesse Dornfeld said:

Find, then don't hold to the inspiration of Scripture, which makes me far less likely to trust your interpretation of things since it implies you can gather more insight into Christ than the Apostles.

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You are claiming that Jesus "used" the word "Hades". (by inspiration)
Does every English translation use the word "Hades"? If not, which one is inspired?

The KJVO folks might be VERY upset with you. - lol

Saint Steven said:

Your last sentence below (in bold) reads, "... the Free Grace movement which some of that movement believe that someone can be saved even if they later reject Jesus."

Do you believe that someone can lose their salvation if they reject Jesus?
That sounds like us doing something. We cannot lose what we never owned in the first place. It wasn't ours to lose.

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I believe someone can lose their salvation if they no longer believe Christ was the Son of God who was resurrected. That does not entail works-based salvation. My view is that all of the Christian life is based on the condition of our hearts. So this idea that there are "good" and "bad" "actions" which is what our faith is based on is incorrect. If our heart grows cold, then we turn our back on Christ, thereby crucifying Him once again and making it impossible to once again repent.

Saint Steven said:

You are claiming that Jesus "used" the word "Hades". (by inspiration)
Does every English translation use the word "Hades"? If not, which one is inspired?

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Open a lexicon and see what it says.

FineLinen said:

The Lord of Glory will change every one of us in His due time, the good, bad and ugly.

“Put together all the tenderest love you know of, multiply it by infinity and you will begin to see glimpses of the love and grace of God.” ~ Hannah W. Smith

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This is another Gospel, making the death and resurrection of Christ meaningless.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Jesus used the word hades so you are quite wrong unless you put your understanding of hell and the afterlife above that of Christ.

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Jesus the Christ is recorded in the NT as using the word "hades," but what did He really say? Most likely, He said some term in Aramaic. I don't know about you, but I find it repugnant to think that He would use a term referring back to a pagan Greek "god." God told us back in the OT not to so much as mention pagan "gods," so why would He not follow His own rules?

Always remember that you are reading a translation.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

I believe someone can lose their salvation if they no longer believe Christ was the Son of God who was resurrected. That does not entail works-based salvation. My view is that all of the Christian life is based on the condition of our hearts. So this idea that there are "good" and "bad" "actions" which is what our faith is based on is incorrect. If our heart grows cold, then we turn our back on Christ, thereby crucifying Him once again and making it impossible to once again repent.

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Matthew 18:12 NIV
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?

Hmm said:

So His reason for being, and dying, was to remove all excuses for people so that they can be legitimately condemned? And there was I thinking He came to save, not to condemn. Silly me.



Indeed.

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The way He did it was to send His Son into the world to become the substitute, to die on the Cross and take God's eternal punishment for sin for those who choose to believe the Gospel, repent of sin, and be born again to be transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Open a lexicon and see what it says.

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That might tell us what NT Greek word was used. But it still doesn't tell us what Jesus actually said. Can you read Aramaic? cc: @MMXX

Lazarus Short said:

Jesus the Christ is recorded in the NT as using the word "hades," but what did He really say? Most likely, He said some term in Aramaic. I don't know about you, but I find it repugnant to think that He would use a term referring back to a pagan Greek "god." God told us back in the OT not to so much as mention pagan "gods," so why would He not follow His own rules?

Always remember that you are reading a translation.

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Even if he did use an Aramaic term, the principle is the same. How far do you need to deny what scripture says to maintain your view?

Saint Steven said:

Matthew 18:12 NIV
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?

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Another assumption you are making is that I do not think that Christ pursues us.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Even if he did use an Aramaic term, the principle is the same. How far do you need to deny what scripture says to maintain your view?

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I need to deny only one word, "hell" itself. Even in the KJV, with "hell" gone, and yes it has it origins in north European paganism, universal reconciliation falls into place quite easily. On the other hand, deniers of UR must deny dozens of texts. I have a list of 150 - perhaps you'd like to see it here.

Lazarus Short said:

I need to deny only one word, "hell" itself. Even in the KJV, with "hell" gone, and yes it has it origins in north European paganism, universal reconciliation falls into place quite easily. On the other hand, deniers of UR must deny dozens of texts. I have a list of 150 - perhaps you'd like to see it here.

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Sure. Perhaps you would like to measure your 150 against all the passages that counter yours.

You really do have to assume a lot to say Jesus didn't even mean some function of the afterlife here. The fact you dispute that it is talking about the afterlife is quite surprising. I just take this to mean you do indeed need to deny scripture to maintain your view.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Sure. Perhaps you would like to measure your 150 against all the passages that counter yours.

You really do have to assume a lot to say Jesus didn't even mean some function of the afterlife here. The fact you dispute that it is talking about the afterlife is quite surprising. I just take this to mean you do indeed need to deny scripture to maintain your view.

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As ever, differences in interpretation are interpreted as "denying the scriptures." Charges of heresy are never far behind.

Lazarus Short said:

I need to deny only one word, "hell" itself. Even in the KJV, with "hell" gone, and yes it has it origins in north European paganism, universal reconciliation falls into place quite easily. On the other hand, deniers of UR must deny dozens of texts. I have a list of 150 - perhaps you'd like to see it here.

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All irrelevant arguments. You claim to have 150 scriptures which in your estimation prove UR. I say NO you do not. What a word might have meant in some ancient civilization 100s of years ago is meaningless. For example "hell" in German means bright.
When one says "truck" in English people think of a large boxy vehicle used for hauling large, heavy loads. But originally "truck" meant vegetables. Then it came to mean a vehicle that vegetables were transported in. But nobody with an IQ above room temperature would ever think of saying vegetables when someone says truck.
And the clincher there were no, zero, none English words in the Bible until 1611. So the date that any English word appeared in the Bible is largely irrelevant.
I have 5 verses which disprove UR.
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted below, know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46 and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18.
Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek is different than koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars are competent enough to know the correct meanings of old words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer used and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.
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“aionios” occurs 79x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [.03%]
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T. [53%]
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T. [35%]
Jesus used “aionios” twenty-eight [28] times, 26% of the total. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
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Juxtapose means, the act or an instance of placing two or more things side by side often to compare or contrast.
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refers to something which is not/cannot be eternal, e.g. “world,””age.” etc.
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following 24 verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, forever, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, book of Romans, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” Thus in this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

Lazarus Short said:

As ever, differences in interpretation are interpreted as "denying the scriptures." Charges of heresy are never far behind.

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You are literally saying you have a better understanding of what the word hades means better than what is recorded in the Bible. What word would you prefer the text to say? To my mind, it does not get clearer. You can say it doesn't represent the exact word Jesus used, but it does not follow that the word is wholly inadequate. You need to demonstrate it is inadequate and I see no way to do that.

Watchman1 said:

This is another Gospel, making the death and resurrection of Christ meaningless.

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Surely you jest!

"He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes--we who were the first to fix our hopes on Christ. ~R.F.Weymouth