Why only male homosexuality?

[BigBadWlf]

My first thought is that male homosexuality isn’t condemned at all.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Does saying that something is 'unnatural' count as speaking against it? The Greek is actually closer to 'against nature' but antibiotics would qualify as that. Certainly Saint Paul doesn't describe it as 'shameful', 'indecent' or meriting a 'due penalty' as he does male homosexuality.

The Greek word paraphysin does not mean "to go against the laws of nature", as those promoting discrimination against homosexuals often claim but rather it means to engage in action(s) which is uncharacteristic for that person or to agasint your own nature. An example of the word paraphysin is used in Romans 11:24, where God acts in an uncharacteristic (paraphysin) way to accept the Gentiles. Thus the passages correctly reads that it would be unnatural for heterosexuals to live as homosexuals, and for homosexuals to live as heterosexuals. And what Paul is condemning is the unnaturalness of going against one’s nature.

 

[Zaac]

I suspect that Saint Paul's correspondents were less familiar with New Testament law.

They actually should have been very familiar with it. The Scriptures were passed around by those who had experienced what is now in written form.

 

[TheGMan]

They actually should have been very familiar with it. The Scriptures were passed around by those who had experienced what is now in written form.

I'm not quite sure I know what you mean here. But no, the Church of the time should have been more than familiar with the teachings of the Apostles.

But nothing that has been preserved of their teaching seems to condemn female homosexuality, no?

 

[OllieFranz]

There are only five passages that speak, or seem to speak, directly to the question of homosexuality.

Leviticus 18:22, and Leviticus 20:13 forbid adult Jewish men from being the active partner of a certain action with another man. There are good reasons to question whether the specific act as described also included the worship of foreign gods, or was non-consensual. If either or both of the further conditions apply, then it is not a general ban on homosexuality. But even if neither further condition applies, these verses occur in a section of the Bible that contains laws specific to the Jews.

Any laws that also applied generally to mankind were repeated elsewhere and/or marked as especially "wicked." Neither applies to the actions banned in these verses.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:8-11, both include a list of offenders against the Law. Included in both lists is the word "arsenokoitai" which is often translated as homosexuals or some slightly vague equivalent. The word appears for the first time in all of Greek literature in these letters, and only appears four or five times afterward, always in Christian writings, and always in "sin lists." This makes it difficult to determine the meaning.

The homosexual translation is based on two assumptions. First, that the word refers back to the Leviticus verses. This is supported, but not proven, by the fact that the words "arsenos" and "koites" appear in the Greek translation of the Leviticus verses in the Septuagint. Second, that the Levitical ban is to be applied to all homosexual activity, and to all people. This assumption does not seem to be well supported. Even if it were better supported, however, it would not logically follow that these verses are condemning homosexuality. The certitude of a conclusion cannot be greater than the certitude of the premises.

As long as there are other viable possible translations of "arsenokoies," we cannot be sure of a claim based on this translation. Or if the ban is not on all homosexual activity, or not binding on all people, then the conclusion collapses.

The fifth passage which references homosexuality is Romans 1. Verses 26 and 27 bring up an example of moral corruption and addiction caused by spiritual rebellion. The specific example is homosexual, but only because the original author chose a homosexual example for reasons which are irrelevant to this discussion. The original author aknowledges these irrelevant motives immediate afterward, and from that point on, to avoid the secondary issue, uses examples of alcoholism rather than sexual addiction.

All other verses which are used to condemn homosexuality do not specifically address the issue, and the "fact" that homosexuality is a sin must be accepted a priori before the verse can so be used.

 

[Phinehas2]

Well maybe a more neutral way of expressing the problem would be... is female homosexuality condemned?

Yes Romans 1

 

[Phinehas2]

DEar Ollifranz,
No there are not not just five passages that address same-sex sex, there are at least a dozen... those passages where Jesus NT teaching affirms God's purpose as man and woman kind of exclude all sex outside marriage.
Please dont try and dismiss the evidence others provide as not evidence even if you dont believe it.

All you have done is attempt once again to dispute some of the passages you think address same-sex sex, without having any of your own that countenance same-sex sex you are hardly in a good position.

You might like to consider the passages that you think speak or seem to speak of homosexuality dont countenance it.
My view is the passages are clear and your faith in same-sex sex is based on your disbeilef and lack of faith in Jesus Christ according to His Biblical testimony.

 

[davedjy]

DEar Ollifranz,
No there are not not just five passages that address same-sex sex, there are at least a dozen... those passages where Jesus NT teaching affirms God's purpose as man and woman kind of exclude all sex outside marriage.

None of those passages refer directly to homosexuality, so you may wish to stick with the few that have been under dispute. Those "other verses" are not even used by any Scholar as a debate point.

Please dont try and dismiss the evidence others provide as not evidence even if you dont believe it.

What evidence? Looking at the original Greek, you pretty much lose your whole argument. The Greek Words used in Romans 1 are "phusis" and "phusikos", which both mean a person's natural disposition and natural instincts. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that a gay or lesbian does not have a natural disposition to the same sex.

 

[The Lady Kate]

God's Word speaks against male homosexual acts as well as female homosexual acts.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:26-27

But this is depicted as God's punishment, not an act of free will... God does not make people sin.

 

[walloffire]

Glory be to God and to his holy son Jesus!

 

[walloffire]

Why should we even care? The Bible is just a book.

tell it to the author

if you were of God, you would hear God's words.

Mat 4:3-10
(3) And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
(4) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
(5) Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
(6) And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
(7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
(8) Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
(9) And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
(10) Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

He wasn't reading it from the Sunday New York Times...

Merely the fact that "it was written" is enough for Jesus, and its enough for me. The Bible is WAYYYYYYYYY more than a book. If you don't believe it, check your history books, and see what all the Bible and its God have done, through Christians, through Israel, throughout time.

Ask yourself: why would Peter and the others die horrible deaths testifying to the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Its because they saw him, and were sore afraid, for God really had come to earth.

 

[The Lady Kate]

tell it to the author

if you were of God, you would hear God's words.

Mat 4:3-10
(3) And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
(4) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
(5) Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
(6) And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
(7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
(8) Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
(9) And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
(10) Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

He wasn't reading it from the Sunday New York Times...

Jesus quoted Scripture to an audience who believed in Scripture... had he quoted the Sunday New York Times, his ministry would've never gotten off the ground.

Merely the fact that "it was written" is enough for Jesus, and its enough for me. The Bible is WAYYYYYYYYY more than a book. If you don't believe it, check your history books, and see what all the Bible and its God have done, through Christians, through Israel, throughout time.

I couldn't help but notice how you phrased it: "The Bible and its God..." as if God were merely a character in the almighty Book.

Very telling.

Ask yourself: why would Peter and the others die horrible deaths testifying to the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Its because they saw him, and were sore afraid, for God really had come to earth.

Peter and the others were afraid of Jesus?

 

[TheGMan]

Sorry I missed this one...

Yes Romans 1

Can you explain what Romans 1 condemns female homosexuality as? To my inexpert eye, the only characteristic that applies to female homosexuality there is "against nature" which - as has already been pointed out - is used to describe Gentile Christians later in chapter 11 of the epistle.

 

[walloffire]

Peter and the others were afraid of Jesus?

Luk 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

Peter was, as he should be, afraid. But Jesus responds (through the gospel/crucifixion):

Luk 5:10 And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.


Fear is unto those who do not believe in Jesus. Its the first step in the God-man relationship. Love, and thus obedience, comes next.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

They are not a grievous thing to keep, with the grace and help of the Holy Spirit.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

And what, praytell, is so "telling"? There are many characters in the Bible, which God wrote before time began.

 

[walloffire]

I couldn't help but notice how you phrased it: "The Bible and its God..." as if God were merely a character in the almighty Book.

Mat 22:15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.

He wrote the book by His Holy Spirit through the prophets. Get used to it.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Luk 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

Peter was, as he should be, afraid. But Jesus responds (through the gospel/crucifixion):

Luk 5:10 And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.


Fear is unto those who do not believe in Jesus. Its the first step in the God-man relationship. Love, and thus obedience, comes next.

Fear would be the natural response to a fearful situation... such as a deeply religious person coming face-to-face with a God whom their scriptures describe as a strict and harsh judge... as the Hebrews traditionally believed.

But why should we be afraid of our savior?

And what, praytell, is so "telling"? There are many characters in the Bible, which God wrote before time began.

But that's not what you said before... you spoke first of what the Bible had done... and then "Its God..." Tells a lot about which is first and foremost in your thinking.

And to tell the truth... the Bible was not written "before time began..." more like between around 1300 BC and AD 100... well within the boundries of time.

 

[walloffire]

Its contents today were foreknown before time began by God, whose Holy Spirit breathed the words into it. The condition it is in today is the condition God wanted it to be in. .

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken;

I know, you've heard that SO many people have changed it or altered it, but don't you think God can control that too? Oh, or is he not that powerful in your book. He has kept his scriptures, just like he has kept his sheep, and they both will endure forever.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Its contents today were foreknown before time began by God, whose Holy Spirit breathed the words into it. The condition it is in today is the condition God wanted it to be in. .

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken;

I know, you've heard that SO many people have changed it or altered it, but don't you think God can control that too? Oh, or is he not that powerful in your book. He has kept his scriptures, just like he has kept his sheep, and they both will endure forever.

But His sheep haven't endured forever...

 

[The Lady Kate]

Mat 22:15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.

He wrote the book by His Holy Spirit through the prophets. Get used to it.

Doesn't change the fact that you've put the book before God.

 

[AetheriusLamia]

Only male homosexuality is condemned because back in Leviticus-times, they were attempting to build up the Jewish nation, (after the Babylon exile?) and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] during gay intercourse was seen as "wasted sperm", sperm that could have gone to creating another Jewish baby.

At least, this is what a jewish girl has told me. (And, as we know, female [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] do not waste an egg each time.)