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Why One God?

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RedBalfour

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Seriously, to some people the idea of more than one God is just ludicrous, and they have to...well, here's a conversation I had with my mother a year or so ago.
"No, I dont believe in the Christian God. I'm Pagan, therefore, I believe in multiple Gods"
(After all the 'No you dont, you're christian' stuff) "So...these other 'Gods', what do they do"
"Well, basicaly some of them work with different types of nature or even different actions. Like hunting, or i dont know, carpentry"
"So they're like...patron Saints?"
"No"

And a similar reference to saints and angels came up when i had this similar chat with the school/diasis (i know i've spelt that wrong) priest. He couldn't understand that beings of power could be anywhere near together without breaking into holy war every day. so he condensed it to the level of angels, and i didn't have time to argue, because i had Business studies to worry about.

So, a few questions.
1. Why do many chrisitans find the idea of multiple Gods so hard to comprehend?
2. Why do you only believe in one God?
and 3. Who is this (Christian) God person anyway?
 
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Sketcher

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Many gods isn't hard to comprehend, we reject it because our one God is superior and He is the God who is real. He is benevolent, merciful, just, all-powerful, all-knowing, and His authority knows no bounds. He cannot be escaped, He cannot be overpowered. And I find all this comforting. If the God of the Universe was sadistic or quick-tempered, or less than any of the things that God is, people would be in serious trouble.
 
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RedBalfour

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Well, we do know he's a rather vengeful God when he want to be. Plagues of Locust?

"He is benevolent, merciful, just, all-powerful, all-knowing, and His authority knows no bounds. He cannot be escaped, He cannot be overpowered"
I can say the same for my Gods though. replace "he" with a name or a "they" or a list of names.

His superiority is also a debatable point. Assume that all Gods in teh universe are real.
God, with his ability to kill 1st born children and his special "Smite the Heretic" attack, would probably lose a fight against Thor, who has a large magical hammer and control of thunder.
However, God may win against someone like Freya, who may be too busy Goddessing over poetry, love and war at the same time to even show up for the fight.
But if it came to the Norse pantheon vs God. my money's on the Pantheon every time, they've got the numbers.

OK, surrealist ramble over, you can all come out now ;)

If the God of the Universe was sadistic or quick-tempered, or less than any of the things that God is, people would be in serious trouble.
I find the fact that my dieties are more human to be a comfort. But i know from RE lessons that catholics remind people not to think of God in human terms. which i see as a pointless thing for a God to do, create a people's who he can't understand.
 
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Sketcher

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Well, we do know he's a rather vengeful God when he want to be. Plagues of Locust?
When He unleashes judgment, He does so according to justice, and provides a way out for the faithful. Besides, look at some of the other "gods" who were class acts - Molech, Ishtar, Bel, Zeus - God is morally superior to them all.

His superiority is also a debatable point. Assume that all Gods in teh universe are real.
God, with his ability to kill 1st born children and his special "Smite the Heretic" attack, would probably lose a fight against Thor, who has a large magical hammer and control of thunder.
However, God may win against someone like Freya, who may be too busy Goddessing over poetry, love and war at the same time to even show up for the fight.
But if it came to the Norse pantheon vs God. my money's on the Pantheon every time, they've got the numbers.
Well, the Lord would say bring it on. His power is LIMITLESS. He's taken on false gods before (1 Kings 18:16-39). This is in addition to the fact that any and all powers behind false religions are just puny demons masquerading as gods. The Lord, even weakened in a human body, sent at least two thousand of them into an absolute panic just by showing up in the same area. He'll take your Norse pantheon and all other pantheons in a free for all. Those "gods" won't show up because they have felt His wrath before and they know their doom is certain.


I find the fact that my dieties are more human to be a comfort. But i know from RE lessons that catholics remind people not to think of God in human terms. which i see as a pointless thing for a God to do, create a people's who he can't understand.
But God can understand us! In addition to His being all-knowing, God the Son took on human form and experienced human weakness. Even better, He didn't compromise His righteousness to do it.

"For we do not have a high priest (Jesus Christ) who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need." - Hebrews 4:15-16
 
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RedBalfour

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Besides, look at some of the other "gods" who were class acts - Molech, Ishtar, Bel, Zeus - God is morally superior to them all.

Realy? Do you have an example? I can't name many things Zeus did, but most of the greek and roman gods were having sex with thier children. I'm not sure which is worse. Sending them to die for the sake of some strangers, or having sex with them. they're both fairly nefarious.

That's another thing i dont get. Everything that isn't God is a Demon isn't it? Even if it feels like Gods, tastes like Gods, smells like Gods and even sounds like Gods, it must be a Demon, and you can't be wrong.

(1 Kings 18:16-39).
I'd like to read this but i dont own a bible, and there isn't one in my house anymore. it sounds an interesting passage.
 
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Sketcher

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Realy? Do you have an example? I can't name many things Zeus did, but most of the greek and roman gods were having sex with thier children. I'm not sure which is worse. Sending them to die for the sake of some strangers, or having sex with them. they're both fairly nefarious.
Jesus volunteered:

"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." - John 10:17-18

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father." - Philippians 2:5-11

In addition, God is one God, not three gods. Jesus is just one of three Persons of God - a "part" if you will (this is a gross oversimplification). God had a body on earth, but He was also in Heaven. It's not just like a man sending his son to die, though there is that dimension to it. Just as much, it is more like God rolling up His own sleeves and going through all this Himself.

Now, contrast this nobility with the Babylonian gods (read the Epic Of Gilgamesh) who just get cheap amusement out of the suffering of human beings. Or with the brutality of Molech, who demanded live infant sacrifices. Zeus was sexually greedy, and the none of the Greek oracles were as straightforward as the prophesies of God.

That's another thing i dont get. Everything that isn't God is a Demon isn't it? Even if it feels like Gods, tastes like Gods, smells like Gods and even sounds like Gods, it must be a Demon, and you can't be wrong.
"No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons." - 1 Corinthians 10:20


I'd like to read this but i dont own a bible, and there isn't one in my house anymore. it sounds an interesting passage.

Here:

Elijah on Mount Carmel
So Obadiah went to meet Ahab and told him, and Ahab went to meet Elijah. When he saw Elijah, he said to him, "Is that you, you troubler of Israel?"

"I have not made trouble for Israel," Elijah replied. "But you and your father's family have. You have abandoned the LORD's commands and have followed the Baals. Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table."

So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him."
But the people said nothing.

Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the LORD's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. Get two bulls for us. Let them choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire—he is God."
Then all the people said, "What you say is good."

Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire." So they took the bull given them and prepared it.
Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

At noon Elijah began to taunt them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened." So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come here to me." They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the LORD, which was in ruins. Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, "Your name shall be Israel." With the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs of seed. He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, "Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood."

"Do it again," he said, and they did it again.
"Do it a third time," he ordered, and they did it the third time. The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.

At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. Answer me, O LORD, answer me, so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again."

Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD -he is God! The LORD -he is God!"​
 
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RedBalfour

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Hehehe that was bad timing, i'd just looked it up and read it myself :p

I'm saving this place here for some more reply.
--------
I can't take that as something of solid evidence. maybe Baal (who i've never realy heard of or prayed to) doesn't have any power in Jerasalem, and if he did, why would he waste his time proving himself. Belief is what matters realy. I bet if you and me sat down together and asked our gods to light the gas fire, we'd all die of gas inhilation.

And if that did realy happen, then the Baal's were playing fair, and the christians decided to pour clear oil on thier fire and got some bloke to spark it on the sly

I dont trust anyone not to lie or exaggerate.
 
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Sketcher

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I can't take that as something of solid evidence. maybe Baal (who i've never realy heard of or prayed to) doesn't have any power in Jerasalem, and if he did, why would he waste his time proving himself. Belief is what matters realy. I bet if you and me sat down together and asked our gods to light the gas fire, we'd all die of gas inhilation.
Baal was the pagan god that the pagans worshipped in that region before the Jews came. One of them.

And if that did realy happen, then the Baal's were playing fair, and the christians decided to pour clear oil on thier fire and got some bloke to spark it on the sly
Really? There were no Christians there, only one Jew. There were hundreds around him to make sure he did not light the fire, and there were gallons and gallons of water thrown on top of it - which the pagans brought. As for playing fair, if anything Baal had the advantage both in the number of priests and that there was no water dumped on his altar. Yet he did not show up.
 
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RedBalfour

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(Sorry, i didn't know this was jewish OT)
What exactly was Baal God of? and does he count as pagan if he doens't have any Gods around him?

I dont think the ammount of priests the god brought has much to do with anything, and there's always the chance someone made the passage up. i do, in certain circumstances believe that people can proform an act of magic or divine power, but that guy should have been burned at the stake right away. Thou shalt not tolerate a witch.
 
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salida

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Redbalfour--

Why? Because the bible is truly authentic and is therefore the standard against any other beliefs. This may seem like a simple answer - but it is that simple. Some good books to read for details is Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in a court of law concerning evidence and proof of the bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest).

Its the most true book in the world because of the overwhelming evidence that points to it. Also, I recommend a website at www.reasons.org - it entails belief and science.
 
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RedBalfour

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What evidence does it point toward? I know there's a lot of unfulfilled prophecies, and unless that temple is re-built, then Revalations isn't happening.
And what's to say the Qu'ran isn't also as true as the bible? Or the teachings of the Buddah? Or the stone tablets or Norse Myth?
Everyone's got phisical evidence, the bible is just of a hundred holy books, scriptures or tablets that people have derived thier faith from.

But I use Wikipedia, becuase i'm modren ;)
 
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Sketcher

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(Sorry, i didn't know this was jewish OT)
What exactly was Baal God of? and does he count as pagan if he doens't have any Gods around him?
Baal was a god of nature. His idols would depict him with a lightning bolt in his hand. He was not the only god that pagans in that area worshiped at the time.

I dont think the ammount of priests the god brought has much to do with anything
There's the advantage of prayer in numbers, as well as the sheer amount of people making it easier for Baal's side to cheat.

and there's always the chance someone made the passage up.
And what if I told you Thor was made up? You've got quite the double standard here.

i do, in certain circumstances believe that people can proform an act of magic or divine power, but that guy should have been burned at the stake right away. Thou shalt not tolerate a witch.
Witches get their power from demons or false gods. Prophets, as Elijah was, get their power from God almighty.
 
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Digit

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Hi RedBalfour,

I remember talking to you. :)

So, a few questions.
1. Why do many chrisitans find the idea of multiple Gods so hard to comprehend?
We don't, or at least I don't. In fact the concept of multiple gods is pretty easy to imagine, it's at the heart of nearly all mythology and some of my favourite fantasy worlds like AD&D are based around there being multiple gods.

2. Why do you only believe in one God?
Because that is what the Bible has taught me to believe in, and I find the concept true in my experience with my Christian walk and my faith.

and 3. Who is this (Christian) God person anyway?
He actually has a name, yet I cannot recall how to spell it correctly. Or at least, a name that the Jews called Him. Who is He? You know who He is, the Christian God, our Creator and Father of all mankind. If you want to know more about Him, there is a whole collection of books that talks about Him and His actions.

Digit
 
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RedBalfour

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBalfour
and there's always the chance someone made the passage up.

And what if I told you Thor was made up? You've got quite the double standard here.
Not realy, there's always the chance he is made up. But I believe that if he is made up, he's just another thunder god in a different costume, much as Baal may have been another God. Much as i think God may be another God of similar meaning. Plus, I'll never say anythign i know is 100% proven or infalable, i'm not so arrogant as to assume that.

I remember you too Digit. Always good to see the old faces again, even if you dont remember where they're from ;)

1. I love D&D XD I suppose fantasy influence is one of the reasons i find the idea so easy, even though i was raised Catholic. I did say 'many' not all, i do know there's just as many that can accept the idea.

2. Thats the answer I like to hear. I hate it when people just say 'Because its true' - makes people sound brainwashed, rather than enlightened.

3. I think it's Yaweh, but there's always the chance he's just Allah in a different robe ;) , or vice versa.
 
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Epiphoskei

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His superiority is also a debatable point. Assume that all Gods in teh universe are real.
God, with his ability to kill 1st born children and his special "Smite the Heretic" attack, would probably lose a fight against Thor, who has a large magical hammer and control of thunder.
However, God may win against someone like Freya, who may be too busy Goddessing over poetry, love and war at the same time to even show up for the fight.
But if it came to the Norse pantheon vs God. my money's on the Pantheon every time, they've got the numbers.

Well, my God has the ability to ressurrect himself from the dead, so don't forget that particular advantage ;)
He also has the ability to calm storms, which negates any advantage storm gods have over him too...
 
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Digit

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1. I love D&D XD I suppose fantasy influence is one of the reasons i find the idea so easy, even though i was raised Catholic. I did say 'many' not all, i do know there's just as many that can accept the idea.
Fair enough, in that respect I would simply say it depends on your upbringing. If you have only ever been told there is one fruit, lets say appels, and then someone comes along and shows you a green grocers, your mind may well boggle.

3. I think it's Yaweh, but there's always the chance he's just Allah in a different robe ;) , or vice versa.
That's the one. Yeah there is always a chance, although I would expect to see mention of other names of Him in other cultures, as the Bible has a great deal to say on lineage and so forth, so I would expect to see at least some mention of another name.

That's just my thoughts on it anyhow.

Cheers!
Digit
 
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RedBalfour

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Well, my God has the ability to ressurrect himself from the dead, so don't forget that particular advantage ;)
He also has the ability to calm storms, which negates any advantage storm gods have over him too...
Resurection, its not original. Odin's done it, including teh sacrifice part. And that God who's temple was on vatican hill, who gave himself up for the sins of the world, who's followers drank bread and ate wine in memory of him and who was crucified (all before Jesus) also did it. So i think we can call resurection cheating, for now.

{quote]If you have only ever been told there is one fruit, lets say appels, and then someone comes along and shows you a green grocers, your mind may well boggle.[/quote]
You know, that's pretty wise.

I suppose if i was an imortal being i'd like to change my name often, or at least my nickname. Red is so unoriginal...
 
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Epiphoskei

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Resurection, its not original. Odin's done it, including teh sacrifice part. And that God who's temple was on vatican hill, who gave himself up for the sins of the world, who's followers drank bread and ate wine in memory of him and who was crucified (all before Jesus) also did it. So i think we can call resurection cheating, for now.

I'm fairly certain no such God ever existed. It sounds too convenient for those who want to find a pagan non-jewish source for the Gospels, and the Jesus Myth scholars certainly would have published it to death.

Ultimately, as to why I am monotheistic, God says he's the only God. He's either a liar, figment of our imaginations, or alone. The first option doesn't mesh with the morality of the teachings Jesus gave us. As to his existance, I've seen God heal the sick and drive out demons. That's more than I can say about Odin.
 
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Digit

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To be fair, at the end of the day I think the main reason people cannot accept God, is because He demands change. Odin, Baal and co. they're great, they do their thing and really they don't demand a great deal. In fact most of the gods in AD&D also don't really -demand- anything. You just almost seem to worship them, because they give you bonuses that are cool, and allow certain things. There is not real worship, it's more selfish in what they do for you, rather than what you do for them.

In this respect the Christian God can be seen as similar, as indeed He has done amazing things for us, yet there is more too it. Because He demands a certain life out of us. We cannot live by our rules, and we need to give ourselves over and trust His rules and way of life, as He wants what is best for us. This is especially hard when it goes against what has come to be our nature for us. Other gods, lets say Baal (who later became Cyric I think) in AD&D, the god of hate, you just do what you are leaning towards. You hate people and hey look! There's a god just for you! Far too convenient. For me that just reeks of a man-made god, which indeed it is.

The Christian God is not somethingI would ever have been able to come up with, even if I imagined the most benevolent and pure being, it would not be Him. Because He is so foreign to me, I find Him to be so true and relevant and real. Hence for me, there is one God only, and that is our God. :)

Digit
 
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RedBalfour

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I'm fairly certain no such God ever existed. It sounds too convenient for those who want to find a pagan non-jewish source for the Gospels, and the Jesus Myth scholars certainly would have published it to death.
I was under the impression it was quite well known. He had wings and was often mistaken for a Eros or a cherub, if that's any help.

The first option doesn't mesh with the morality of the teachings Jesus gave us
Maybe not Jesus' taught morality, but the bible's got some pretty unmoral sounding stuff in it. And if you dont know what i'm talking about, you'll have to read it again.

As to his existance, I've seen God heal the sick and drive out demons. That's more than I can say about Odin.
So you've SEEN proof of divinity? Makes two of us. But of course, i'm only seeing the work of demons. I've seen and felt the presence of Gods, and you may have too, but what's to say we're not both right?

I've chosen to worship the Gods i worship because thier worshipper criteria suits my morality. (I wish i got bonuses though, that'd be very cool) So if Yaweh's demands are to follow his moral code, i suppose i've just done what my Gods wanted me to do, without being asked. I suppose your next paragraph explains that in a way. But what's to say that still isn't divine? Maybe the Gods moved in after evolution started and appointed themselves head of an emotion or event? or what's to say us just believing in them doesn't make them real? the thoughts of several trillion humans throughout history, focused on various Gods 'n' Goddesses, surely there's some power in that?

Actualy, I think the christian God is the first thing I'd come up with if i was making up religion. Something that does everything and is always good? it just sounds too simple, too easy, to unreal. How can it do everything? how can it always be good? - we see he isn't always good on several occasions.

I'm much more partial to believing in something that seems real to me. A God who goes off to work in the morning, comes back to his wife and kids, gets angry, gets drunk...i'd rather put my faith into something human than something totaly benevolent. There's always the chance someone can get in the way of said benevolance and is thunderbolted for 'A greater good'
whereas a human-type God would probably sod the greater good and be compasionate. or at least say something better than 'greater good' - how evil does that sound?
 
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