Why not Rome?

[RadixLecti]

1. Salvation - is by grace through faith alone. I absolutely reject a works-based righteousness.

2. Marian doctrine - Immaculate conception specifically. Assumption as well.

3. Devotions to saints as if they are somehow omnipotent/omniscient.

4. Papal infallibility. Unbiblical/unhistorical.

5. Development of doctrine and the acceptance of traditions that go against Scripture. Scripture should be the supreme authority.

6. Sacrificial nature of the mass. Including the doctrine of transubstantiation which "overthrows the nature of a sacrament" and to me - clearly goes against the decree of the Council at Jerusalem:



What I agree with in Anglicanism:

1. Orders of clergy - bishop, presbyter, deacon - no unbiblical law against a married clergy.

2. Scripture is guiding rule of faith - though tradition and reason are also considered.

3. Sacraments - Eucharist remains a mystery and is not explained in outdated philosophical terms.

 

[luckyfredsdad]

I certainly agree with you. Our EO (and OO) brothers and sisters would say that we separated from the Roman Church a bit late. In many ways we are closer to the EO than to the Roman Church or to the reform churches (well at least that's true for the non-Calvinists among us).

I have always thought that the Anglican Church at its base is no more than
the Catholic Church in England,[or wherever]. Trying to translate this in modern terms, I would claim that the Anglican Church is the Western Orthodox Church!
A few years ago at a seminar, I heard an Orthodox Bishop explain, that Orthodox means,'Correct Belief,". In a discussion regarding Anglican orders, the point put by this Bishop was that whilst he had no real objections to Anglican orders as the basis for them was explained to him, what was important was the belief held in and by our Church! As I understand it our faith is that of the First thousand years, It is modern innovations such as Roman medievalism and Reformation Calvinism, as exemplified in some columns. ( ' the non-Calvinists among us' ).[/QUOTE] That is the source of our troubles, initially when calvinists were `admitted', under Eliza, it was thought that a good hard winter would see off the older ones, whilst the younger people would be converted to the traditional [reformed,] faith! In fact they were of sterner quality as our history as shown.They exist even today.
Yet the Church still holds to the traditional faith of Christ and the Apostles, the Church of God in England has not changed its beliefs. It is that Calvinist and Roman alike distort them and ignore tradition, all to the detriment of the Body of Christ!
For me, these people are not Traditional Anglicans! They are indeed Neo Anglicans! No more than that!

 

[JasonV]

I'm actually in the "Old Catholic" camp. I like it there because the congregations meet in garages and the people aren't your average everyday folks.

But I'm weird like that.

Oh and I don't believe in Church...I just believe in Jesus.

 

[mark46]

Somehow when Jesus put his hand upon his heart and said "on this rock/cornerstone/foundation I will build my Church", I think that he had an actual Church in mind, in addition to all the prayer groups and home bible groups that we have.

I'm actually in the "Old Catholic" camp. I like it there because the congregations meet in garages and the people aren't your average everyday folks.

But I'm weird like that.

Oh and I don't believe in Church...I just believe in Jesus.

 

[CJtheCatholic]

Hey everyone, thanks for the fantastic replies to the thread!
I've been on quite the faith journey as of late! I am going to say, straight out....uh, I still don't know exactly where God is calling me to. Quite aggravating, but it's also quite a mystical journey too. I honestly love attending Episcopal Mass/Eucharist service. The people are without a doubt THE most loving Christians I have ever met, the priests are fantastic, loving people as well, etc. I have felt the Spirit there. Plus, I didn't go but to one service and was invited to Christian fellowship with them in groups (something VERY lacking in the RCC).
Saying that, I love the Catholic FAITH. I just don't have a great love for many Roman Catholic dogmas, laws, etc. For example, I have given serious prayer and consideration to a call to the priesthood. But, I'd love to get married. In the Anglican communion: no problem at all. In the RCC: Huge problem (of course you all know that lol). The simple fact of the matter is I don't agree with priestly celibacy at all. Jesus and Paul are clear in the Scriptures, at least to me, that it's a personal choice. It's NOT an obligation to anyone who wants to serve the church. Paul really defended celibacy, and he thought it was the best way to live. But even he made it clear it wasn't absolute law or binding on anyone, including bishops and presbyters/deacons.
Anyway, there are many other things...but I won't bore you guys with the details. I simply put, don't have the slightest clue on what to do.
Pray for me please...A LOT.

 

[lighthouse_hope]

Hey everyone, thanks for the fantastic replies to the thread!
I've been on quite the faith journey as of late! I am going to say, straight out....uh, I still don't know exactly where God is calling me to. Quite aggravating, but it's also quite a mystical journey too. I honestly love attending Episcopal Mass/Eucharist service. The people are without a doubt THE most loving Christians I have ever met, the priests are fantastic, loving people as well, etc. I have felt the Spirit there. Plus, I didn't go but to one service and was invited to Christian fellowship with them in groups (something VERY lacking in the RCC).
Saying that, I love the Catholic FAITH. I just don't have a great love for many Roman Catholic dogmas, laws, etc. For example, I have given serious prayer and consideration to a call to the priesthood. But, I'd love to get married. In the Anglican communion: no problem at all. In the RCC: Huge problem (of course you all know that lol). The simple fact of the matter is I don't agree with priestly celibacy at all. Jesus and Paul are clear in the Scriptures, at least to me, that it's a personal choice. It's NOT an obligation to anyone who wants to serve the church. Paul really defended celibacy, and he thought it was the best way to live. But even he made it clear it wasn't absolute law or binding on anyone, including bishops and presbyters/deacons.
Anyway, there are many other things...but I won't bore you guys with the details. I simply put, don't have the slightest clue on what to do.
Pray for me please...A LOT.

 

[RestoreTheRiver]

Hey everyone, thanks for the fantastic replies to the thread!
I've been on quite the faith journey as of late! I am going to say, straight out....uh, I still don't know exactly where God is calling me to. Quite aggravating, but it's also quite a mystical journey too. I honestly love attending Episcopal Mass/Eucharist service. The people are without a doubt THE most loving Christians I have ever met, the priests are fantastic, loving people as well, etc. I have felt the Spirit there. Plus, I didn't go but to one service and was invited to Christian fellowship with them in groups (something VERY lacking in the RCC).
Saying that, I love the Catholic FAITH. I just don't have a great love for many Roman Catholic dogmas, laws, etc. For example, I have given serious prayer and consideration to a call to the priesthood. But, I'd love to get married. In the Anglican communion: no problem at all. In the RCC: Huge problem (of course you all know that lol). The simple fact of the matter is I don't agree with priestly celibacy at all. Jesus and Paul are clear in the Scriptures, at least to me, that it's a personal choice. It's NOT an obligation to anyone who wants to serve the church. Paul really defended celibacy, and he thought it was the best way to live. But even he made it clear it wasn't absolute law or binding on anyone, including bishops and presbyters/deacons.
Anyway, there are many other things...but I won't bore you guys with the details. I simply put, don't have the slightest clue on what to do.
Pray for me please...A LOT.

May God bless your humble and teachable spirit, and guide you to your place in His Holy Church, soon.

Michael

 

[RestoreTheRiver]

I'm actually in the "Old Catholic" camp. I like it there because the congregations meet in garages and the people aren't your average everyday folks.

But I'm weird like that.

Oh and I don't believe in Church...I just believe in Jesus.

Jason,

As different as we are on many things, I have the honor and privilege of being the vicar of an Anglican church that meets in a store front. It does make it easier to remember that the church isn't a building!

Michael

 

[mark46]

I have recently moved from the Cathoic Church to the Anglican Church.

When you say you have a love for the Catholic FAITH, to what components are you referring that are not withing the Anglican Communion? I don't see the FAITH as different, other than the additional dogmas set forth since the Reformation and the rules and regulation that you likely object to also (required celibate priesthood, not accepting the remarried into the community, and the lack of a communion open to all Christians).

Hey everyone, thanks for the fantastic replies to the thread!
I've been on quite the faith journey as of late! I am going to say, straight out....uh, I still don't know exactly where God is calling me to. Quite aggravating, but it's also quite a mystical journey too. I honestly love attending Episcopal Mass/Eucharist service. The people are without a doubt THE most loving Christians I have ever met, the priests are fantastic, loving people as well, etc. I have felt the Spirit there. Plus, I didn't go but to one service and was invited to Christian fellowship with them in groups (something VERY lacking in the RCC).
Saying that, I love the Catholic FAITH. I just don't have a great love for many Roman Catholic dogmas, laws, etc. For example, I have given serious prayer and consideration to a call to the priesthood. But, I'd love to get married. In the Anglican communion: no problem at all. In the RCC: Huge problem (of course you all know that lol). The simple fact of the matter is I don't agree with priestly celibacy at all. Jesus and Paul are clear in the Scriptures, at least to me, that it's a personal choice. It's NOT an obligation to anyone who wants to serve the church. Paul really defended celibacy, and he thought it was the best way to live. But even he made it clear it wasn't absolute law or binding on anyone, including bishops and presbyters/deacons.
Anyway, there are many other things...but I won't bore you guys with the details. I simply put, don't have the slightest clue on what to do.
Pray for me please...A LOT.

 

[Basil the Great]

CJ - Before you make the bold move of forsaking Holy Mother Church, are you aware of the Church's current understanding of the ancient EENS salvation doctrine (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus/Outside the Church, There is no Salvation), insofar as it relates to Catholics who leave the faith?

For what it is worth, my cousin switch from Roman Catholic to the Episcopal Church 27 years ago and he is quite pleased with his decision. However, I do not know if he was aware of the Church's teaching re: those who forsake the Church. I have learned that many Roman Catholics are not aware of the gravity of the salvation doctrine for those who leave the Church for another faith.

 

[AngCath]

CJ - Before you make the bold move of forsaking Holy Mother Church, are you aware of the Church's current understanding of the ancient EENS salvation doctrine (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus/Outside the Church, There is no Salvation), insofar as it relates to Catholics who leave the faith?

For what it is worth, my cousin switch from Roman Catholic to the Episcopal Church 27 years ago and he is quite pleased with his decision. However, I do not know if he was aware of the Church's teaching re: those who forsake the Church. I have learned that many Roman Catholics are not aware of the gravity of the salvation doctrine for those who leave the Church for another faith.

Not to criticize the Roman Catholic Church, but it would seem to me that this teaching is at least part of the reason people leave in the first place.

 

[CJtheCatholic]

@Basil the Great: Hey! I appreciate the comment! My answer to the question is, simply, if I am convinced that the RCC is NOT God's ultimate authority on matters of faith/believe/etc (actually, more specifically the Pope), and if other churches such as the Anglican communion and Lutherans and Orthodox have valid apostolic succession and are true churches of God too and part of the one holy catholic church (just not ROMAN Catholic), then, honestly, the statement by the RCC isn't worth the paper it's written on.
Besides which, I find it disturbing when some men can write a statement saying who can and cannot be saved, especially in the matter of fellow Christians, who are washed in the blood of our Blessed Lord by their faith. Only God knows who are His, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[mark46]

I apologize in advance if I seem harsh. The problem is that there is so much good in the faith and traditions of the RCC.

It is this legalism and presumption of sovereignty that has convinced so many that the RCC is not the ONE holy catholic and apostolic church.

We often talk of RCC legalism only in terms of the infallible statements of the pope. Much more is involved as we see. The surety that no one who leaves the RCC is saved is not an infallible statement of the pope. IMHO, this is an example of Roman legalism at its worst (well perhaps not worst).

Ther level of this presumption is pretty incredible upon examination. Not only is the Holy Spirit not within those who leave the RCC. The Holy Spirit does not speak to or lead those in OO, EO, Anglican and Lutheran churches. IMHO, the soverignty of God to choose who he will is absolute.

We will not be given a catechism test at the gates of heaven; neither will we be asked where we last went to church as a member in good standing with man's rules.

@Basil the Great: Hey! I appreciate the comment! My answer to the question is, simply, if I am convinced that the RCC is NOT God's ultimate authority on matters of faith/believe/etc (actually, more specifically the Pope), and if other churches such as the Anglican communion and Lutherans and Orthodox have valid apostolic succession and are true churches of God too and part of the one holy catholic church (just not ROMAN Catholic), then, honestly, the statement by the RCC isn't worth the paper it's written on.
Besides which, I find it disturbing when some men can write a statement saying who can and cannot be saved, especially in the matter of fellow Christians, who are washed in the blood of our Blessed Lord by their faith. Only God knows who are His, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ContraMundum]

It all depends how big the boundaries of the "church" are as to how you interpret "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation". "Traditionalists" always have an absurdly narrow view of that and the rest of the Church seems to have a rather broad view of it.

 

[Basil the Great]

It is strange that it takes a non-denominational Protestant to explain the dangers of the RCC salvation doctrine to a Catholic who is thinking of leaving the safety of Mother Church. Be that as it may, it just seems to me that it is important that this issue be raised and explored a little. It is not my intent to persuade one way or the other. It is only my intent to offer information on the most important topic of salvation.

Re: the comment about no infallible statements by Popes to back up my warning. Well, none exist in recent centuries, but we do have the three infallible decrees from the Middle Ages which still stand.

Re: the comment that perhaps the narrow interpretation of the salvation doctrine is one reason why members leave the RCC, well, perhaps a very small reason, but in all honesty, I suspect the doctrines re: birth control and divorce would be the two main reasons. Truth be told, the current RCC salvation teaching is much more tolerant towards Protestants and Orthodox and Muslims and Jews, than the salvation teaching of Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestantism is towards Catholics and Orthodox and Muslims and Jews. Unfortunately, this tolerant view does NOT apply to those members of the RCC who forsake Mother Church and leave for another faith.

Now, let's be fair to the RCC. I placed a similiar post once on the Eastern Orthodox board and was informed by one of their members that the EO Church takes the same position towards it's members who forsake the EO Church, as the RCC does re: it's members who leave.

Yes, CJ, you are correct! Only God knows who will and who will not be saved.

 

[mark46]

Legalism is legalism whether espoused by the RCC, EO or by evangelicals.

We are discussing children of God, who have been baptised and confirmed through the Holy Spirit within the Roman Church. For whatever reason, they seek to continue their spiritual journey elsewhere, in another Christian Church, whose baptism the Catholic Church recognizes (so this church is also led by the Spirit).

In the end, this is a man-made legalistic rule to keep folks from leaving the Church. I would think that this would also prevent folks from joining, lest they change their minds, and be damned forever. It reminds of those in the Early Church who wanted to be baptized on their deathbeds, for the thought was that there was no forgiveness or salvation for those within the Church who commited a serious sin.

I agree that this is a serious issue. If one believes that man-made rules are what damns you, then the Roman Church might very well be one's home, and this issue is quite relevant. I am reminded of the priest in the 50's who was thrown out of the Church for preaching that there was no salvation outside the Church. Many pointed out that he should pray that he was mistaken.

It is strange that it takes a non-denominational Protestant to explain the dangers of the RCC salvation doctrine to a Catholic who is thinking of leaving the safety of Mother Church. Be that as it may, it just seems to me that it is important that this issue be raised and explored a little. It is not my intent to persuade one way or the other. It is only my intent to offer information on the most important topic of salvation.

Re: the comment about no infallible statements by Popes to back up my warning. Well, none exist in recent centuries, but we do have the three infallible decrees from the Middle Ages which still stand.

Re: the comment that perhaps the narrow interpretation of the salvation doctrine is one reason why members leave the RCC, well, perhaps a very small reason, but in all honesty, I suspect the doctrines re: birth control and divorce would be the two main reasons. Truth be told, the current RCC salvation teaching is much more tolerant towards Protestants and Orthodox and Muslims and Jews, than the salvation teaching of Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestantism is towards Catholics and Orthodox and Muslims and Jews. Unfortunately, this tolerant view does NOT apply to those members of the RCC who forsake Mother Church and leave for another faith.

Now, let's be fair to the RCC. I placed a similiar post once on the Eastern Orthodox board and was informed by one of their members that the EO Church takes the same position towards it's members who forsake the EO Church, as the RCC does re: it's members who leave.

Yes, CJ, you are correct! Only God knows who will and who will not be saved.

 

[ContraMundum]

I don't think the RCC is nearly as strict about people leaving "Holy Mother Church" as some of her members are. Likewise, I don't think the RCC is nearly as narrow in defining the boundaries of grace as some of her members are.

 

[Basil the Great]

It is estimated that 80-90% of Catholics do not accept the Church's ban on artificial birth control. I expect that probably the same percentage also reject the Church's narrow understanding of the salvation doctrine as it applies to Catholics who forsake Mother Church for another Christian faith.

 

[TomUK]

I like Kallistos Ware in the topic.

'Orthodoxy also teaches that outside the Church there is no salvation. This belief has the same basis as the Orthodox belief in the unbreakable unity of the Church: it follows from the close relation between God and His Church. ‘A man cannot have God as his Father if he does not have the Church as his Mother’ (On the Unity of the Catholic Church, 6). So wrote Saint Cyprian; and to him this seemed an evident truth, because he could not think of God and the Church apart from one another. God is salvation, and God’s saving power is mediated to man in His Body, the Church. ‘Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church’ (G. Florovsky, ‘Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church,’ in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: ‘How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!’ (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a ‘visible’ and an ‘invisible Church,’ yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say.'

 

[ContraMundum]

Good post TomUK.