Why Not Bypass Earth?

[CoderHead]

You're not seeing the point, point is that when you truly love God and truly put Him first, even before yourself, you succumb to His wishes before your own and therefore satisfied, content, and happy about what He wishes...not yourself.

Hmmm, I see. But there's not a single person on this planet who can always put God's wishes before their own. If your spirit can't do it here, will it be able to do it in Heaven?

I think I asked before (or somebody else did) but are you even the same person - in spirit - when you're in Heaven? Do you still have your personality, desires, sense of adventure, etc.? That has bearing on the above question.

 

[CoderHead]

there's not a single person on this planet who can always put God's wishes before their own

I don't know if someone will call me out on this or not but I want to clarify. If you can't always do it while you're alive here on Earth, imagine how hard it would be to do it even most of the time for eternity. Right?

 

[drich0150]

Why doesn't God simply create our souls in Heaven, bypassing the sin of Earth and punishment of Hell?

As I see it God could have simply created all of us, and a split second after our creation divided us up into those who would seek Him out and love Him, and those who would not. And Rightly send those who would not Love Him straight to Hell for the sins we would commit.

But Because we are not Omnipotent. Those even after being told that they wouldn't choose to love God, even if given a chance, would probably cry out from the injustice of being sent to Hell for something (In our mind) that we may or may not have done.. Wouldn't you?

So the Short answer to your short Question would be:

Because above all else, God is a righteous God, and He has given us this life so that we may prove to ourselves in whom we love more.. Ourselves and/or our theologies of how things should work, or God Himself...

So that on the Day of your judgment, there will be no doubt in you mind. You will be convicted by your actions or lack of them, and not what someone else (Even God) would say you would have done if given the chance.

 

[drich0150]

If you can't always do it while you're alive here on Earth, imagine how hard it would be to do it even most of the time for eternity.

That is unless while we are here on Earth we understand that being tied to this body means being a slave to sin, and upon being free from this body we are no longer bound to sin. Those who choose Jesus in this life don't want to be outside the will of God.

 

[98cwitr]

Did God create Earth from heaven's location or from Earth's bare form? I keep reading genesis over and over again and I'm not seeming to get the clear picture. It only says in genesis 1 that "the Spirit of God hovered over the waters." but I don't know what that really means.

If I could find an answer to that...I have an ultimate theory.

 

[Markus6]

I presume you've seen The Matrix. There's a part where they talk about how initially the computer set it up as a utopia - no death, no crime, no pain - and humans rejected it because it's not in our nature to accept the status quo. I thought it was a deep and (seemingly) truthful statement.

Will our nature change in Heaven (or the new Earth, whatever)? Will we not desire the kinds of things that make us happy in our present form? If not, then are we still really ourselves? Isn't it all of this that makes us us?

I just can't imagine being happy if I weren't me. Does that make sense?

I'm sticking with the new earth and I think it's important. Going to heaven is an escape from a place we weren't really meant to be in the first place. Hoping for the new earth is the perfection of that which was created good but needs redeeming.

I've seen the matrix, in fact it was essays about some of the philosophy behind the films that made me think about this stuff first.

Christians look to Jesus as the example of our own resurrection. We will be the same (recognisable, same scars) and yet changed. Incorruptible instead of corruptible as the apostle John put it.

We won't have those desires that aren't good but will still have those that are. Adventure, friends, good food, scientific discovery, all these things were created by God and are good. In the new creation they will be there but better.

Isn't that human nature? Wouldn't God have known that? What was the talking serpent doing in the Garden anyway??

Again, human nature. Why wouldn't God have moved the tree outside of the Garden, like a parent would place all of the knives out of reach? That's the part I don't understand. It was like a blatant test that He knew we'd fail.

"Oh, you're curious? In that case, let me put this thing that will cause endless suffering right in the middle of where you live."

Do you see it differently?

Yes I think it is human nature. Or the nature of rational agents that can make their own decisions. I think the Garden of Eden without the tree would have been a prison. It doesn't matter how perfect it is, without any other option it couldn't be paradise. I think the ending will be better than the beginning because of the lives we live on earth. Those who are there will have chosen to be there.

 

[98cwitr]

my thoughts on why the Devil was there in the first place was because it was after Lucifer left heaven and descended to Earth. Thus able to inhabit a creature and speak to Eve. If you think about it, Eve probably would not have thought anything of it, a talking snake just being another one of God's creations...the first assumption possibly. Why Satan was allowed to inhabit creatures (including us!) is still beyond me and my logic.

 

[Van]

Hi Coderhead, no it is not all we have. Any team player knows, when the quarterback calls the play, that is the one we run, even though some other play might be more to our liking.

You did a search to see if someone had posted this particular assertion. Game, set, match.

If I do not like it, then I should ignore it? Why not post something original, genuine, something intended to explore rather than belittle Christianity?

If you actually understood the free-will statement, then you would understand why it is necessary.

God creating us so that we could glorify Him does not indicate any "need" on God's part. Rather God created an opportunity for us to share eternity with Him. Having a bunch of pull string dolls in Heaven would not bring glory to God.

Yes, there are probably more folks in Hades than in Heaven right now. Granting the lost perfect justice reflects God's love of all mankind.

The term "free will" is code for the ability to make autonomous choices with alternate outcomes. To say a will is free when only one "choice" is available is a fiction. It simply redefines the meaning of "choice" to mean "non-choice."

We as individuals operate within a purview granted by God, we can choose between the options available, but not a possible option that does not occur to us. Lets say, during our life, God hardens our heart so that we cannot come to Jesus. No one comes to Jesus unless God allows it. So the purview of most folks seems to include the possibility of choosing to trust in Christ, but not all folks. And that opportunity might end with our death, or degraded mental ability, or the hardening of our hearts to the point the gospel makes no sense. Another door that closes is our ability to reject or forsake our faith in Jesus. Once we are born again, we lose that capacity. But we can still sin big time. And yet, that "opportunity" also closes when our born again spirits are united with our glorified bodies, so that we are free at last from presence of sin. But our character, that chose God when the door was open, has not been turned into a pull string doll. We just do not have the capacity to sin.

 

[CoderHead]

God creating us so that we could glorify Him does not indicate any "need" on God's part. Rather God created an opportunity for us to share eternity with Him. Having a bunch of pull string dolls in Heaven would not bring glory to God.

OK, that's fine. I understand that God doesn't want a bunch of mindless zombies.

But...this is really eating at me. I hear talk about Jesus' second coming and the establishment of the "new Heaven and Earth" that will be perfect and free of evil. The claim is that even in this utopia without the devil, we'll be free to make our own choices just like we do now but we won't have the desire to choose anything but God's way. How is that different? You can choose whatever you want, as long as it's what God wants. Am I missing something?

Also, why not just start out with what you're calling the "new Heaven and Earth" instead of this failed attempt that results in the eternal damnation of billions of souls? There's no reason a perfect, loving God wouldn't foresee these problems and do everything in His power (which is boundless) to prevent it. Unless God derives some sort of amusement from it. Or, unless I'm misunderstanding the definition of a perfect, loving God.

Here's how I see the "better plan" playing out:

1. Create the angels. Any angel that falls from grace is destroyed (ergo, no Devil).
2. Create the perfect Heaven and Earth (no Hell).
3. Plant the souls on this new Earth in their glorified bodies with free will intact.
4. Fellowship for eternity in a perfect utopia.

Is there anything wrong with that? No forbidden fruit, no flood, no Hell, no Armageddon. Crisis averted. Does this make sense?

I find it hard to understand how it cements faith and trust in a deity when that deity makes a mistake. If He created everything and called it "good" then why is it now "bad?"

Presumably, it pains God to have a soul reject Him and go to Hell. If that's the case, why set us up for failure? In the beginning, since God knew which souls would go to Heaven and which souls would go to Hell, why did He just not create the ones destined for Hell? It's like purposely causing suffering and pain. If the only reason some souls go to Hell is because they've allowed themselves to be deceived by the Devil, then why not have done away with the Devil before ever starting His creation? Isn't that a bit short-sighted?

I know I'm going to draw a lot of "who are you to question God's perfect plan" comments on this, but they're honest questions that have never been answered. You claim a perfect God but it clearly states in His Bible that he regretted creating the things He did. How is He perfect when He made a mistake? I need help understanding this!

 

[Markus6]

OK, that's fine. I understand that God doesn't want a bunch of mindless zombies.

But...this is really eating at me. I hear talk about Jesus' second coming and the establishment of the "new Heaven and Earth" that will be perfect and free of evil. The claim is that even in this utopia without the devil, we'll be free to make our own choices just like we do now but we won't have the desire to choose anything but God's way. How is that different? You can choose whatever you want, as long as it's what God wants. Am I missing something?

Also, why not just start out with what you're calling the "new Heaven and Earth" instead of this failed attempt that results in the eternal damnation of billions of souls? There's no reason a perfect, loving God wouldn't foresee these problems and do everything in His power (which is boundless) to prevent it. Unless God derives some sort of amusement from it. Or, unless I'm misunderstanding the definition of a perfect, loving God.

Here's how I see the "better plan" playing out:

1. Create the angels. Any angel that falls from grace is destroyed (ergo, no Devil).
2. Create the perfect Heaven and Earth (no Hell).
3. Plant the souls on this new Earth in their glorified bodies with free will intact.
4. Fellowship for eternity in a perfect utopia.

Is there anything wrong with that? No forbidden fruit, no flood, no Hell, no Armageddon. Crisis averted. Does this make sense?

I find it hard to understand how it cements faith and trust in a deity when that deity makes a mistake. If He created everything and called it "good" then why is it now "bad?"

Presumably, it pains God to have a soul reject Him and go to Hell. If that's the case, why set us up for failure? In the beginning, since God knew which souls would go to Heaven and which souls would go to Hell, why did He just not create the ones destined for Hell? It's like purposely causing suffering and pain. If the only reason some souls go to Hell is because they've allowed themselves to be deceived by the Devil, then why not have done away with the Devil before ever starting His creation? Isn't that a bit short-sighted?

I know I'm going to draw a lot of "who are you to question God's perfect plan" comments on this, but they're honest questions that have never been answered. You claim a perfect God but it clearly states in His Bible that he regretted creating the things He did. How is He perfect when He made a mistake? I need help understanding this!

I think what I've been trying to say is that, like in the matrix, humans can't accept being plugged straight into a paradise - especially not when that paradise is run by one being. We need to see the alternative, see what it's like when we're in charge not God. Having seen that, having gone through the process of living this life, we can then accept God's rule and life in paradise.

 

[CoderHead]

We need to see the alternative, see what it's like when we're in charge not God. Having seen that, having gone through the process of living this life, we can then accept God's rule and life in paradise.

What I'm saying is that all of this imperfection and suffering doesn't make me appreciate God for it. And since I cannot fathom "eternity" with my feeble human brain, the thought that I should praise God for all of His loving mercy while I'm stuck in this cesspool doesn't seem reasonable...or possible. And God knows this about me.

So has He intentionally doomed me?

 

[Markus6]

What I'm saying is that all of this imperfection and suffering doesn't make me appreciate God for it. And since I cannot fathom "eternity" with my feeble human brain, the thought that I should praise God for all of His loving mercy while I'm stuck in this cesspool doesn't seem reasonable...or possible. And God knows this about me.

So has He intentionally doomed me?

I don't know much about that...

I believe God created this world good, and although things right now aren't perfect there is still goodness and beauty here. I believe God wants to renew it all and wipe away all the stuff that makes this a cesspool. I believe he gave us a glimpse of that through the man Jesus from Nazareth and he rose from the dead to become the first bit of a brand new creation. I believe he wants us to join with his son Jesus in making a start on making this world a better place through love, hope and by spreading the grace of God. And I believe God loves you and he wants you in this thing he's doing and working with him in it.

 

[CoderHead]

I don't know much about that...

I'd like to find someone who is. God has been silent on the issue.

 

[Van]

Hi Coderhead, why are you repeating again the same argument you made in the opening post? You are simply saying if a person lacks the capacity to sin, they are mindless zombies. It is as if you do not realize the idea is absurd. Lets say you are devoted to math, you love math, and you know how to do math correctly. So when you solve a math problem, you follow the rules. Does this make you a mindless zombie? Lets say there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. And you are able to choose the right way every time. Does this make you a zombie? At its core, your argument boils down to a desire to be destructive, to error, to make things more difficult. There is nothing wrong with working hard, striving to build something, and having the results produce the reward you deserve.

It is our time during our physical lives where we choose to follow God or not. The folks who enter heaven all made the choice to follow God, to do what is right and pleasing to God. You have made your choice, and want to apply your decision tree to those who chose to follow God.

Next, you add it another play from the atheist playbook. God created our life sustaining environment and called it very good. This means it suited His purpose. It does not mean a person might not experience pain, suffering and death. If these support God's purpose, then from God's perspective, they are "very good."

And next, you drag out a version of the doctrine of "Omniscience" which is unbiblical, and avoid biblical omniscience which is defined as God knows everything He has chosen to know. Since God did not choose to know who would commit to Christ, our decision is not foreordained, and therefore as God's word states, He placed life and death before us and begged us to choose life - "be reconciled to God."

And then lasted you drag out the last of your usual suspects you rounded up for this post, God regretted making man. How many times has this been rebutted? Why not post something original? Why was God "sorry?" Because of man's sin. So God was reacting to the behavior of man, which was God's plan prior to creation. Therefore, the creation of man was not a mistake. Did God wipe mankind from the face of the earth? Nope. He saved eight in an ark, creating an illustration of the ark of Christ whereby any one who trusts in Christ can be saved.

 

[CoderHead]

You are simply saying if a person lacks the capacity to sin, they are mindless zombies.

No, I think that's what was being said to me. Remember the "pull-string doll" comment? It wasn't mine.

It is as if you do not realize the idea is absurd. Lets say you are devoted to math, you love math, and you know how to do math correctly. So when you solve a math problem, you follow the rules. Does this make you a mindless zombie?

No, but I feel like what I'm being told is 2 + 2 = 5 and I keep coming up with 4. There's no reason for me to "do it like everyone else" and come to 5 when I'm positive the answer is 4 and everything in my experience tells me it's the most viable answer.

At its core, your argument boils down to a desire to be destructive, to error, to make things more difficult. There is nothing wrong with working hard, striving to build something, and having the results produce the reward you deserve.

I'm not following you here. My argument was simply that I don't personally feel God's love by being placed in a miserable Earth where I have to work my rear-end off for everything.

It is our time during our physical lives where we choose to follow God or not. The folks who enter heaven all made the choice to follow God, to do what is right and pleasing to God. You have made your choice, and want to apply your decision tree to those who chose to follow God.

I'm not "applying" anything to anybody. I'm asking why God behaves irrationally and creates a world of suffering, thinking that people will be grateful to Him for it. If I punched you in the face, would you thank me?

Next, you add it another play from the atheist playbook.

Oh, yeah, that's what I'm doing. I'm pulling things out of a book of standard questions and answers...could you try to be a little bit more condescending? I'm not sure you got your point across.

God created our life sustaining environment and called it very good. This means it suited His purpose. It does not mean a person might not experience pain, suffering and death. If these support God's purpose, then from God's perspective, they are "very good."

But now He's calling it "bad" and is going to destroy it. You don't even see what I'm saying. He creates it, calls it "good" and then lets it rot so He can destroy it all - even though He called it "good" when He created it. If it's good and it suits His purpose, why is He destroying it and starting over?

And next, you drag out a version of the doctrine of "Omniscience" which is unbiblical, and avoid biblical omniscience which is defined as God knows everything He has chosen to know. Since God did not choose to know who would commit to Christ, our decision is not foreordained, and therefore as God's word states, He placed life and death before us and begged us to choose life - "be reconciled to God."

I think you need to talk to your fellow Christians. They don't necessarily agree with you. The Bible says God numbered the hairs on your head before you were ever born. It doesn't say God chose to know how many hairs would be on your head. Do you have backing for your interpretation?

And then lasted you drag out the last of your usual suspects you rounded up for this post, God regretted making man. How many times has this been rebutted? Why not post something original? Why was God "sorry?" Because of man's sin. So God was reacting to the behavior of man, which was God's plan prior to creation. Therefore, the creation of man was not a mistake. Did God wipe mankind from the face of the earth? Nope. He saved eight in an ark, creating an illustration of the ark of Christ whereby any one who trusts in Christ can be saved.

How has it been rebutted? The Bible says the Lord was grieved that He had made man. How am I to interpret that? God didn't wipe mankind from the face of the Earth because he saved Noah and his family. But God did wipe all others - who didn't find favor in His eyes - from the face of the Earth, presumably in the hope that those were the only wicked people and from that point on it would only be those who were "righteous." But that didn't work, because after the flood there was just as much wickedness as before. Please explain this to me, because being condescending and sarcastic isn't helping, OK?

 

[98cwitr]

Coder, it's to set examples for us...it's not that God didn't know, it that we could possibly recognize where we went wrong and to see sin for sin.

btw, Im in IT, what language do you code?

 

[CoderHead]

btw, Im in IT, what language do you code?

C# at the moment. I'm just glad not to be writing Java anymore.

 

[ebia]

This has had me wondering for a long, long time and I haven't really found an answer that satisfies my question.

The short version:
Why doesn't God simply create our souls in Heaven, bypassing the sin of Earth and punishment of Hell?

The long version:
God creates us because He loves us and wants to have a relationship with us, which - with our obedience and faith - ends with us worshiping in His presence in Heaven. This being His goal, why not skip over all of the turmoil, sin, forgiveness, sacrifice, and pain in this temporal existence and just create our souls in Heaven where He ultimately wants us to be? Is there any benefit whatsoever in putting us on Earth for ~80 years where we can totally screw things up and jeopardize our eternal life? And if we just popped into existence in Heaven with no intermediate steps, wouldn't we both (humans and God) be better off for it?

I suppose where this really stems from is my disbelief that an all-loving, perfect God would go through such a painful and inefficient process for arriving at a goal that would be so much easier to attain with fewer moving parts and less margin of error. It makes zero sense.

You are right. The reason it makes zero sense is because that's not what the Judeo/Christian story is all about.

The biblical story is that God created the world very good but because of human choice it has gone wrong. It still is good, but broken. So God has acted through the call of Abraham, the story of Israel, and the life, death and resurrection of Jesus to put creation right, and to put us right in and for that creation. That 'putting to rights' still has to be completed and the final resurrection - we live in that latter part of the story, when creation has been put right in principle but not completely in practice.

It's not about escaping to heaven or falling to hell, but about creation being redeemed, healed and restored to continue as it always was intended to.

 

[98cwitr]

^^^I think we are still skipping around his org. question...what's the point of Earth in the first place...why not just heaven? I don't have the answer, so I would say pray about it. I'm continent in my current reality

C# at the moment. I'm just glad not to be writing Java anymore.

aw come on man...java is the only lang. I really enjoyed. I did vb and .NET for a while, but now im in administration and just use vbscripts and batch files

 

[CoderHead]

I think we are still skipping around his org. question...what's the point of Earth in the first place...why not just heaven? I don't have the answer

I don't either. That's why I asked. There has to be something that makes sense to the average person. All of the poetic talk of redemption just confuses me more because it can't be quantified or compared to anything tangible. I wonder how many people who recite it actually understand it as well...?