Why Not Bypass Earth?

[CoderHead]

knowing all the miracles He did, how he fulfilled all the Old Test. prophesies about Him

I don't want this to be a sticking point, but...all we know of his miracles is what's recorded in an ancient book. They didn't leave a mark on the world, and even though he told his disciples that they would do similar things, it seems to have died out with them nearly 2,000 years ago. Why can nobody do these things now? I won't even address faith healing, etc.

As for the prophecies...how difficult is it to fulfill prophecies when they're written down for everyone to read? The prophecies of the anti-Christ have been said to have come true three times already, with no clear indication that at any time it was true. Some people are now calling Obama the anti-Christ. Do you think he is? As far as I can see, it's business as usual. Again, not trying to flat out be a naysayer, but these are the things I think about.

Supposing a well-read book contained a "vision of the future" and I made it my life's work to see it come true, does that make the book divinely inspired when I accomplish my goal? I think not.

 

[CoderHead]

Ask yourself "Why would I have a child?"

I have two sons. I love them dearly. I don't regret bringing them into the world. But I can honestly say I have no idea why I ever wanted kids. Seriously, I've thought about it. I really don't know, and I know that I will never have another one.

if yes, ask this "Would you try to raise that child to the best of your ability?"

Of course I do. I tend to their needs, nourish them physically, mentally and emotionally, and try to set a good example for them as to what it means to be a responsible, compassionate adult. I comfort them when they're scared or hurt, I laugh with them when they're happy, and I cry with them when they're sad. I'm there for them whenever they need me.

then ask yourself "Would I do if they disobeyed me when I gave them the right instructions on how to live."

I admonish them and let them know with compassion and reason why they were wrong to have done what they did. I relate it to how it affects others in their lives and how it hurts them to break people's trust. Sometimes I have to dole out harsh punishment that even I don't like. But when it's over, and they're sorry, I let them know they're forgiven because I love them.

What if they kept ignoring you, talking back to you, disobeying you even with what is, in your mind, on the verge of getting arrested for child abuse...what if they left you all together to live their own life without your consent or blessing and left on bad terms...

you'd be pretty ticked, right? But you would still love them, wouldn't you?

Yes. I'm dealing with an adolescent right now - pushing the envelope, finding limits, rebelling to find his identity. Of course it upsets me, and of course I still love him.

My point is if I look at God like a literal Father...which He is, it really puts things into a clearer perspective.

And I understand that's the Biblical view. But what I'm saying is if God is my father, then he's either ignoring me, hiding from me, or has left a long time ago. He doesn't have the role in my life that I have in my children's. He doesn't nourish me, comfort me, or chastise me. I feel like an orphan.

I'm pretty sure that your reasons for possibly wanting to have a child are kinda close to the same reasons why God created the Earth in the first place...

And I think that my reasons (or lack thereof) for having children may be part of why I don't understand God's reasons for creating the Earth. I don't want my children to have to grow up in this. I'm a better parent than to be under the illusion that all of the things I teach them will keep them from getting hit by a stray bullet from a gang fight, or run over by a drunk driver. I teach them so they'll be good adults, but I have no guarantee they'll even make it that far. And it upsets me that God has made...this.

 

[CoderHead]

Interferes is not the right idea. YHWH is not the distant god sometimes interfering, but constantly and intimitely involved in the ordinary as well as the exceptional.

I realized as soon as I had posted that the word "interfered" wasn't the right word to use. I guess what I'm trying to convey is that if God is intimately involved in the world, His presence isn't obvious. For humans, I really think that's a big deal.

What makes you think he is hiding.

Because I spent four years of the most difficult period of my life earnestly seeking Him and never found Him. i called out and was never answered. I wasn't asking for anything material, I just wanted that relationship and never got it. Nothing at all. From that point, I believe, my faith and fervor went into remission.

That by coming at the climax of the story, by drawing the forces of evil upon himself and letting them do their worst - and coming out the other side he defeated them once and for all.

I see your point but don't share your view. I find it hard to explain, but the concept of Jesus - and that of the Trinity - just doesn't work for me.

 

[98cwitr]

almost everything you said is how God tries to deal with us. I don't think you took my point about disobedience to it's full extent though.

Things God's children have done, specifically, in defiance:
1. Burned down God's house (imagine you kid literally burning down your home...what would you do?)
2. Raping and murdering people
3. Consistently lying to your face about everything
4. Saying your not his father at all and saying you don't even act like one (where it is valid or not, let's imagine your son saying that to you...and you loving him how you do)


How far exactly would you go for your child? To what extent would you try to save them from the life they have created for themselves. I know what you are thinking: "My children are raised better than that. I have taught them better and I think I am a better father than to let my kids do something like what he just listed out." Bold statement, and you are probably right...but you've got two kids, each with his own mind and thoughts. Whose is to say they will not be adversely affected by some kids at school? Or at church! (where I learned to smoke for the first time, ha). Or on a family vacation? So many places for temptation to sink in. Being a good father you might keep your eye out for this, but not wanting to smother you kids and loving them enough for them to think for themselves can and will lead to them disagreeing with you.

To further put this into perspective, God has had billions, if not trillions of children...you any good with probabilities? And to really put it into perspective, the first time temptation reared it's ugly head was when God only had two children...same as you. I'm sure by now you see where I am going with this.

I want to have kids because (and these reasons as I am a single, childless man) I want more meaning to my life and existence than just myself. I want something to come of me that I love more than myself. You may say: "Then just get married." Well, that's great and all, but what is a marriage without a child, an honoring a wife who may or may not want one is also another factor to consider. I tread in thin waters here. I do not know what it is like to be a father and you do, so think about it next time you are going to bed...or driving to work. Maybe it will put some things into perspective for you.

Oh, and I don't think God is the Biblical Father more than I think of Him as my personal Father. It all fits when I look at it that way. Blessings, Coder.

 

[freeport]

This has had me wondering for a long, long time and I haven't really found an answer that satisfies my question.

The short version:
Why doesn't God simply create our souls in Heaven, bypassing the sin of Earth and punishment of Hell?

The long version:
God creates us because He loves us and wants to have a relationship with us, which - with our obedience and faith - ends with us worshiping in His presence in Heaven. This being His goal, why not skip over all of the turmoil, sin, forgiveness, sacrifice, and pain in this temporal existence and just create our souls in Heaven where He ultimately wants us to be? Is there any benefit whatsoever in putting us on Earth for ~80 years where we can totally screw things up and jeopardize our eternal life? And if we just popped into existence in Heaven with no intermediate steps, wouldn't we both (humans and God) be better off for it?

I suppose where this really stems from is my disbelief that an all-loving, perfect God would go through such a painful and inefficient process for arriving at a goal that would be so much easier to attain with fewer moving parts and less margin of error. It makes zero sense.

And yet there are books and movies you watch all the time - and surely have seen - and without good and evil there would be none.

So, what, exactly, would there be?


Nothing.


Then, people go, "Well, the author must be bad because there is going to be a non-Hollywood ending". But, does God tell you that ending before you are there? Can God who is of Heaven and you who is of earth not hide that from you?


You tell me.

 

[ebia]

I realized as soon as I had posted that the word "interfered" wasn't the right word to use.

Fair enough.

I guess what I'm trying to convey is that if God is intimately involved in the world, His presence isn't obvious. For humans, I really think that's a big deal.

But is it not obvious because it is hidden, or not obvious because we are unable or unwilling to see?

Because I spent four years of the most difficult period of my life earnestly seeking Him and never found Him. i called out and was never answered. I wasn't asking for anything material, I just wanted that relationship and never got it. Nothing at all. From that point, I believe, my faith and fervor went into remission.

::nods:: For that I have no answer.

I see your point but don't share your view. I find it hard to explain, but the concept of Jesus - and that of the Trinity - just doesn't work for me.

I don't know your story, but I would suggest that is true for many because they come at the story of Jesus with such culturally engrained preconceptions about God (whether they are are Christian or not) and try to fit Jesus into that picture. Even most Christians take "Jesus is God" to be a statement that tells them about Jesus, but it doesn't work that way around. It is, however, far from easy to turn one's viewpoint upside-down.