Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

[Ophiolite]

I guess in the end those that do want to believe the truth of Genesis and creation
simply do not want to.
Pity.
To choose a lie over the truth may well have dire consequences.
But each person is responsible for their themselves in matters of salvation.

I guess in the end those who choose not to apologise for false accusations simply don't want to.
Pity.
But each person is responsible for themselves in matters of politeness.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Ok. I'll do my best.

Debating and talking, tossing things around is a good thing. But we must be teachable. Able to set aside preconceived notions long enough to honestly consider another 's perspective.

I agree, but alas, people are very stubborn. You know not the pain of trying to explain to a person with the flexibility of pencil lead that Homo sapiens is not the only species that exists, and that the definition of species doesn't demand that organisms with that label be intelligent. I wish I was just giving a hypothetical example, but no, that was a real experience of mine.

If we can not, then the religious box of our indoctrination will make us (them) outright reject new perspectives...in error. If God doesn't fit into the box and it challenges ones belief system, then rejection (without honest consideration) comes in and the pride of intellect then veiled (or outright) insults...and no edification is possible.

I would say that most of the atheists on here are open to the idea of deities existing. However, people on here tend to give very weak or absolutely no evidence for their existence. I have perhaps the lowest standard of evidence for this, but even I have to say that the beauty of a sunset is not evidence for the existence of any deities (yes, people do push the "look around you" argument a lot).

Those guys are here. Over educated. I won't respond to them. I got one snarky guy on ignore now because that's all he has is snarks.

I find it best to laugh at the snarky-ness of the people on here rather than bothering to put anyone on ignore. If one wishes to ignore their posts, they can simply not read them. Besides, with people quoting their posts in responses, it's not like you won't be seeing their posts anyways.

You don't seem to be like that. We may not see eye to eye on some things, but you're...reasonable and open minded.
I (no one) has all the answers...and you ask pretty good questions.

Thanks for saying that. Here's hoping for some nice conversations with you in the future

 

[PsychoSarah]

I guess in the end those that do want to believe the truth of Genesis and creation
simply do not want to.
Pity.
To choose a lie over the truth may well have dire consequences.
But each person is responsible for their themselves in matters of salvation.

Comment: I am not an atheist by choice. I have been trying to gain belief for 9 years. My choice is to be a theist, and yet, I can't force myself to believe something that hasn't met my minimal standard of evidence. I couldn't force myself to believe in a god any more than I could force myself to believe in the boogeyman.

 

[pshun2404]

SArah you stated "10 years for Triops means that about 173 generations of them will pass. To put that into perspective, it takes more than 2500 years for humans to have that many generations pass. Furthermore, I am putting them under the most extreme natural selection pressures possible from generation 2 onward. Unless the mutation rate of Triops is exceedingly low, it is entirely possible for the morphology of these organisms to change so much that they are unrecognizable by the final generation."

But if nature and natural selection has not changed them into another creature in 100s of millions of years what makes you think this 10 year period will have such an effect? Try something other and do not waste your time on this. I like you, and appreciate your vigor, but triops are still triops even after all this time by natural means...only the intervention in nature by an outside intelligent force (by design such as inserting new sections into their normal genome) could do it...and what would that prove?

Read more about them at Homepage Klaus-Peter Kelber

 

[PsychoSarah]

SArah you stated "10 years for Triops means that about 173 generations of them will pass. To put that into perspective, it takes more than 2500 years for humans to have that many generations pass. Furthermore, I am putting them under the most extreme natural selection pressures possible from generation 2 onward. Unless the mutation rate of Triops is exceedingly low, it is entirely possible for the morphology of these organisms to change so much that they are unrecognizable by the final generation."

But if nature and natural selection has not changed them into another creature in 100s of millions of years what makes you think this 10 year period will have such an effect?

An excellent question, pshun. The reason why Triops haven't changed much in tens of millions of years (variable by species) is because they are already tough suckers to kill. In fact, they were virtually unaffected by multiple mass extinctions just because their eggs can be dormant for decades and still hatch, and because they can reproduce 3 different ways (sexually between 2 individuals, self fertilize, and through parthenogenesis (parts of their bodies that are broken off heal, and the severed portion becomes a new individual)), populations are easily reestablished even if only a few individuals survive.

In short, Triops didn't change because their life cycle opted them out of the need for change. However, my experiment changes that. They can't allow the "bad times" to pass before reemerging in the experiment.

Try something other and do not waste your time on this. I like you, and appreciate your vigor, but triops are still triops even after all this time by natural means...only the intervention in nature by an outside intelligent force (by design such as inserting new sections into their normal genome) could do it...and what would that prove?

I actually was drawn to Triops BECAUSE they have remained unchanged for so long. Should this experiment result in a drastically different experimental population from the control group, it will demonstrate that Triops didn't remain unchanged for so long because they can't change. There simply wasn't any pressure to change that impacted them. I mean, why would a population start to change color when they already perfectly blend in with the sand at the bottom of the pond?

Also, something to clarify; Triops have changed genetically over time. They've simply remained morphologically similar for millions of years. Some of their populations don't even reproduce the same way (some populations are actually gendered rather than hermaphrodites), so the species labels are actually liable to be changed a bit fairly soon.

 

[Divide]

I would say that most of the atheists on here are open to the idea of deities existing. However, people on here tend to give very weak or absolutely no evidence for their existence. I have perhaps the lowest standard of evidence for this, but even I have to say that the beauty of a sunset is not evidence for the existence of any deities (yes, people do push the "look around you" argument a lot).

I have a theory...That if there was really no God, then there'd be no atheists! I suspect that most atheists, are simply mad at God for...whatever. Question: How can you be an atheist, and not believe in evolution? That strikes me as a bit odd. Refreshing, but odd.
I will push the "look around you" argument. To me, God's fingerprints are everywhere. Step outside, look around...See the trees? See how much they resemble a blood circulatory system? Wow. Similarly, the photos we see occasionally of the brain and it's uh, neural pathways (?) and stuff? Just like trees, branches everywhere.

I find it best to laugh at the snarky-ness of the people on here rather than bothering to put anyone on ignore. If one wishes to ignore their posts, they can simply not read them. Besides, with people quoting their posts in responses, it's not like you won't be seeing their posts anyways.

Yeah, I know. And you're right. The problem for me though, is that all my life I have been a real S**t-talker. Offend me, it's on...Why you...blah blah blah. So my natural instinct to respond in kind is pretty automatic. It's something that I'm working on. So to read their post and their snark would automatically give me a response that isn't nice. Being a little impulsive, it's pretty easy to answer too fast and say the wrong thing.
That's the first guy I've put on ignore. I mean, just because he's always a butt-head...doesn't mean that I have to be. So I tried the ignore feature. When he posts, I only see a message, "You have this member on ignore, click here to see his post" That's kinda cool. Many times my posts are geared towards other believers and when non-believers post a crack in effort to demean me, it's prolly best I don't even see it or put their crap into my head. I wasn't talking to them anyway.

Thanks for saying that. Here's hoping for some nice conversations with you in the future

Agreed. Even if we don't see eye to eye, the fact that we can talk without put downs and show mutual respect to each other, is a huge plus. I like that. You show yourself to be having some class on this board.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I have a theory...That if there was really no God, then there'd be no atheists! I suspect that most atheists, are simply mad at God for...whatever.

Actually, that's an incorrect stereotype that atheists like me can't stand. Do you not worship Vishnu because you hate Vishnu? Of course not, you simply don't believe Vishnu exists.

Question: How can you be an atheist, and not believe in evolution? That strikes me as a bit odd. Refreshing, but odd.

You may have misinterpreted me at some point down the line, given that I am an evolution supporter. Did you mistake my willingness to test the theory for me being against it? Theories are made to be tested, even if the testers don't doubt the reliability of the theory at all. There's always room for improvement! And if my test results didn't fit in with the theory, that's also fine! As long as it isn't the result of some mistake on my part, I would have no issue with running an experiment that produced evidence against evolution. The expansion of human knowledge is always a work in progress.

I will push the "look around you" argument. To me, God's fingerprints are everywhere. Step outside, look around...See the trees? See how much they resemble a blood circulatory system? Wow.

You mean the veins in the leaves... which are a part of the plant version of the circulatory system? Because I assure you, trees with all their branches don't look like a human circulatory system at all; more like the branches of the pulmonary system, in a loose sense.
Circulatory system

Similarly, the photos we see occasionally of the brain and it's uh, neural pathways (?) and stuff? Just like trees, branches everywhere.

Uh... the different cells in the nervous system don't even have their axons and dendrites physically touch, so, no, not like branches. Here, I'll post a picture of the pulmonary branches in the lungs, to show you that those really do look like tree branches quite a bit:

Yeah, I know. And you're right. The problem for me though, is that all my life I have been a real S**t-talker. Offend me, it's on...Why you...blah blah blah. So my natural instinct to respond in kind is pretty automatic. It's something that I'm working on. So to read their post and their snark would automatically give me a response that isn't nice. Being a little impulsive, it's pretty easy to answer too fast and say the wrong thing.

I had a similar problem, and let me tell you, forcing myself to respond nicely to people on this site, regardless as to my personal feelings about their posts, has worked wonders for helping to fix that problem in real life. The forced changes in discussion habits on here eventually began to leak into my speaking habits with people in person. The nice thing about posting on here is the fact that you can type out your snarky response, look it over, and edit it to not be snarky before posting. You can rethink what you want to say, and how other people will view it. It makes being considerate a lot easier.

Plus, people can't go horribly far in the insult department. I mean, I got banned from this site for over the month because I was calling people dinguses. Although, I have seen the Christians on here get away with some verbal abuse from time to time.

That's the first guy I've put on ignore. I mean, just because he's always a butt-head...doesn't mean that I have to be. So I tried the ignore feature. When he posts, I only see a message, "You have this member on ignore, click here to see his post" That's kinda cool. Many times my posts are geared towards other believers and when non-believers post a crack in effort to demean me, it's prolly best I don't even see it or put their crap into my head. I wasn't talking to them anyway.

There are plenty of areas on this site that are Christian only. If your posts are mostly just for other believers, why not make them in those subforums? No snarky atheists there to burst your bubble.

 

[pshun2404]

Though you are 100% correct that it is not "because they can't change." Because they can and they do. The problem is in what one expects to see with such change. Production of varieties with different characteristics IS expected, but the level of morphological change evolutionists (not evolution itself) would have predicted has been proven false by nature itself. But they cannot admit it!

The idea that "There simply wasn't any pressure to change that impacted them" is a misnomer. You could never devise (by you as an outside intelligent force) any more "natural pressures to change" than nature has pressed upon them as a species in over 200,000,000 years. In fact you nor I can even conceive of all the various pressures that they been exposed to and have endured without any change in the kind of organism that they are...triops...(outside of new varieties, just like cats and bats, and so many others).

I do wish you luck but sincerely hope that when the 10 years is completed and all you have are still triops, you will at least admit to yourself (though you would never be allowed to publish the truth) that all that this exercise actually demonstrates is that all it can and does produce is new varieties of the same creature and nothing more. In other words, to thine own self be true and do not allow the accepted presupposition to have to re-explain the conclusion. Let the actual data speak for itself. I am no Prophet but I KNOW you will start and end with triops unless you intervene with intelligently designed unnatural selection or gene splicing or some other intelligently designed impact.

If you just look at what all nature actually shows us in the record of time in all categories you will see that IN NATURE speciation and natural selection have ONLY produced varieties of the same organisms. And that over millions of years with far more natural pressures than we humans can conceive...

 

[Waggles]

Why is it a lie, and not just wrong?

and @Ophiolite and @PsychoSarah

7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers,
and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire
and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whosoever works
abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 21:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
Revelation 22:

1 To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.
O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory
above the heavens.
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies,
that thou might still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou have ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visit him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou made him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passes through the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
Psalm 8:

 

[Ophiolite]

and @Ophiolite and @PsychoSarah

7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers,
and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire
and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whosoever works
abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 21:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
Revelation 22:

1 To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.
O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory
above the heavens.
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies,
that thou might still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou have ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visit him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou made him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passes through the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
Psalm 8:

Waggles, you still haven't acknowledged that your statement that my post was "Complete Rubbish" was a false assertion. I really don't find any value in listening to people who don't acknowledge their errors even when reminded. One has no sure way of telling if they are talking truth, partial rubbish, or complete rubbish. Go in peace. I'm done with you.

 

[Speedwell]

and @Ophiolite and @PsychoSarah

7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers,
and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire
and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whosoever works
abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 21:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
Revelation 22:

1 To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.
O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory
above the heavens.
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies,
that thou might still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou have ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visit him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou made him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passes through the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
Psalm 8:

That's all very well, but it does not explain why the theory of evolution is a lie--an intentional falsehood--rather than just wrong.

 

[Waggles]

Waggles, you still haven't acknowledged that your statement that my post was "Complete Rubbish" was a false assertion.

That's because it was not a false assertion.
Your posting was illogical and of the most convoluted arguments I have read for some time.

As someone well versed in Judaism he would have understood that the creation passages in Genesis were not meant to be taken literally.

Nonsense. Assertion and speculation. Illogical as Spock would say.

Jesus was there when the universe was created and the scriptures claim that this world and all
that it contains pertaining to life was also created by Jesus.
So why would Jesus think Genesis 1 to be allegorical?

Genesis 1 states, more rightly declares, that Light came upon the world.
That this light separated darkness from the light.
Here already we are getting references to other scriptures that reinforce this spiritual
revelation.
Light = God = truth = Word = the way = righteousness = life
Darkness = Satan and Co. = rebellion = sin = disobedience = lie = death

Genesis clearly states that the light [of God] sustained all plant life on Earth before the
creation of our Sun and Moon, and other stars.
That is not allegorical. That is a direct challenge to the "wisdom" of men in creating their
own explanations for existence and life.
From the beginning God already knew all about Darwin, and his aficionados, who would zealously
promote a lie against the word of God.

13 For thou has possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works;
and that my soul knows right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Psalm 139:

 

[Waggles]

That's all very well, but it does not explain why the theory of evolution is a lie--an intentional falsehood--rather than just wrong.

Evolution and Darwinism are lies directly opposing and contradicting the word of God.
Genesis 1 states, more rightly declares, that Light came upon the world.
That this light separated darkness from the light.
Here already we are getting references to other scriptures that reinforce this spiritual
revelation.
Light = God = truth = Word = the way = righteousness = life
Darkness = Satan and Co. = rebellion = sin = disobedience = lie = death

Genesis clearly states that the light [of God] sustained all plant life on Earth before the
creation of our Sun and Moon, and other stars.
That is not allegorical. That is a direct challenge to the "science" of men in creating their
own explanations for existence and life.
From the beginning God already knew all about Darwin, and his aficionados, who would zealously
promote a lie against the word of God.

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Proverbs 8:

 

[Ophiolite]

That's because it was not a false assertion.
Your posting was illogical and of the most convoluted arguments I have read for some time.

You stated that my post was "Complete Rubbish". You later agreed with one of my statements in that post. That means it was not complete rubbish. I already explained this to you. Please don't play dumb, it is not attractive behaviour.

However, since you are deteremined to be dishonest consider us done here.

 

[tas8831]

You are nuts to presume so much about me,

I did not presume, I concluded based on what you actually write.

and Chuck Missler. Chuck was seriously highly educated and in the business world for 30+ years before going into ministry and did more research in a day than you have in a lifetime.

You are nuts to presume so much about me - but great job employing the fallacious appeal to false authority to rescue Missler the minister.

Tell us all - what does being in Business for 30 years have to do with Missler the minister making ABIOGENESIS PROBABILITY CALCULATIONS???

Calculations that you ADMIT that you know nothing about?

Project much?

My poor memory does not invalidate his work.

Your poor memory invalidates using his unsupportable claims as an argument.

Neither does your P'shawing him with your narrow minded view.

So, if I, with 30 years in biology, proclaim that the bible is false, you will simply accept my pontification? Or does your blind allegiance only apply to people with 30 years of irrelevant experience if they provide you with more confirmation bias ammunition?

I KNOW that such calculations are garbage - even when produced that people that should know better (like Fred Hoyle).

 

[tas8831]

I notice that some of the best teachers are attacked the most and the fiercest from the people who are the most threatened by them, lol.

LOL!

I notice that among those here, only creationists are so easily duped by flock-fleecing charlatans with irrelevant backgrounds.

Chuck's no dummy.

Prove it.

Even if I am and some others here are.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Waggles]

Genesis clearly states that the light [of God] sustained all plant life on Earth before the
creation of our Sun and Moon, and other stars.
That is not allegorical. That is a direct challenge to the "science" of men in creating their
own explanations for existence and life.
From the beginning God already knew all about Darwin, and his aficionados, who would zealously
promote a lie against the word of God.

Stop avoiding the real problem you and others have concerning the truth of the scriptures
and of God as Creator against your unbelief.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Though you are 100% correct that it is not "because they can't change." Because they can and they do. The problem is in what one expects to see with such change. Production of varieties with different characteristics IS expected, but the level of morphological change evolutionists (not evolution itself) would have predicted has been proven false by nature itself. But they cannot admit it!

So participate in my experiment, then. You just need to pick 2 out of 6 traits listed to vote for, it's so easy!

The idea that "There simply wasn't any pressure to change that impacted them" is a misnomer. You could never devise (by you as an outside intelligent force) any more "natural pressures to change" than nature has pressed upon them as a species in over 200,000,000 years. In fact you nor I can even conceive of all the various pressures that they been exposed to and have endured without any change in the kind of organism that they are...triops...(outside of new varieties, just like cats and bats, and so many others).

Their life cycle literally demands that all the adults of the previous generation die before the next generation can even hatch, because the adults will gobble up any babies, even their own, that they find. Since the eggs can wait out decades of environmental change, and the environment they require is pretty bare bones, it's not outrageous to conclude that rather than change, they just wait until the environment is suitable for them again. I think the Australian species was actually discovered thanks to atypical flooding of the continent within the past couple years.

However, there is 1 challenge that Triops clearly have not faced; very acidic conditions. Triops can survive conditions with a pH between 6-10. If I so desired, I could try to push them towards tolerating acidic water.

I do wish you luck but sincerely hope that when the 10 years is completed and all you have are still triops, you will at least admit to yourself (though you would never be allowed to publish the truth) that all that this exercise actually demonstrates is that all it can and does produce is new varieties of the same creature and nothing more.

Ha, publish my experiment I am doing mostly out of frustration and spite? I'm pretty sure posting my results on a public forum along the way would disqualify it from publishing anyways.

In other words, to thine own self be true and do not allow the accepted presupposition to have to re-explain the conclusion. Let the actual data speak for itself.

No worries, I am going to do that.

I am no Prophet but I KNOW you will start and end with triops unless you intervene with intelligently designed unnatural selection or gene splicing or some other intelligently designed impact.

No gene splicing or forced mutation here, but I am utilizing artificial selection so I don't have to make the Triops suffer from less than ideal conditions for the sake of an experiment. I work on this principle: animals can be used for experiments, but their pain and suffering should be minimized as much as possible.

Also, I probably will still have Triops by the end, I'm expecting the production of a subspecies or new species, not a new genus. It's just 10 years, yeesh. Although, it is possible that, by chance, my experimental population will have an alteration in the trait for which the genus is named; the presence of 3 eyes at the top of the head.

It'd be so cool if I could get them to be purple; come on mutation lottery!

 

[tas8831]

I have a theory...That if there was really no God, then there'd be no atheists! I suspect that most atheists, are simply mad at God for...whatever.

How condescending and ignorant.

Are you mad at Odin? Must be - that is why you don't believe in his power and authority.

 

[tas8831]

Still no evidence for creation of ID.

Just ranting and dissembling and burden shifting.