Why no evidence FOR creation/ID?

[tas8831]

Who said they did?

you.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Then how could you ever conclude it occured?

Faith?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Worthless to who? They self evidently not worthless to an awful lot of people.

Worthless to those people who actually care about rational justification for believing certain claims.

Worthless to those people who find it important to be able to distinguish what is accurate from what is not.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The fact that you're asking this shows it.

We wouldn't be here if Adam had nothing to eat.

As Adam Clarke put it:

It appears that God created every thing, not only perfect as it respects its nature, but also in a state of maturity, so that every vegetable production appeared at once in full growth; and this was necessary that man, when he came into being, might find every thing ready for his use.

Assumed conclusions are not particularly impressive or convincing as an argument.

 

[AV1611VET]

Assumed conclusions are not particularly impressive or convincing as an argument.

What would impress or convince you guys?

Dying on a cross and coming back to life?

 

[tas8831]

Nice un-cited copy paste (i.e., plagiarism).

EXPLAIN IT.

Does not prove anything since you are guessing. To be fair there was no common ancestor in the first place. It is all fiction with no more basis in reality then winged Pegasis. The link was provided and i could add to them. Your link show an anonymous person. We don't know who he is or his medical history. It is not subject to scrutiny or independent investigation. It is all faith. No where near convincing. From the previous link.

For the sake of argument, let us assume that evolutionists are correct and a distant human ancestor with 48 chromosomes did evolve into a new species with 46 chromosomes via the chromosome 2 fusion event. Did this event occur in a single individual or simultaneously in an entire population? Mutations of this nature are certainly rare, but they do occur occasionally. However, the probability that this mutation would occur simultaneously in multiple individuals is so staggeringly low that we can assume its impossibility. At best, the mutation occurred in a single individual. How then was it propagated from one individual to his or her offspring and eventually to every human? Chromosomal rearrangements of this nature are not easily passed to offspring. When mutations of this magnitude occur, they pose serious problems for an organism when the process of gamete production occurs. Gametes are the egg and sperm cells used to form a new individual during sexual reproduction. The process of generating gametes is a special form of cell division known as meiosis. During this process, a specific alignment of chromosomal pairs always occurs and is essential for meiosis. This alignment is dependent on the near-identical structure and sequence of chromosomal pairs. If an individual carries a mutation such as a chromosomal fusion, then he or she will often be unable to produce gametes, because meiosis will fail to occur properly due to improper alignment of the now non-identical chromosome pairs. Today, we know chromosomal fusion to be one cause of infertility. In some cases, meiosis can find a way to complete despite non-identical chromosomal pairs. However, the gametes that result, or the offspring produced by fertilization with these gametes, usually have a short lifespan due to genetic problems. Problems associated with chromosomal alignment lead to spontaneous miscarriages and genetic abnormalities such as Down’s Syndrome.

A third problem with the hypothesis of a chromosomal fusion in human ancestry lies in the complete absence of humans with 48 chromosomes. If it were true that a chromosomal split occurred in human evolution, then two distinct human groups would have been generated: one containing 48 chromosomes which were not altered by any genetic change, and a second containing 46 chromosomes including the fusion of chromosome 2

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What would impress or convince you guys?

Verifiable evidence

Dying on a cross and coming back to life?

No, that's the assumed conclusion again.

 

[tas8831]

For the sake of argument, let us assume that evolutionists are correct and a distant human ancestor with 48 chromosomes did evolve into a new species with 46 chromosomes via the chromosome 2 fusion event. Did this event occur in a single individual or simultaneously in an entire population? Mutations of this nature are certainly rare, but they do occur occasionally. However, the probability that this mutation would occur simultaneously in multiple individuals is so staggeringly low that we can assume its impossibility. At best, the mutation occurred in a single individual. How then was it propagated from one individual to his or her offspring and eventually to every human? Chromosomal rearrangements of this nature are not easily passed to offspring. When mutations of this magnitude occur, they pose serious problems for an organism when the process of gamete production occurs. Gametes are the egg and sperm cells used to form a new individual during sexual reproduction. The process of generating gametes is a special form of cell division known as meiosis. During this process, a specific alignment of chromosomal pairs always occurs and is essential for meiosis. This alignment is dependent on the near-identical structure and sequence of chromosomal pairs. If an individual carries a mutation such as a chromosomal fusion, then he or she will often be unable to produce gametes, because meiosis will fail to occur properly due to improper alignment of the now non-identical chromosome pairs. Today, we know chromosomal fusion to be one cause of infertility. In some cases, meiosis can find a way to complete despite non-identical chromosomal pairs. However, the gametes that result, or the offspring produced by fertilization with these gametes, usually have a short lifespan due to genetic problems. Problems associated with chromosomal alignment lead to spontaneous miscarriages and genetic abnormalities such as Down’s Syndrome.

Real life:


Just one example -

Chromosomal polymorphism in mammals: an evolutionary perspective

"In conclusion, floating chromosomal polymorphisms have been reported for a variety of species although, quite clearly, there is a bias that reflects sample availability (rodents or shrews) as well as veterinary (bovids, equids and canids) and medical (human) interest....

Centric or Robertsonian fusions involve the physical joining of two acrocentric chromosomes by their centromeric regions (Robertson, 1916). Although they may be extremely rare in some species, Rb fusions are usually considered the most common chromosomal change in mammals (Qumsiyeh, 1994). They have been detected in the karyotypes of species representative of most, if not all, mammalian lineages (Ferguson-Smith & Trifonov, 2007)...."

and so on...

A third problem with the hypothesis of a chromosomal fusion in human ancestry lies in the complete absence of humans with 48 chromosomes. If it were true that a chromosomal split occurred in human evolution, then two distinct human groups would have been generated: one containing 48 chromosomes which were not altered by any genetic change, and a second containing 46 chromosomes including the fusion of chromosome 2

Non sequitur.

 

[AV1611VET]

Verifiable evidence

Well, that was nice and specific.

With answers like that, who needs questions, eh?

 

[tas8831]

Why don't you just impress us all by pulling out all that conclusive scientific evidence for a common ancestor between apes and man. That magical nonhuman creature?

Why don't you impress us and not engage in the burden shifting fallacy?

No actual real evidence for your bible-based origins claims?

 

[HitchSlap]

What would impress or convince you guys?

Dying on a cross and coming back to life?

Were you there?

 

[AV1611VET]

Were you there?

No, but you don't see me demanding evidence either.

Evidence is for sissies who are lame and can't walk by faith.

And speaking of sissies, pansies bloom in the summer and winter, don't they?

 

[tas8831]

Debunking the Debunkers | Answers in Genesis

In 2013, it was shown that the alleged interstitial telomeric repeat site of the human chromosome 2 fusion corresponding to chimpanzee chromosomes 2A and 2B of a hypothetical common ancestor was actually a second promoter in the DDX11L2 long noncoding RNA gene.

This is false. Tomkins cannot bring himself to admit his errors. The DDX11L2 gene is not actually in the fusion site as he claimed.

Additional ENCODE related data are provided in this report that not only debunk evolutionary criticism and obfuscation in response to this discovery, but solidify the original finding. New data come from epigenetic-modifications, transcription factor binding, and transcription start site information. It is also shown that the alleged cryptic centromere site, which is very short in length compared to a normal centromere, is completely situated inside the actively expressed protein coding gene ANKRD30BL—encoding both exon and intron regions. Other factors refuting this region as a cryptic centromere are also discussed. Taken together, genomic data for both the alleged fusion and cryptic centromere sites refute the concept of fusion in a human-chimpanzee common ancestor.

So weird then that we much evidence to the contrary of Tomkins' bold assertions.

I especially like the fact that the ANKRD30BL gene is also found near the centromere in chimp chromosome 2b -the same region we find it in the human human chromosome 2.

Jeffy didn't mention that, did he?

I do not trust Tomkins' claims at all. I witnessed his antics when it came to the DX gene as well as his sleight-of-hand regarding human-chimp DNA sequence similarity.

But by all means - EXPLAIN what Tomkins claims, show us all how YOU know that the claims are correct.

Copy-pasting creationist essays is grand and all, but if YOU do not know whether or not what they are claiming is accurate or truthful, why do you bother?[/b]

 

[PsychoSarah]

What would impress or convince you guys?

Dying on a cross and coming back to life?

I've given examples of what I would consider to be an indisputable miracle, my favorite example being a single physical text that anyone can read, even the illiterate, and get the same message out of. I don't mean symbolically, as a text that had been translated into many languages, I mean as a singular physical book. It need not have any profound message within it, it could be a bad recipe for chocolate pie for all I care.

However, if someone just claimed this book once existed but was destroyed, or currently existed but was lost, there'd be no way for me to tell if the miracle actually occurred or not. Since such a thing is so unlikely, I'd end up treating the story as a work of fiction until proven otherwise.

 

[SkyWriting]

How do you know?

Other stories in scripture regarding the Creation account
and stories about Jesus show "finished" works, ready for
immediate use.

• 1Types and motives
  • 1.1Cures
    • 1.1.1Blind people
    • 1.1.2Lepers
    • 1.1.3Paralytics
    • 1.1.4Women
    • 1.1.5Other healings
    • 1.1.6Other
  • 1.2Exorcisms
  • 1.3Resurrection of the dead
  • 1.4Control over nature
• 2List of miracles found outside the New Testament
• 3Setting and Interpretations
  • 3.1Cultural background
  • 3.2Traditional Christian interpretation
  • 3.3Liberal Christianity
  • 3.4Non-religious views
• 4Gallery of miracles
  • 4.1Cures
  • 4.2Power over demonic spirits
  • 4.3Resurrection of the dead
  • 4.4Control over nature

 

[AV1611VET]

I've given examples of what I would consider to be an indisputable miracle, my favorite example being a single physical text that anyone can read, even the illiterate, and get the same message out of. I don't mean symbolically, as a text that had been translated into many languages, I mean as a singular physical book.

You mean a singular text, written in a language that all nations and tongues can understand, without going through a translator?

 

[tas8831]

And Thalidomide is an example of intelligent design?

Human design, yes. Thalidomide actually had/has a number of uses. The unfortunate side effects during fetal development do not detract from its other legitimate uses.

Of course, that humans design things should never be used as an analogy to the Intelligent Design put forth by shady creationists.

 

[HitchSlap]

No, but you don't see me demanding evidence either.

Bingo!

Evidence is for sissies who are lame and can't walk by faith.

Evidence is for sane, reasonable people, who seek to know reality.

And speaking of sissies, pansies bloom in the summer and winter, don't they?

And ignorance is perennial.

 

[AV1611VET]

Of course, that humans design things should never be used as an analogy to the Intelligent Design put forth by shady creationists.

Intelligent Design is a joke.

But I wouldn't call those who believe in it and defend it "shady."

 

[AV1611VET]

And ignorance is perennial.

... You got good comebacks!