Why must the alternative to heaven be hell?

[Ken-1122]

Because the awfulness of their sin warrants such a punishment. "Missing the mark" sounds so innocuous, so...unintentional.

That’s because often it is! Not everything classified as sin is evil.

God is adamant about our sin, however. It is wickedness to which only eternal punishment is an appropriate response and He will not relent in this judgment.

Then why did he have us born in sin if he wanted us to behave perfectly? He should have made us perfect don’t cha think?

It is the human desire to "self rule" that is the fundmental source of sin. It is the same root evil that motivates the devil and his angels. Self rule defies God's rightful place as the Sovereign Ruler of All;

Then why did God put us on this planet above all other life forms where we are forced to self rule? It’s not like God sits in heaven and dictates everything we do!

God is holy and just and must therefore punish evil.

When you punish your children, do you torture them?

How do you know this? You'd have to have an intimate knowledge of a great many people to say this with such certainty. It is not possible that you could have such knowledge.

The point is; Christians have not cornered the market on morality. There are other people of other faiths or no faith at all who are just as righteous as Christians.

No, sin or wickedness is not merely a matter of a lack of information; it is, in part, the contravention of an innate moral sense God has given to all of us. Everyone knows that betrayal, murder, and theft are wrong; everyone knows that torturing babies for fun is evil; everyone knows eating your neighbor is wicked. All humans have an innate sense of the Golden Rule, which God has instilled in them. Appealing to ignorance, then, as an escape from responsibility for one's sin just doesn't fly.

Is worshiping another God a sin? How about a person born in Kuwait or Singapore, and the only religious texts they have access to is the Koran, or the Vedas? Maybe they believe Jesus was a prophet of Allah because the religion they were raised in taught them so; or maybe they never heard of Jesus because he isn’t mentioned in the Vedas? If these people live righteous according to the only religion they know, is that such an atrocity that warrants torture? I mean how much of a Christian would you be if you were raised in one of these countries?

And it is the very presence of our innate moral sense that reveals God. He isn't hidden from anyone; people just don't want to acknowledge He is there.

Then where is he?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

no...God is God. He made a place (yes, Hell is created) where He simply removes His presence from and when we turn our back on Him and decide to put self first, God allows us to live with that choice...

It seems to me either God is not omnipresent, or Hell is not a place where God is not because; if Hell exists and God is not present in Hell, then by definition he is not omnipresent. Right???

K

 

[razeontherock]

Hell is simply the place where God is not

Please reconcile with this for our OP:

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].

 

[jpcedotal]

Please reconcile with this for our OP:

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].

Sheol, the disembodied state

this is to be understood of the grave, in which sense the word is often used; the lowest parts of the earth, as opposed to heaven; the grave is a bed to the saints, where they lie down and rest, and sleep till the resurrection morn, Job_14:12; and here the Lord is watching over and keeping their dust, and will raise it up again at the last day. (Gill)

"Hell" is Sheol (not hell), the region of the unseen and unknown. God is there. (McGee)

Descending into the lowest imaginable depths among the dead, there should we find the Lord.

Hell - If I could hide myself in the lowest parts of the earth. (Wesley)

 

[elman]

It seems to me either God is not omnipresent, or Hell is not a place where God is not because; if Hell exists and God is not present in Hell, then by definition he is not omnipresent. Right???

K

If God is all powerful, God can chose to not be somewhere.

 

[elman]

Did I say Jesus was a demi-god half breed? or are you just trying to put words in my mouth. Jesus was born perfect and sinless. Were we? That's the point I'm trying to make.

Yes we were born sinless--not guilty of sin. We destroy our own soul with our own sin. We are not responsbile for the sin of anyone other than ourselves. Ezekiel 18.

 

[elman]

Hell is simply the place where God is not and the kicker is each person chooses to be there...God just allows one's choice to be granted.

Hell is very real and the descriptions in the Bible are literal.

Which description in the Bible is true? The lake of fire, the bottomless pit, the outer darkness, or death? I think the only description of hell that is literal and true--is death. The bible defines the lake of fire as the second death. The wages of sin is death. Jesus came that we might have life everlasting. The good news is through Jesus we have victory over the grave--death.

 

[elman]

Not everything classified as sin is evil.

Ken

Sin and evil are the same thing--failure to love. Not every sin is a sin unto death, but some are. First John.

 

[Ken-1122]

If God is all powerful, God can chose to not be somewhere.

True he can choose to not be omnipresent. But did he?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes we were born sinless--not guilty of sin. We destroy our own soul with our own sin. We are not responsbile for the sin of anyone other than ourselves. Ezekiel 18.

Okay so are you saying man was not born in sin and shaped in iniquity?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Sin and evil are the same thing--failure to love. Not every sin is a sin unto death, but some are. First John.

So it is not a sin to worship another God, or no God at all?

K

 

[aiki]

Because the awfulness of their sin warrants such a punishment. "Missing the mark" sounds so innocuous, so...unintentional.

That’s because often it is! Not everything classified as sin is evil.

For instance? And, says who?

God is adamant about our sin, however. It is wickedness to which only eternal punishment is an appropriate response and He will not relent in this judgment.

Then why did he have us born in sin if he wanted us to behave perfectly? He should have made us perfect don’t cha think?

He has made a way for us to be "perfect" in standing before Him if not in actuality. God clothes us in the perfect righteousness of Christ when we by faith accept Christ as Saviour and Lord. Our sin, then, does not have to keep us from fellowship with God, nor does it have to condemn us to hell.

In any case, God has made us with the capacity to freely choose to embrace Him or defy Him. He didn't want puppets or robots, but creatures who could freely choose to love and obey Him. This necessarily involves the possibility that some will choose not to do so, which means that He could not have created us perfect. Perfection, at least as you seem to mean it, would preclude the ability to choose imperfectly, or to sin, which is essentially the condition of a pre-programmed robot. Besides, only God is truly perfect.

It is the human desire to "self rule" that is the fundmental source of sin. It is the same root evil that motivates the devil and his angels. Self rule defies God's rightful place as the Sovereign Ruler of All;

Then why did God put us on this planet above all other life forms where we are forced to self rule? It’s not like God sits in heaven and dictates everything we do!

Who says we are forced to self rule? We are certainly free to make a host of mundane choices without God's direct input. He doesn't weigh in on the color of our socks, or whether or not we should eat eggs or cereal for breakfast. But on a more general level He does (or He ought to be allowed to) order our values, conduct and morality.

God is holy and just and must therefore punish evil. When you punish your children, do you torture them?

God doesn't punish His children, He disciplines them. The only ones God punishes with eternal hell are those who refuse God's rightful place as Master and Commander of their lives and who live in unrepentant rebellion toward their Maker. Such people are not God's children; they are His enemies.

How do you know this? You'd have to have an intimate knowledge of a great many people to say this with such certainty. It is not possible that you could have such knowledge.

The point is; Christians have not cornered the market on morality. There are other people of other faiths or no faith at all who are just as righteous as Christians.

This doesn't matter to God. No one's righteousness is good enough for God. That is why we all need to be clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ. Without such covering one cannot enter God's kingdom.

No, sin or wickedness is not merely a matter of a lack of information; it is, in part, the contravention of an innate moral sense God has given to all of us. Everyone knows that betrayal, murder, and theft are wrong; everyone knows that torturing babies for fun is evil; everyone knows eating your neighbor is wicked. All humans have an innate sense of the Golden Rule, which God has instilled in them. Appealing to ignorance, then, as an escape from responsibility for one's sin just doesn't fly.

Is worshiping another God a sin? How about a person born in Kuwait or Singapore, and the only religious texts they have access to is the Koran, or the Vedas? Maybe they believe Jesus was a prophet of Allah because the religion they were raised in taught them so; or maybe they never heard of Jesus because he isn’t mentioned in the Vedas? If these people live righteous according to the only religion they know, is that such an atrocity that warrants torture? I mean how much of a Christian would you be if you were raised in one of these countries?

Is worshiping another god a sin? What does this question have to do with my point about our innate moral sense revealing God?

God does not punish people for their ignorance but for contravening their God-given moral sense and for refusing to seek a knowledge of Him with all their heart. The One, True God will be found of all who sincerely and assiduously pursue Him. Any Hindu, or Muslim, or Buddhist who genuinely and fervently seeks to know God as He truly is will find Him. The issue, then, isn't the beginning point of one's pursuit of God, but failing to pursue a full knowledge of God passionately and sincerely.

"All have sinned," the Bible says. And this is why all stand condemned before God. THis is an issue that transcends religious traditions. A righteous Muslim is not righteous enough to satisfy God's standard of perfection; a righteous Hindu is not righteous enough to say he is "perfect as God is perfect." Thus, God's punishment falls upon all - unless they repent and enter into fellowship with Him as their Heavenly Father through Christ.

And it is the very presence of our innate moral sense that reveals God. He isn't hidden from anyone; people just don't want to acknowledge He is there.

Then where is he?

God doesn't reveal Himself to the idly curious in the way He does to His children. There is sufficient evidence for His existence revealed in Creation and in His Word, the Bible. If one wants a personal experience of God, one must follow the narrow way God has laid out for humanity in Scripture. There is no other way. God is not hiding, but He is not personally evident to those who don't really want to know Him.

Selah.

 

[Hawkins]

Why must it be a place of torment for those who miss the mark? Seems to me God could just as easily leave hell for Satan and his angels and allow those who miss the mark to continue self ruling here on earth for eternity. Why all the torture?

Ken

The point is, how different is it between you and Satan. You are the next Satan if you choose to sin to leave God. Satan for one time was a perfect angel much better than you are now as an imperfect human. In a time frame of eternity, if a perfect angel can turn himself to Satan, so can you.

God said through Noah and in Peter I or II that He's completely incompatible with sin. He bears with our sin for a purpose of allowing satans to expose them as the satans then they will be eradicated for the purpose of buidling the New Heavens and New Earth.

 

[Ken-1122]

For instance?

The person who spends his entire life in a community where he is exposed to another God and has no reason to believe that your God is true and his God is fake; but lives as righteous of a life as any Christian. That person is NOT evil

And, says who?

Says those of us who define the term; HUMANS

In any case, God has made us with the capacity to freely choose to embrace Him or defy Him. He didn't want puppets or robots, but creatures who could freely choose to love and obey Him. This necessarily involves the possibility that some will choose not to do so, which means that He could not have created us perfect. Perfection, at least as you seem to mean it, would preclude the ability to choose imperfectly, or to sin, which is essentially the condition of a pre-programmed robot. Besides, only God is truly perfect.

You’ve got it backwards; only if you are perfect do you have the choice to behave perfectly or not; if you are imperfect (as he made us) you have no choice but to behave imperfectly. You can always perform below your potential but you are never able to perform above it.

Who says we are forced to self rule? We are certainly free to make a host of mundane choices without God's direct input. He doesn't weigh in on the color of our socks, or whether or not we should eat eggs or cereal for breakfast. But on a more general level He does (or He ought to be allowed to) order our values, conduct and morality.

And those who spend their entire lives with no access to your bible; where do they get their values, conduct, or morality?

God doesn't punish His children, He disciplines them. The only ones God punishes with eternal hell are those who refuse God's rightful place as Master and Commander of their lives and who live in unrepentant rebellion toward their Maker. Such people are not God's children; they are His enemies.

How about those who have no access to your bible; or those who do have access to your bible but are unable to believe because no matter how hard they try they are unable to get access to your God due to the fact that he remains hidden? (believe it or not many atheists such as myself used to be Christian and during their Christian years spent many of them trying to experience God but were unable to thus they gave up.

This doesn't matter to God. No one's righteousness is good enough for God.

That’s the point! No matter how hard we try it still isn’t good enough because he refused to make us perfect! Doesn’t that sound at least a little unfair to you?

Is worshiping another god a sin? What does this question have to do with my point about our innate moral sense revealing God?

Because this “moral sense revealing God’ that you speak of doesn’t exist for many of us. It may exist for you; (I doubt it but I ain’t gonna dispute your claims) but I know it doesn’t exist for me.

God does not punish people for their ignorance but for contravening their God-given moral sense and for refusing to seek a knowledge of Him with all their heart. The One, True God will be found of all who sincerely and assiduously pursue Him. Any Hindu, or Muslim, or Buddhist who genuinely and fervently seeks to know God as He truly is will find Him. The issue, then, isn't the beginning point of one's pursuit of God, but failing to pursue a full knowledge of God passionately and sincerely.

So you are telling me that a Muslim who worships Allah and only has access to the Koran, no access to the Bible; is gonna find your God this way? How is this gonna happen? Please explain.

God doesn't reveal Himself to the idly curious in the way He does to His children.

Oh so proof is only for those who already believe? Not the non-believer? We used to call that a “catch-22”

There is sufficient evidence for His existence revealed in Creation and in His Word, the Bible.

But that evidence is no more apparent to the non-believer than the evidence revealed in Creation of Vinishu and his word, the Vedas.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

The point is, how different is it between you and Satan. You are the next Satan if you choose to sin to leave God. Satan for one time was a perfect angel much better than you are now as an imperfect human. In a time frame of eternity, if a perfect angel can turn himself to Satan, so can you.
.

How different am I from Satan?
*Satan was a perfect angel; I was born an imperfect human
*Satan trys to do bad; I try my best to do good
*Satan has access to God thus he knows God exists; I have no access to your God thus I believe he does not exist.

There is more but I guess that's enough for now

K

 

[aiki]

The person who spends his entire life in a community where he is exposed to another God and has no reason to believe that your God is true and his God is fake; but lives as righteous of a life as any Christian. That person is NOT evil

According to your standard. According to God's standard, however, such a person is evil. And it is His standard that matters, not yours. As I said in my last post "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Says those of us who define the term; HUMANS

Well, HUMANS, don't all agree as to what the definition is, do they? Muslims think honor killing their wives and daughters in the street is moral. Hindus greatly encourage the immolation of widows as a righteous deed. Many people think the murder of infants in the womb is okay while others abhor such an act. And so on. It seems to me if you let humans decide what is moral and what isn't, pretty much anything ends up being permitted. In some cultures of the past human sacrifice was common as well as pedophilia and inappropriate behavior with animals. Life was very cheap, women and children were savagely abused, the sick were often abandoned. If humans are left to define morality, they soon suppress their God-given moral sense and descend into a state akin to the Lord of the Flies. Humans do a very poor job of defining morality for themselves.

You’ve got it backwards; only if you are perfect do you have the choice to behave perfectly or not

There are many people who do live, at least for some of the time, in a morally perfect way. THey follow God's wisdom and moral commands carefully and, while they may fall, do not make such occasions the norm of their existence. THese are not perfect people in the sense in which God is perfect, but, despite the influence of their sin-cursed flesh, morally-speaking they do attain moments or periods of time of perfection. It appears to me, then, that the sinful imperfection of the human condition does not totally preclude the choice or the capacity for moral perfectness.

if you are imperfect (as he made us) you have no choice but to behave imperfectly.

For those who walk in submission to God's Spirit and are empowered by Him to live righteously this is not the case.

You can always perform below your potential but you are never able to perform above it.

God imparts to any who walk with Him the ability to live above their moral potential.

And those who spend their entire lives with no access to your bible; where do they get their values, conduct, or morality?

As I have already said, from their God-given moral sense, which they may or may not allow to be diminished by cultural pressures and the inclinations of their own selfish, fleshly nature.

How about those who have no access to your bible; or those who do have access to your bible but are unable to believe because no matter how hard they try they are unable to get access to your God due to the fact that he remains hidden?

As I said, God doesn't hide Himself. That He exists is plainly evident in Creation and in the existence of our moral sense.

Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

God loves Muslims, and reveals Himself to them. - YouTube


There are many such videos on YouTube revealing how God transcends cultural and religious barriers to draw people to Himself. Perhaps you should check them out.

That’s the point! No matter how hard we try it still isn’t good enough because he refused to make us perfect! Doesn’t that sound at least a little unfair to you?

The Good News preached by the apostles is that God, through Christ, will clothe you in Christ's perfect righteousness and declare you perfect. Where is the unfairness in God extending such a gift to humanity? Where is the unfairness of God doing for us what we could not do for ourselves?

Because this “moral sense revealing God’ that you speak of doesn’t exist for many of us. It may exist for you; (I doubt it but I ain’t gonna dispute your claims) but I know it doesn’t exist for me.

Oh? Do you think betrayal is a morally right thing? How about torturing babies for fun? What about hypocrisy? Is it a morally good thing? Do you think murder is a righteous deed? How about rape? I'm sure all of these things you would regard as morally wrong. And so does everyone else! There is a universal moral law that every person innately understands. And the existence of this moral law clearly points to the existence of a Moral Law Giver.

So you are telling me that a Muslim who worships Allah and only has access to the Koran, no access to the Bible; is gonna find your God this way? How is this gonna happen? Please explain.

See the vid clip above.

God doesn't reveal Himself to the idly curious in the way He does to His children. Oh so proof is only for those who already believe? Not the non-believer? We used to call that a “catch-22”

You didn't read carefully what I wrote. I wrote, "in the way He does to His children." God reveals Himself to all in a general way through Creation but personally only to those who genuinely and deeply desire to know Him.

But that evidence is no more apparent to the non-believer than the evidence revealed in Creation of Vinishu and his word, the Vedas.

I disagree. See the Kalam Cosmological Argument or the Argument from Contingency, or the many Teleological Arguments, or the Argument for the Resurrection, or...well, you get my point, I'm sure.

Selah.

 

[Ken-1122]

According to your standard. According to God's standard, however, such a person is evil. And it is His standard that matters, not yours.

You are the one speaking for God; I’m just going with what you are telling me.

Well, HUMANS, don't all agree as to what the definition is, do they? Muslims think honor killing their wives and daughters in the street is moral. Hindus greatly encourage the immolation of widows as a righteous deed. Many people think the murder of infants in the womb is okay while others abhor such an act. And so on. It seems to me if you let humans decide what is moral and what isn't, pretty much anything ends up being permitted. In some cultures of the past human sacrifice was common as well as pedophilia and inappropriate behavior with animals. Life was very cheap, women and children were savagely abused, the sick were often abandoned. If humans are left to define morality, they soon suppress their God-given moral sense and descend into a state akin to the Lord of the Flies. Humans do a very poor job of defining morality for themselves.

And where do these humans claim to get these morals from? Yep you guessed it; GOD! Because God does not address his wishes to mankind from the clouds; humans have taken it upon themselves to speak for God by reading his holy texts and when this happens you get Honor killings, immolation of widows, human sacrifice (isn’t that a major part of your religion?) pedophilia, beastality, etc well I think you get the picture.

There are many people who do live, at least for some of the time, in a morally perfect way. THey follow God's wisdom and moral commands carefully and, while they may fall, do not make such occasions the norm of their existence. THese are not perfect people in the sense in which God is perfect, but, despite the influence of their sin-cursed flesh, morally-speaking they do attain moments or periods of time of perfection. It appears to me, then, that the sinful imperfection of the human condition does not totally preclude the choice or the capacity for moral perfectness.

Anybody can live perfectly for short periods of time; heck I can hold my breath for a short period of time! But I can’t live my entire life without breathing; and nobody is able to live their entire life perfectly. If God didn’t want me to breath he wouldn’t have designed me to breath. If God didn’t want me to sin, why did he design me with a desire to sin?

For those who walk in submission to God's Spirit and are empowered by Him to live righteously this is not the case.

Well since nobody has ever lived their entire life perfectly, I guess nobody has ever walked in submission to God’s spirit huh?

God imparts to any who walk with Him the ability to live above their moral potential.

Above our moral potential isn’t good enough; you gotta be perfect; right?

The Good News preached by the apostles is that God, through Christ, will clothe you in Christ's perfect righteousness and declare you perfect.

Well since nobody has ever been perfect I guess that has never happened huh? Are you perfect?

Oh? Do you think betrayal is a morally right thing? How about torturing babies for fun? What about hypocrisy? Is it a morally good thing? Do you think murder is a righteous deed? How about rape? I'm sure all of these things you would regard as morally wrong. And so does everyone else! There is a universal moral law that every person innately understands. And the existence of this moral law clearly points to the existence of a Moral Law Giver.

The “Golden Rule” only proves that most reasonable intelligent humans agree on the obvious. But even if it did point to God it doesn’t point to your idea of God.

See the vid clip above.

How about if you see the vid clip above and give me a rundown of what it says then we’ll take it from there

You didn't read carefully what I wrote. I wrote, "in the way He does to His children." God reveals Himself to all in a general way through Creation but personally only to those who genuinely and deeply desire to know Him.

Nature does not prove your God exist.

I disagree. See the Kalam Cosmological Argument or the Argument from Contingency, or the many Teleological Arguments, or the Argument for the Resurrection, or...well, you get my point, I'm sure.

I am not familiar with those arguments. How about if you read them and give me a rundown of what they say and we’ll take it from there.

Ken

 

[aiki]

You are the one speaking for God; I’m just going with what you are telling me.

Oh? How so?

And where do these humans claim to get these morals from? Yep you guessed it; GOD!

Not always or necessarily. You certainly won't find human sacrifice, inappropriate behavior with animals, child abuse, honor killings or widow burning urged in Scripture. None of the evil things I listed are in accord with Christianity's "love your neighbor as yourself."

human sacrifice (isn’t that a major part of your religion?)

No. Self-sacrifice is a part of the Christian faith, but not human sacrifice of the pagan sort.

Anybody can live perfectly for short periods of time; heck I can hold my breath for a short period of time! But I can’t live my entire life without breathing; and nobody is able to live their entire life perfectly.

Which is why, as I have already stated in my last post, God has offered us the gift of Christ's perfect righteousness.

If God didn’t want me to breath he wouldn’t have designed me to breath. If God didn’t want me to sin, why did he design me with a desire to sin?

Where does it say God designed you with a desire to sin? God didn't make Adam and Eve with such a desire. God has made a way for you to overcome your sin nature, which the Bible calls the "Good News" of salvation. God doesn't remove the curse of Adam and Eve's sin from us. Instead, He imparts Himself, His power, to us so that we may live righteously before Him in spite of sin's curse.

Well since nobody has ever lived their entire life perfectly, I guess nobody has ever walked in submission to God’s spirit huh?

This is like saying since Wayne Gretzky never scored every goal he attempted that he never actually played hockey. I have never offered such reasoning in my posts. As you have acknowledged, people do live in perfect accord with God's commands at times. This is something God's Spirit enables, but only as one is submitted to Him. Obviously, then, one does not have to live one's entire life perfectly in order to have submitted to God.

God imparts to any who walk with Him the ability to live above their moral potential. Above our moral potential isn’t good enough; you gotta be perfect; right?

Which is why God has made a way through Christ for us to be forensically declared perfectly righteous. This is what is known in Christian doctrine as "justification."

The Good News preached by the apostles is that God, through Christ, will clothe you in Christ's perfect righteousness and declare you perfect. Well since nobody has ever been perfect I guess that has never happened huh? Are you perfect?

You have a profound misunderstanding of basic Christian doctrine! No wonder you forsook the Christian faith! When the Bible says that we are clothed in Christ's righteousness it does not mean that we become actually perfect any more than a man who is clothed in a bearskin coat actually becomes a bear. We are declared righteous by God in a forensic sense only.

The “Golden Rule” only proves that most reasonable intelligent humans agree on the obvious.

Why is it obvious to most reasonable, intelligent people?

How about if you see the vid clip above and give me a rundown of what it says then we’ll take it from there

I have seen it - and so can you.

Nature does not prove your God exist.

I think it does.

I disagree. See the Kalam Cosmological Argument or the Argument from Contingency, or the many Teleological Arguments, or the Argument for the Resurrection, or...well, you get my point, I'm sure. I am not familiar with those arguments. How about if you read them and give me a rundown of what they say and we’ll take it from there.

I have read them and understand most of them pretty well. If you want the same knowledge and understanding, you ought to read them, too. I'm not your research assistant. If you can't be bothered to study up on these arguments for yourself, well, I guess you"ll just have to resign yourself to having a gaping hole in your understanding of the Christian worldview.

Selah.

 

[Ken-1122]

Not always or necessarily. You certainly won't find human sacrifice, inappropriate behavior with animals, child abuse, honor killings or widow burning urged in Scripture. None of the evil things I listed are in accord with Christianity's "love your neighbor as yourself."

Christianity isn’t the only religion with “scripture” and because God doesn’t address the entire world from the clouds; humans take it upon themselves to decipher which scripture is of the real God and which is not; then once they think they've figured out the real God, (which seems to vary from culture to culture) they disagree over what the real God wants vs what he does not want. That's how you get a lot of the crazyness you mentioned. Too bad he doesn't simply speak to everyone in a language that we all understand huh?

No. Self-sacrifice is a part of the Christian faith, but not human sacrifice of the pagan sort.

Jesus wasn’t human?

Which is why, as I have already stated in my last post, God has offered us the gift of Christ's perfect righteousness.

Where does it say God designed you with a desire to sin? God didn't make Adam and Eve with such a desire. God has made a way for you to overcome your sin nature, which the Bible calls the "Good News" of salvation. God doesn't remove the curse of Adam and Eve's sin from us. Instead, He imparts Himself, His power, to us so that we may live righteously before Him in spite of sin's curse.

This is like saying since Wayne Gretzky never scored every goal he attempted that he never actually played hockey. I have never offered such reasoning in my posts. As you have acknowledged, people do live in perfect accord with God's commands at times. This is something God's Spirit enables, but only as one is submitted to Him. Obviously, then, one does not have to live one's entire life perfectly in order to have submitted to God.

Which is why God has made a way through Christ for us to be forensically declared perfectly righteous. This is what is known in Christian doctrine as "justification."

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying “because we are not perfect, because we inherited the sin from Adam, because we are cursed with a sinful nature etc. etc. God has made a way for us to get around that. My point is; Why didn’t he make us perfect? Why would he force us to inherit sin from someone a million years before us? Why would he curse us with sin then punish us for sinning? Why didn't he just make us perfect from the jump?

Why is it (Golden rule) obvious to most reasonable, intelligent people?

Because unless the person is a sociopath they are going to feel bad for a fellow human being who is being treated in a way they would not wanna be treated.

I have read them and understand most of them pretty well. If you want the same knowledge and understanding, you ought to read them, too. I'm not your research assistant. If you can't be bothered to study up on these arguments for yourself, well, I guess you"ll just have to resign yourself to having a gaping hole in your understanding of the Christian worldview.

Really??? Chief! If I knew everything about Christianity; If I did not have a gaping hole in my understanding of the Christian; we wouldn’t be having this conversation! now would we. Are they religious arguments? Secular arguments? Scientific arguments? What are they and what do they say?

Ken

 

[aiki]

Christianity isn’t the only religion with “scripture” and because God doesn’t address the entire world from the clouds; humans take it upon themselves to decipher which scripture is of the real God and which is not;

Counterfeits abound in this area. I think it is possible, though, to determine the fakes from the real. Certainly, Christianity stands unique among religions in many important respects, which makes it, as far as I'm concerned, the one faith that is not false. But with all the counterfeits that there are, one must study this matter out carefully.

then once they think they've figured out the real God, (which seems to vary from culture to culture) they disagree over what the real God wants vs what he does not want.

I can't speak for other religions, but Christianity has a set of core truths that are well-established across denominational lines. Denominational differences are often more a matter of style, or cultural heritage, or organizational preferences than they are a matter of doctrine. And where doctrine is the issue, it is rarely in respect to the core truths of the faith.

That's how you get a lot of the crazyness you mentioned. Too bad he doesn't simply speak to everyone in a language that we all understand huh?

I think He has. The Bible is the most widely-translated religious text in the world.

No. Self-sacrifice is a part of the Christian faith, but not human sacrifice of the pagan sort.

Jesus wasn’t human?

Yes, he was. But he was also God. Christ is called the incarnation of God, which means that God took on human flesh in the person of Christ and sacrificed Himself on the cross for our sins. Jesus laid down his life for those who were his enemies so that they might be reconciled to God and saved from the eternal punishment of their sin. He did this willingly; for no man had the power to take his life otherwise. This is what I mean by self-sacrifice, which is starkly different from the pagan ritual of human sacrifice.

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying “because we are not perfect, because we inherited the sin from Adam, because we are cursed with a sinful nature etc. etc. God has made a way for us to get around that. My point is; Why didn’t he make us perfect? Why would he force us to inherit sin from someone a million years before us? Why would he curse us with sin then punish us for sinning? Why didn't he just make us perfect from the jump?

What would have been the point in allowing Adam and Eve to choose between obeying God and not when their choice produced no consequences? Freedom to choose necessarily entails consequences. This is a big part of why freedom of choice is so important. Although the consequences of Adam's and Eve's sin have had a profound and enduring impact upon humanity, this doesn't oblige God to suspend those consequences. The consequences of sin are always incredibly destructive and awful, which is what we see in how we are cursed because of A&E's sin. The responsibility for this curse is to be laid at the feet of A&E, though, not God. God did not create them with a disposition toward sin, only with the freedom to choose right or wrong.

God doesn't want to punish us for our sin. His only Son died on a cross to prevent such a fate for you and I. It misrepresents things to suggest that God desires to send people to hell. He has gone to extraordinary lengths to make a way for humanity to escape such a destiny.

Why is it (Golden rule) obvious to most reasonable, intelligent people?

Because unless the person is a sociopath they are going to feel bad for a fellow human being who is being treated in a way they would not wanna be treated.

And I believe, for reasons I have already explained, that this points to God.
Certainly, amoral, impersonal, natural processes cannot give rise to morality, which is all you're left with when God is ruled out.

Really??? Chief! If I knew everything about Christianity; If I did not have a gaping hole in my understanding of the Christian; we wouldn’t be having this conversation! now would we.

I assumed - reasonably, I believe - that when you said you were a Christian that you had a grasp of a certain body of knowledge that defines what being a Christian is. You don't seem to have this understanding, however, which makes your claim of being Christian very dubious to me. My apologies for assuming too much.

Are they religious arguments? Secular arguments? Scientific arguments? What are they and what do they say?

The arguments I referred to are philosophical first of all, but most of them touch upon the scientific at many points, too. For a thorough explanation of these arguments check out:

ReasonableFaith.org – Defend Biblical Christianity, Apologetics, Bible Questions

Selah.