Why must the alternative to heaven be hell?

elman

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Where I differ from Elman's POV, is I see a need for people to be "born again." I'm not sure that his stated theology accounts for that?
I agree people need to be born again, but I don't agree we can accomplish that. God does that if we repent--if we turn from wickedness to righteousness. I think when we are baptized that is only symbolic of what God is doing for us-recreating us spiritually after we distroy our spiritual existence--our soul--with our own sin.
 
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PureDose

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Thank-you for your perspective. I like your concept of Christianity better than most; it sounds much more fair.

Ken


Even if Scripture did say that people - the very vast majority of them - were going to eternal torment (as opposed to eternal destruction) God could still change his mind if they repented.


This is stated in Jeremiah for nations, "If a nation repents then I will not bring upon them the destruction I had planned". It is also a very strong theme - apparently, a hidden one - in the Book of Jonah. Jonah was given by God a message only that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days.

Jonah knew God, though, and understood God was only sending him to Nineveh to get them to repent. He did not want for Nineveh to repent, but he wanted Nineveh to be destroyed. He wanted this so bad, he ran from God and tried to escape. He was very, very angry when Nineveh did repent.

Many "Christians" are like this, they want vengeance, they want punishment.

Jesus is greater then Jonah in every way. Jonah had the faith to save an entire city, Jesus has the faith to save the entire world.

These things said, the day Jesus returns will be a day of horrible darkness and dread. The world is very, very wrong and correcting those wrongs is by no means a trivial matter -- especially not with the very hardened self-righteous.

People will be judged as they have judged, so what will happen to those who really want others to go to eternal torture? They will see that the punishment they felt was fit for others is suddenly turned onto them.

And who knows what those who severely mocked God will react with?
 
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PureDose

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I agree with him, too. But I point out he's right when he says the things we're attempting to discuss are beyond our comprehension, and what glimpses of the truth of it we get can't possibly be a complete understanding. And so I temper the phrase "hell isn't a place of ______" (Fill in the blank anyway you want)

I point out that what God has told us, that we can understand, is that "All Judgment has been given to the Son." IOW, what Jesus says, goes. Which is supremely fair! I mean, HE paid the penalty for sin, Himself, personally. If He says it's not enough in my case, who can really argue with Him about it? And if He says I need to be "tormented day and night for ever and ever," right along with the beast and the false prophet, who is in a position to tell Him He's wrong?

To which I can only say "Lord have Mercy!"

So please note the sensibility of having the defense attorney, person who paid the penalty, and the Judge all being the same Person! (Also notice that said individual would have had to die, and rise again)


The Day of Judgement will surely be a dark one, and a horrible one for all on earth.

Jesus stated that the word he spoke to us, the Holy Testimony of Christ, will be our judge on that day.

People will be judged as they have judged. They will find their secret thoughts shouted from the rooftops. They will be forced to adjust their beliefs and so their behavior so as to cease being hypocrites.

The actual verse on people being tormented "forever and ever"?

“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

It says "they will have no rest day or night". It does not say for how long that will be. It will likely be until they accept all of the judgments given to each of them individually.

It says, "the smoke of their torment will rise forever".

To be judged as one judges is not a punishment matter, such as today where we throw people in jail and they are just so often upset they were caught and do not in any way repent.

To be judged as one is judged changes people, proves to them their own hypocrisy, and forces them to change. As they do not change, the judgments will continue until they begin to live fairly with each other and to judge each other fairly and honestly.

This is to correct their wrongs which begin in their hearts.

It is not something which will be "a few days of repentance" and then "that is it", as it was with Jonah and Nineveh. Nineveh returned to sin after that generation of Jonah and was destroyed.

It will be permanent, a completely new age, no longer under Law, but under Jesus Christ where "man will be completely wiped off the face of the earth" because the old man will be done away with.

And "the Spirit will be poured out onto all peoples".

The "knowledge of God will cover the earth as water covers the seas".


Their souls, as they are, will be forever destroyed, never to return. But, what then? Surely a soul can return to God with all that it was lost? Or can it not be rebuilt?

In the parable of the workers in the field and the one talent, those who came in late got the very same pay as those who started earliest in the morning.

Not that anyone will believe any of this. No, they will cling to their evil judgments and unforgiving natures to the very end. They will keep to their harsh statements about Jesus. They will continue in their mean thoughts towards God. They will hold onto punishment and vengeance to the very end, because that is what the carnal wants. They want scapegoats. They want to be right in their own self and they refuse to be simply justified by God.

The beginning of the New Day, the true Holy Sabbath of God will surely be a most horrible one.
 
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aiki

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We don't inherit their sin; we inherit their disposition toward sin. An infant who dies doesn't go to hell. The infant is innocent before God until it understands the difference between right and wrong and chooses the latter over the former. We aren't guilty from the moment we are born because of what Adam and Eve did, but our tendency toward sin is so strong we will inevitably choose to sin and thereby become guilty. But God didn’t have to design it that way; why didn’t he design it so when Adam sined we don’t inherit the tendency towards sin? Why didn’t he make us perfect like he made Adam?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "perfect like Adam." Adam was only morally innocent - and only because he was ignorant. When he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil he lost his innocence, born of his ignorance, and discovered himself to be a sinner.

Why didn't God suspend the consequences of Adam's disobedient choice? Because, as I think I have already explained, doing so would make Adam's free choice no choice at all. We choose one thing over another precisely because of the resulting consequences of that choice. The consequence of choosing chocolate to eat rather than vinegar is that I enjoy a sweet, chocolatey taste rather than a sharp, bitter one. But if every time I choose chocolate I end up with vinegar, I'm not really making a choice between the two. The reality is that, regardless of what I choose, I will always end up with the same thing, which means I don't really have a choice to make. So, if God suspended the consequences of Adam's choice, He would be effectively emptying Adam's free choice of its value. Adam's choice would not be truly free because it would not truly be a choice. God values our capacity to choose freely. This capacity is integral to genuine love, which is what God desires from us. Consequently, He allows us to exercise free will, which, as I've explained, necessarily entails also allowing whatever consequences proceed from our choices.

Also, God is working to display His various divine attributes through the Story of Redemption. If God simply negated every bad choice we made what would we know of God's justice and holiness? What would we know of His love and mercy? All we would know is that whatever we do it will always be made to conform precisely to God's will and purposes. We would recognize ourselves prisoners to God's will, unable to do anything but what He wants. Certainly love for God would be impossible because under such circumstances it would be meaningless.

One last thing: What makes you think you would make a better choice than Adam did were you in his place in Eden? I very much doubt that if walking and talking with God, having every physical need met, being of a perfectly sound body and mind, and living in a virtual paradise did not prevent Adam from sinning, it would not prevent any of us from doing the same. Really, Adam and Eve did nothing more than anyone else would have done.

Often the destructive consequences of a person's sin ripple outward touching many others. A drunk driver kills a child crossing the street. A mugger kills a husband and father of five. An evil despot rises to power and millions die. This is the nature of sin today and it was the nature of sin when Adam and Eve made their terrible, sinful choice in Eden. We suffer because of Adam And Eve's sin, not because God is mean and harsh, but because sin by its very nature often damages or destroys the innocent as well as the guilty.
In your scenario, the child killed crossing the street and the 5 children who had their father killed are victims; and are not forced to become criminals worthy of torture; big difference.

My point was that one person's sinful choice may affect others very negatively. In this regard, my examples work very well. I was not intending that they should prove anything more.

At some point, one must let God be God, which means that He is given the freedom as God to establish things the way He wants. Do you rail against God for making gravity? Gravity has killed many people. How about water? Many people have drowned in water. What about fire? It has killed many people, too. One could go on endlessly second-guessing every little thing God has done. Why didn't God make the ground bouncy like a trampoline, or the sky orange rather than blue, or flowers as big as houses? And on and on. The only purpose I can see in this sort of thing is to legitimize defying His rule. It is a transparent attempt to justify rejecting Him. The issue isn't God so much as it is a powerful desire to be one's own boss. But God will not relinquish His rightful place as Sovereign of the Universe. One way or the other, sooner or later, you will bend your knee to Him.

Selah.
 
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Ken-1122

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I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "perfect like Adam." Adam was only morally innocent - and only because he was ignorant. When he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil he lost his innocence, born of his ignorance, and discovered himself to be a sinner.
Was Adam “born in sin and shaped in iniquity? Were we?
My point was that one person's sinful choice may affect others very negatively. In this regard, my examples work very well. I was not intending that they should prove anything more.
Intended consequences verses unintended consequences

If I were to throw a large rock in the water just to see it splash, the splash will cause waves to spread out in a 360 degree pattern and those waves could affect something in the water a distance away from where the rock was thrown. If the waves cause damage, I am at fault but that damage was an untended consequence of me throwing the rock; because it was only my intent to see the splash, not to cause harm to something else. The same with your scenario of the drunk driver who killed a father of 5; nobody gets drunk for the sole purpose of killing a person while driving, so that was an unintended consequence of drunk driving.

My issue is with intended consequences. Like when an intelligent being decides that the son’s life is going to be affected in a negative way because of the sins of the father
At some point, one must let God be God, which means that He is given the freedom as God to establish things the way He wants. Do you rail against God for making gravity? Gravity has killed many people. How about water? Many people have drowned in water. What about fire? It has killed many people, too. One could go on endlessly second-guessing every little thing God has done. Why didn't God make the ground bouncy like a trampoline, or the sky orange rather than blue, or flowers as big as houses? And on and on. The only purpose I can see in this sort of thing is to legitimize defying His rule. It is a transparent attempt to justify rejecting Him. The issue isn't God so much as it is a powerful desire to be one's own boss. But God will not relinquish His rightful place as Sovereign of the Universe. One way or the other, sooner or later, you will bend your knee to Him.

Selah.
If you are under the impression that I am suggesting that we should have a world where nobody is capable of harming themselves, we are totally misunderstanding each other. Tell me it isn’t so……
 
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aiki

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I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "perfect like Adam." Adam was only morally innocent - and only because he was ignorant. When he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil he lost his innocence, born of his ignorance, and discovered himself to be a sinner. Was Adam “born in sin and shaped in iniquity? Were we?

I think I already answered your first question above. Were we "born in sin and shaped in iniquity"? I can't think of a verse in Scripture, at least in the versions I read, that says this. We are "dead in trespasses and sins," the Bible says. It also says that "in Adam all die." Paul the apostle writes of our bodies being born in corruption, dishonor, weakness and spiritual lifelessness. But Scripture also says,

Romans 5:12
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

If I were to throw a large rock in the water just to see it splash, the splash will cause waves to spread out in a 360 degree pattern and those waves could affect something in the water a distance away from where the rock was thrown. If the waves cause damage, I am at fault but that damage was an untended consequence of me throwing the rock; because it was only my intent to see the splash, not to cause harm to something else. The same with your scenario of the drunk driver who killed a father of 5; nobody gets drunk for the sole purpose of killing a person while driving, so that was an unintended consequence of drunk driving.

Intended or not, sinful choices always produce destruction - and often upon those who were not party to that sinful choice. This is why sin is, in part, so awful, which was my sole point in offering the examples that I did. I am not willing to argue over extrapolations from my examples that I did not use the examples to support or defend.

My issue is with intended consequences. Like when an intelligent being decides that the son’s life is going to be affected in a negative way because of the sins of the father

You seem to want to abrogate any and all responsibility people (yourself included, I assume) have for the wicked things they do. More than this, you want to blame the sin of everyone upon God! Incredible! But as I have explained, when God allows us free will (which He does in order that we might truly love Him), He must also necessarily allow the consequences arising from the exercise of our free will. Does God intend those consequences of our choices that are sinful and destructive? Of course not. But He cannot give us the capacity to freely choose to do right without also giving us the capacity to choose to do wrong. We are the ones, however, who use our capacity to choose toward an end contrary to what God intends. Thus, we are responsible for our sin, not God.

If you are under the impression that I am suggesting that we should have a world where nobody is capable of harming themselves, we are totally misunderstanding each other. Tell me it isn’t so……

You don't seem to be reading carefully what I'm writing. Please show me where I suggest that we should have a world where no one is capable of harming themselves.

The choices God has made in creating gravity, fire, water, etc., create risks for us that are sometimes fatally realized. Why did God make such a dangerous world? Who knows? Could He have made a better, less dangerous world? Possibly. Regardless, this is the world God gave us and we must make the best of it. Railing against Him for not doing things the way we think He should have does nothing to change what is. In the end, your criticisms of God's methods in allowing sin into the world through Adam's choice do nothing to alter His judgment of your sin. You may use your objections as justification to turn your back on Him, but this doesn't prevent in the slightest the moment when you will stand before Him as your Judge.

Selah.


 
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Ken-1122

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I think I already answered your first question above. Were we "born in sin and shaped in iniquity"? I can't think of a verse in Scripture, at least in the versions I read, that says this.
Psalms 51:5
Intended or not, sinful choices always produce destruction
I can think of plenty of sins where nobody or nothing is harmed
You seem to want to abrogate any and all responsibility people (yourself included, I assume) have for the wicked things they do. More than this, you want to blame the sin of everyone upon God!
I blame nothing on God or anybody else; (remember who you are talking to) my crimes are my own as well as my good deeds.
Incredible! But as I have explained, when God allows us free will (which He does in order that we might truly love Him), He must also necessarily allow the consequences arising from the exercise of our free will. Does God intend those consequences of our choices that are sinful and destructive? Of course not. But He cannot give us the capacity to freely choose to do right without also giving us the capacity to choose to do wrong.
I would say unless we are free from sinning, we do not have free will. If God were to give us free will we would be able to spend our entire lives without sinning if we chose to. Since nobody is able to do that, nobody has free will.
You don't seem to be reading carefully what I'm writing. Please show me where I suggest that we should have a world where no one is capable of harming themselves.
Maybe you should read what I wrote more carefully. When you said:
Do you rail against God for making gravity? Gravity has killed many people. How about water? Many people have drowned in water. What about fire? It has killed many people, too
You seemed to be suggesting that I feel we should have a world free of obstacles that can harm us.

Ken
 
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Hawkins

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How different am I from Satan?
*Satan was a perfect angel; I was born an imperfect human
*Satan trys to do bad; I try my best to do good
*Satan has access to God thus he knows God exists; I have no access to your God thus I believe he does not exist.

There is more but I guess that's enough for now

K

So you mean that you can't be a devil after departing from God simply due to the difference you mentioned? You will be a devil after departing from God disregarding to the difference you mentioned because fundamentally there is no difference between you and Satan. You still try to be good or want to be good simply because planet earth is still a place with God's presence. In the end, you can only be good when you choose to be on God's side.

To simply put, only God's sheep can make a difference, the goats will finally make no difference from the wolves once departed from God.

Moreover, you seem to neglect the fact that there are mutual influence between different entities with freewill.

You can't be good not because you don't have freewill, it's because your free will is influence by others. You free will is influenced by the culture built upon the freewill of your ancestors. You are brought to this world as consequence of the freewill of your ancestors, including the sinning of Adam which made the whole mankind now living outside God's realm, and under the deep influence of Satan.

God however leaves us with one easy way out, He made a self sacrifice and thus we can choose to believe in Jesus Christ to make our way out of this situation.
 
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aiki

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Psalms 51:5 (NKJV)
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

It seems to me David is indicating here that he has a sinful propensity that is naturally occurring, which is in line with what I've been saying.

I can think of plenty of sins where nobody or nothing is harmed
That may be how it appears, but God says in His Word that all sin carries the penalty of death (Ro. 6:23) - temporal and eternal.

I would say unless we are free from sinning, we do not have free will. If God were to give us free will we would be able to spend our entire lives without sinning if we chose to. Since nobody is able to do that, nobody has free will.
We can be free from sinning through faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord.

Yielding to sin does not negate our free will any more than yielding to the temptation to eat a cookie when you're on a diet means you can never lose weight. People do break their diet regimens and yet are still able to lose weight, and people do yield to temptation but are nonetheless able to exercise free will.

Maybe you should read what I wrote more carefully. When you said:
Do you rail against God for making gravity? Gravity has killed many people. How about water? Many people have drowned in water. What about fire? It has killed many people, too
You seemed to be suggesting that I feel we should have a world free of obstacles that can harm us.
No, this wasn't what I was suggesting. I explained exactly what I was getting at later in the paragraph from which the above quotation is taken. I wrote:

"Why did God make such a dangerous world? Who knows? Could He have made a better, less dangerous world? Possibly. Regardless, this is the world God gave us and we must make the best of it. Railing against Him for not doing things the way we think He should have does nothing to change what is."

Railing against God for instituting the Law of Sin and Death does nothing to change the existence or influence of this law upon humanity. At some point, we must simply accept the world as God has made it and cease to complain that it is not as we would have made it. Such complaining, in the end, serves no useful, constructive purpose.


Selah.
 
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Ken-1122

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So you mean that you can't be a devil after departing from God simply due to the difference you mentioned?

Well that was all I could mention at the moment…. Wait a minute!!! Isn’t one of the natures of God “omnipresent”? You can’t depart from an omnipresent God.
You will be a devil after departing from God disregarding to the difference you mentioned because fundamentally there is no difference between you and Satan. You still try to be good or want to be good simply because planet earth is still a place with God's presence. In the end, you can only be good when you choose to be on God's side.
Okay so according to you, I spend most of my time on God’s side. Does Satan? There you go; another difference.
To simply put, only God's sheep can make a difference, the goats will finally make no difference from the wolves once departed from God.
There you go with “departing from God” again; omnipresence prevents that right?
Moreover, you seem to neglect the fact that there are mutual influence between different entities with freewill.

You can't be good not because you don't have freewill, it's because your free will is influence by others. You free will is influenced by the culture built upon the freewill of your ancestors. You are brought to this world as consequence of the freewill of your ancestors, including the sinning of Adam which made the whole mankind now living outside God's realm, and under the deep influence of Satan.
So we don’t have free will because our choices are influenced by culture, ancestors, and others? Fine! Whatever the reason, if we are unable to refrain from sinning, we don’t have freewill.

Ken
 
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Ken-1122

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Psalms 51:5 (NKJV)
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

It seems to me David is indicating here that he has a sinful propensity that is naturally occurring, which is in line with what I've been saying.
Is he saying he was born with this “sin propensity?” If so it is in line with what I’ve been saying.
That may be how it appears, but God says in His Word that all sin carries the penalty of death (Ro. 6:23) - temporal and eternal.
Yeah; but I can still list plenty of sins where nobody or nothing is harmed.
We can be free from sinning through faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord.
So are you saying once Christ frees you from sin, you can spend the rest of your life without ever sinning again?
Yielding to sin does not negate our free will any more than yielding to the temptation to eat a cookie when you're on a diet means you can never lose weight. People do break their diet regimens and yet are still able to lose weight, and people do yield to temptation but are nonetheless able to exercise free will.
Not a good analogy I’m afraid; people are able to stick to a diet and never cheat again; nobody is able to remain perfect and sinless; no matter how much they may want to.

Ken
 
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