Why must the alternative to heaven be hell?

[Ken-1122]

What would have been the point in allowing Adam and Eve to choose between obeying God and not when their choice produced no consequences? Freedom to choose necessarily entails consequences. This is a big part of why freedom of choice is so important. Although the consequences of Adam's and Eve's sin have had a profound and enduring impact upon humanity, this doesn't oblige God to suspend those consequences. The consequences of sin are always incredibly destructive and awful, which is what we see in how we are cursed because of A&E's sin. The responsibility for this curse is to be laid at the feet of A&E, though, not God. God did not create them with a disposition toward sin, only with the freedom to choose right or wrong.

You still don’t seem to get it. My issue isn’t that Adam and Eve shouldn’t have had consequences; my issue is that we shouldn’t be forced to inherit their sin! Supposed Adam messed up and broke a leg? Would all of mankind be born with a broken leg? So why is it that when he messed up and sinned we have to inherit that?

Ken

 

[dollarsbill]

Why must it be a place of torment for those who miss the mark? Seems to me God could just as easily leave hell for Satan and his angels and allow those who miss the mark to continue self ruling here on earth for eternity. Why all the torture?

Ken

Because MANY humans not only miss the mark, they rebel against God and hate Him. Big diff.

 

[Timothew]

Since annihilationism is not allowed to be discussed outside of UT, could this thread be moved to UT so that a discussion of annihilationism can take place in this thread? Annihilationism would answer the OPs question very well. But I am not allowed to discuss it here, for some reason.

 

[Timothew]

The alternative to "eternal life" is "not having eternal life".

 

[Ken-1122]

Since annihilationism is not allowed to be discussed outside of UT, could this thread be moved to UT so that a discussion of annihilationism can take place in this thread? Annihilationism would answer the OPs question very well. But I am not allowed to discuss it here, for some reason.

If the question can be answered in the UT section (what-ever that is) I will be happy to post the same question there. What is the UT section?

K

 

[Timothew]

If the question can be answered in the UT section (what-ever that is) I will be happy to post the same question there. What is the UT section?

K

I realized after I posted that that UT (Unorthodox Theology) is restricted to Christians only. Since you have a agnostic designator, they won't let you post there. And since I am an annihilationist, I can't really answer your posts here. It seems that we are like Romeo and Juliet.

 

[aiki]

You still don’t seem to get it. My issue isn’t that Adam and Eve shouldn’t have had consequences; my issue is that we shouldn’t be forced to inherit their sin!

We don't inherit their sin; we inherit their disposition toward sin. An infant who dies doesn't go to hell. The infant is innocent before God until it understands the difference between right and wrong and chooses the latter over the former. We aren't guilty from the moment we are born because of what Adam and Eve did, but our tendency toward sin is so strong we will inevitably choose to sin and thereby become guilty.

Often the destructive consequences of a person's sin ripple outward touching many others. A drunk driver kills a child crossing the street. A mugger kills a husband and father of five. An evil despot rises to power and millions die. This is the nature of sin today and it was the nature of sin when Adam and Eve made their terrible, sinful choice in Eden. We suffer because of Adam And Eve's sin, not because God is mean and harsh, but because sin by its very nature often damages or destroys the innocent as well as the guilty. This is in large part why God urges us so strongly to forsake sin and why He hates sin with such a deep, abiding hatred.

God hasn't left us to face the unmitigated aftermath of Adam's and Eve's sin. While we suffer the curse of a nature disposed toward sin, God has made a way through Christ for us to transcend that disposition and live a holy, righteous life. God hasn't abandoned us to the destructive consequences of Adam and Eve's sin.

Supposed Adam messed up and broke a leg? Would all of mankind be born with a broken leg? So why is it that when he messed up and sinned we have to inherit that?

See above.

Selah.

 

[Ken-1122]

We don't inherit their sin; we inherit their disposition toward sin. An infant who dies doesn't go to hell. The infant is innocent before God until it understands the difference between right and wrong and chooses the latter over the former. We aren't guilty from the moment we are born because of what Adam and Eve did, but our tendency toward sin is so strong we will inevitably choose to sin and thereby become guilty.

But God didn’t have to design it that way; why didn’t he design it so when Adam sined we don’t inherit the tendency towards sin? Why didn’t he make us perfect like he made Adam?

Often the destructive consequences of a person's sin ripple outward touching many others. A drunk driver kills a child crossing the street. A mugger kills a husband and father of five. An evil despot rises to power and millions die. This is the nature of sin today and it was the nature of sin when Adam and Eve made their terrible, sinful choice in Eden. We suffer because of Adam And Eve's sin, not because God is mean and harsh, but because sin by its very nature often damages or destroys the innocent as well as the guilty.

In your scenario, the child killed crossing the street and the 5 children who had their father killed are victims; and are not forced to become criminals worthy of torture; big difference.

K

 

[elman]

You still don’t seem to get it. My issue isn’t that Adam and Eve shouldn’t have had consequences; my issue is that we shouldn’t be forced to inherit their sin! Supposed Adam messed up and broke a leg? Would all of mankind be born with a broken leg? So why is it that when he messed up and sinned we have to inherit that?

Ken

We don't. We are created like Adam, spiritually and physically alive. If we die spiritually it is because of our own sin, not the sin of Adam. Ezekiel 18 teaches this very clearly.

 

[razeontherock]

You still don’t seem to get it. My issue isn’t that Adam and Eve shouldn’t have had consequences; my issue is that we shouldn’t be forced to inherit their sin! Supposed Adam messed up and broke a leg? Would all of mankind be born with a broken leg? So why is it that when he messed up and sinned we have to inherit that?

Ken

Christianity does not teach what you are opposed to here. Some sects do, but this is not what was taught from the beginning, neither is it necessary for God's plan of Salvation to work. We can each have our own "original sin."

 

[razeontherock]

But God didn’t have to design it that way; why didn’t he design it so when Adam sined we don’t inherit the tendency towards sin? Why didn’t he make us perfect like he made Adam?

Adam was not created perfect. This may prove pivotal for you to understand

 

[PureDose]

Why must it be a place of torment for those who miss the mark? Seems to me God could just as easily leave hell for Satan and his angels and allow those who miss the mark to continue self ruling here on earth for eternity. Why all the torture?

Ken

Hell is just a place where people's souls are cleansed by fire, no God does not torture people forever and ever in some place.

The beast, false prophet, and Satan are said to be "tormented day and night forever and ever", but who knows what that means. People also need scapegoats, and it is not wrong to give them something so they will be able to keep their eyes focused on what they can understand... because these are matters people can not understand.

Much of these doctrines that turn Hell into some place of eternal, unending torment come from Rome, the Dark Ages, you know, where they actually had people literally torturing others and murdering them? (And no, that was evil, and not at all of Christ, obviously.)

 

[Ken-1122]

Christianity does not teach what you are opposed to here. Some sects do, but this is not what was taught from the beginning, neither is it necessary for God's plan of Salvation to work. We can each have our own "original sin."

We don't. We are created like Adam, spiritually and physically alive. If we die spiritually it is because of our own sin, not the sin of Adam. Ezekiel 18 teaches this very clearly.

So if I am understanding you guys correctly; we did not inherit sin from Adam, that we were born without a perpensity towards sin, just like Adam; and each of us discovered sin on our own? Am I understanding you guys correctly?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Hell is just a place where people's souls are cleansed by fire, no God does not torture people forever and ever in some place.

The beast, false prophet, and Satan are said to be "tormented day and night forever and ever", but who knows what that means. People also need scapegoats, and it is not wrong to give them something so they will be able to keep their eyes focused on what they can understand... because these are matters people can not understand.

Much of these doctrines that turn Hell into some place of eternal, unending torment come from Rome, the Dark Ages, you know, where they actually had people literally torturing others and murdering them? (And no, that was evil, and not at all of Christ, obviously.)

Thank-you for your perspective. I like your concept of Christianity better than most; it sounds much more fair.

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

So if I am understanding you guys correctly; we did not inherit sin from Adam, that we were born without a perpensity towards sin, just like Adam; and each of us discovered sin on our own? Am I understanding you guys correctly?

Ken

Sorry, but there is some confusion here. Elman and I do not agree on some of the basics you're inquiring about. I think there is some difference in how I was born as compared to Adam (other than the belly button thing

But Adam was not born (or crerated?) perfect - just "good." He was not yet complete. Our species is still undergoing that process ...

 

[razeontherock]

Thank-you for your perspective. I like your concept of Christianity better than most; it sounds much more fair.

Ken

I agree with him, too. But I point out he's right when he says the things we're attempting to discuss are beyond our comprehension, and what glimpses of the truth of it we get can't possibly be a complete understanding. And so I temper the phrase "hell isn't a place of ______" (Fill in the blank anyway you want)

I point out that what God has told us, that we can understand, is that "All Judgment has been given to the Son." IOW, what Jesus says, goes. Which is supremely fair! I mean, HE paid the penalty for sin, Himself, personally. If He says it's not enough in my case, who can really argue with Him about it? And if He says I need to be "tormented day and night for ever and ever," right along with the beast and the false prophet, who is in a position to tell Him He's wrong?

To which I can only say "Lord have Mercy!"

So please note the sensibility of having the defense attorney, person who paid the penalty, and the Judge all being the same Person! (Also notice that said individual would have had to die, and rise again)

 

[Ken-1122]

Sorry, but there is some confusion here. Elman and I do not agree on some of the basics you're inquiring about. I think there is some difference in how I was born as compared to Adam (other than the belly button thing

But Adam was not born (or crerated?) perfect - just "good." He was not yet complete. Our species is still undergoing that process ...

Would you say it was those differences between the way we were born vs the way Adam was born that allowed him to go such a long time as an adult without sinning?

K

 

[elman]

So if I am understanding you guys correctly; we did not inherit sin from Adam, that we were born without a perpensity towards sin, just like Adam; and each of us discovered sin on our own? Am I understanding you guys correctly?

Ken

Yes. We each distroy our own spiritual existence with our own sin. We are not responsible for the sins of our fathers and our sons and daughters are not responsbile for our sin.

 

[razeontherock]

Would you say it was those differences between the way we were born vs the way Adam was born that allowed him to go such a long time as an adult without sinning?

K

This is an interesting point, that most Christians seem to have never considered! Based on what the Bible tells us, Adam could have lived for "millions and millions of years" in a sinless state, or he could have sinned his very first day of life.

 

[razeontherock]

So if I am understanding you guys correctly; we did not inherit sin from Adam, that we were born without a perpensity towards sin, just like Adam; and each of us discovered sin on our own? Am I understanding you guys correctly?

Ken

Where I differ from Elman's POV, is I see a need for people to be "born again." I'm not sure that his stated theology accounts for that?