Why Must Force and/or Threat Be a Requirement for Non-Christians?

[humblehumility]

Two words any Christians here would never use to describe their faith would be forced or threatened. This is because they are a happy believer that chooses freely to love God, and is enthralled with the benefits.

Now for the other 4 billion of us, we are either forced to believe Christianity, or threatened by it. It's a free choice of course, but if you say "no", you face eternal damnation. Eternal torture. Eternal removal from bliss. Eternal death. From someone in my position, that's extremely threatening.

Why must God force his people to believe them by threatening them with death? Is this an act of a loving, just, merciful God? Does any good parent threaten their children with death if they refuse to obey? Under what capacity would this be in a loving God's worldview?

Again, to fully understand this you have to see it from the perspective of a non-believer. I know your perspective, you're happily skipping in the fields picking daisies with God, anybody would be crazy not to accept the love of Christ that you have accepted. We don't have to be forced, it's a free gift that's our choice! But if you don't accept...
--
I'm just as happily skipping in the field opposite you, picking daisies without God. The only reason I have to believe is the threat of eternal death, and that's no reason to believe in anything. Unfortunately it's a common characteristic of many religions, I wonder why that is.

 

[Hakan101]

Two words any Christians here would never use to describe their faith would be forced or threatened. This is because they are a happy believer that chooses freely to love God, and is enthralled with the benefits.

Now for the other 4 billion of us, we are either forced to believe Christianity, or threatened by it. It's a free choice of course, but if you say "no", you face eternal damnation. Eternal torture. Eternal removal from bliss. Eternal death. From someone in my position, that's extremely threatening.

Why must God force his people to believe them by threatening them with death? Is this an act of a loving, just, merciful God? Does any good parent threaten their children with death if they refuse to obey? Under what capacity would this be in a loving God's worldview?

Again, to fully understand this you have to see it from the perspective of a non-believer. I know your perspective, you're happily skipping in the fields picking daisies with God, anybody would be crazy not to accept the love of Christ that you have accepted. We don't have to be forced, it's a free gift that's our choice! But if you don't accept...
--
I'm just as happily skipping in the field opposite you, picking daisies without God. The only reason I have to believe is the threat of eternal death, and that's no reason to believe in anything. Unfortunately it's a common characteristic of many religions, I wonder why that is.

I don't want to sound confrontational, but you misunderstand how it works. It's not like Hell is a fiery pit that God drops people into as they scream "Please give us a chance!" and God's like "NOOOOO you had your chance!" Hell is something you choose, it's your own path of self-servience going on forever. We have eternal souls, we can go into eternity serving God--who *is* bliss, love, goodness, everything you cherish--or we can do into eternity reigning forever as our own master, completely without God. That's where the misery comes from, knowing that you are miserable without God, knowing you were given a chance and you rejected it, yet your soul is so self-centered it absolutely refuses to admit it was wrong. That's how people who are self-centered act.

C.S. Lewis put it like this. ‎"In the long run the answer to those who reject the doctrine of Hell is itself a question: what are you asking God to do? To wipe out past sins and at all costs give them a fresh start? He did, on cavalry. Forgive them? But they don't ask for forgiveness. To leave them alone? That's what Hell is. ‎

There are only two kinds of people in the end. Those who say to God, 'Thy will be done.' And those to whom God says in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell choose it. Without that self choice, it wouldn't be Hell.'"

For Christians, Hell is not meant to scare people into obedience, but rather it is meant to show just how much God loves us. He went to such great lengths to take us away from that path and back to Him. He loves us so much he went and experienced it all on our behalf so we would never have to.

You say you're happily skipping in the fields just like we are. But I'm not. My life isn't perfect, and I know yours isn't either. The question is who are you living your life for? You want to live for God, or do you want to live for yourself? It's that simple. No one's threatening you, you're not being victimized. God's going to give you what you want.

 

[American Routes]

Why must God force his people to believe them by threatening them with death?

I wasn't aware that He did.

Is this an act of a loving, just, merciful God?

No, it's the act of a straw man god.

Does any good parent threaten their children with death if they refuse to obey?

How many parents are God?

I'm just as happily skipping in the field opposite you, picking daisies without God. The only reason I have to believe is the threat of eternal death, and that's no reason to believe in anything. Unfortunately it's a common characteristic of many religions, I wonder why that is.

Then continue to reject Christ. Nobody's forcing you to submit to Him.

 

[drich0150]

Why must God force his people to believe them by threatening them with death?

Death is apart of life. it is the course of all things living. Those who want to go on beyond this life, can do so with God. those who do not want to go one, will experience what this natural life offers.

Is this an act of a loving, just, merciful God?

Yes in that all who want to be with Him get to do so and those who do not, are not forced to do so.

Does any good parent threaten their children with death if they refuse to obey?

Do Children die when they do not listen to their parents? If you lived next to the interstate, and were only separated from the interstate by a small fence. Would your child die if he climbed that fence and ran out and played on the interstate?

So the question is, would you be parent enough to warn your child by telling him, "if you play on the interstate you will die?"

What if He were caught climbing the fence in the 15 seconds you did not have your eye on Him? Would you, could you tell him that He will surly die if he does not listen to you?

How does a concerned earthly parents actions differ from that of our concerned heavenly parent?

Under what capacity would this be in a loving God's worldview?

Reread the above if this is still a question you have.

Again, to fully understand this you have to see it from the perspective of a non-believer. I know your perspective, you're happily skipping in the fields picking daisies with God, anybody would be crazy not to accept the love of Christ that you have accepted. We don't have to be forced, it's a free gift that's our choice! But if you don't accept...

Bam you get stuck with the natural consequences of LIFE.

I'm just as happily skipping in the field opposite you, picking daisies without God. The only reason I have to believe is the threat of eternal death, and that's no reason to believe in anything.

Your right in that once we begin to mature we tend to want to separate ourselves from our parents and what they tell us. so the first thing that we do is try and remove the authority they have over us, from them. But, even so does this make the interstate any less dangerous to play on? what if you do not want to listen to your parents? does the interstate become a safe place to play?

Unfortunately it's a common characteristic of many religions, I wonder why that is.

People know, few will follow a completely "new truth." So what tends to happen more often than not (in the beginning anyway) is they start out with foundational truth, God's truth and then ever so slightly modify it to suit their own wants or needs. In the end you have two separate religions but with the same origin.

On a side note. I am really disappointed to see how your last thread turned out.

 

[Emmy]

Dear humblehumility. God is Love, Jesus died out of Love for God and Man, Christians are Commanded by Jesus to Love God with all their hearts, with all their souls, and with all their minds. ALSO: To love their neighbour as themselves. Why?? God wants loving children, sons and daughters to be with for eternity. God is our Heavenly Father, and even now the Holy Spirit is in the World to carry on the work which Jesus started. God told us: " whosoever will, may come." For those of us who do not want to come, they need not, God does not force us in any way. The Key to God`s Kingdom is: Love with all our beings for God who made us in His image, who is all Love and Compassion, who wants His sons and daughters around Him for all eternity. Earth is our learning-arena, here we learn and prepare ourselves to live as loving children with our loving Heavenly Father. There is no threat whatsoever for those who do not want to love God, they themselves choose to go their own way, Jesus our Saviour died for ALL, and all may come.We have to Repent however, to change our selfish and unloving character into: Loving God and loving our brothers and sisters as we love ourselves. It is up to us, humblehumility, Jesus is The Way back to God, where we came from, we either follow Him or go our own way. Jesus told us of a place in Outer Darkness, without God`s Light or His Love. Jesus died that we can live again, He paid the prize we could not pay, and He is the Way back to God. I say this with love, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[humblehumility]

I don't want to sound confrontational, but you misunderstand how it works. It's not like Hell is a fiery pit that God drops people into as they scream "Please give us a chance!" and God's like "NOOOOO you had your chance!" Hell is something you choose, it's your own path of self-servience going on forever. We have eternal souls, we can go into eternity serving God--who *is* bliss, love, goodness, everything you cherish--or we can do into eternity reigning forever as our own master, completely without God. That's where the misery comes from, knowing that you are miserable without God, knowing you were given a chance and you rejected it, yet your soul is so self-centered it absolutely refuses to admit it was wrong. That's how people who are self-centered act.

If Hell is say like, another Earth, a place where God doesn't intervene with his creation, I have no problem with being in "Hell". We're certainly not the most gracious species to exist (eh, maybe we are actually), but for the most part I appreciate existing in the first place and enjoy this planet.

But from what I know about the apologist POV on the subject of Hell, it may just be that we cease to exist (souls too). That wouldn't be so bad either.

For Christians, Hell is not meant to scare people into obedience, but rather it is meant to show just how much God loves us.

"I love you, but if you don't trust my sacred texts you're going to Hell." I feel so loved.

He went to such great lengths to take us away from that path and back to Him.

Great lengths meaning: sacrificed 1 person (himself) and had a book written about it. I can think of humans who have done much more to lead people to morality and peace.

You say you're happily skipping in the fields just like we are. But I'm not. My life isn't perfect, and I know yours isn't either.

Nope, it's certainly not. But I enjoy my life a lot, and am happy to be here.

The question is who are you living your life for? You want to live for God, or do you want to live for yourself? It's that simple. No one's threatening you, you're not being victimized. God's going to give you what you want.

Myself of course. Internal peace is much more important to me than worshiping something I have no valid (from my POV) evidence of.

 

[humblehumility]

I wasn't aware that He did.

That's because you're a believer, and like I pointed out twice in my original post, are only viewing this from the perspective of a believer. Being a non-believer, I am being forced to believe in something I have no evidence for, forced with the threat of missing out on eternal bliss. "If you don't believe, you won't have eternal perfection." That sounds like a threat to me.

How many parents are God?

God is referred to both literally and allegorically as our father about a bazillion times in the Bible. He is the parent of humanity.

Then continue to reject Christ. Nobody's forcing you to submit to Him.

Right, nobody's forcing me. But if I don't, I'm missing out on an eternal bliss that only believers get to experience. That's a little threatening.

 

[American Routes]

Like I said, if you don't like it, then just continue to reject Christ. If you're right, then nothing will happen to you.

 

[frankleespeaking]

Dear humblehumility. God is Love, Jesus died out of Love for God and Man, Christians are Commanded by Jesus to Love God with all their hearts, with all their souls, and with all their minds. ALSO: To love their neighbour as themselves. Why?? God wants loving children, sons and daughters to be with for eternity. God is our Heavenly Father, and even now the Holy Spirit is in the World to carry on the work which Jesus started. God told us: " whosoever will, may come." For those of us who do not want to come, they need not, God does not force us in any way. The Key to God`s Kingdom is: Love with all our beings for God who made us in His image, who is all Love and Compassion, who wants His sons and daughters around Him for all eternity. Earth is our learning-arena, here we learn and prepare ourselves to live as loving children with our loving Heavenly Father. There is no threat whatsoever for those who do not want to love God, they themselves choose to go their own way, Jesus our Saviour died for ALL, and all may come.We have to Repent however, to change our selfish and unloving character into: Loving God and loving our brothers and sisters as we love ourselves. It is up to us, humblehumility, Jesus is The Way back to God, where we came from, we either follow Him or go our own way. Jesus told us of a place in Outer Darkness, without God`s Light or His Love. Jesus died that we can live again, He paid the prize we could not pay, and He is the Way back to God. I say this with love, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

I couldn't even dream of a better answer I would say this poster also is really not a true atheist, why would he care about going to hell, if its simply a nonexistant place, I think deep down he knows that God does exist, and I hope and pray that God would make Himself known to him in a real and personal way. Once God does that, it doesn't matter what anyone tells him, when God becomes real you can't get past it, its so unbelievably wonderful, when you know that He knows you, beyond a shadow of a doubt. And humblehumility if God could love me, the worst of all sinners, I know He could love you, in fact He's probably waiting right now for you to ask Him to forgive your sin's so that you can feel how it feels to be completely forgiven, and be given a new Spirit inside of you that will lead you into all truth. Jesus gave His life so that you could live

 

[sbvd]

I'm just as happily skipping in the field opposite you, picking daisies without God. The only reason I have to believe is the threat of eternal death, and that's no reason to believe in anything. Unfortunately it's a common characteristic of many religions, I wonder why that is.

Well, from my perspective, it's more that we are already fallen. It's not like God is acting as a cop, on the lookout for offenders, it's more like that we're all offenders that are given a choice to repent and have a new life.

Speaking metaphorically, of course.

 

[maizer]

Why must God force his people to believe them by threatening them with death? Is this an act of a loving, just, merciful God? Does any good parent threaten their children with death if they refuse to obey? Under what capacity would this be in a loving God's worldview?

Actually, if you read the Bible closely, almost all the 'warnings' and 'threats' are against the Israelis or Christians. Basically the people who already believe. And if you've ever been a child, you know sometimes it takes lollipops, and sometimes it means punishment.

As for the non believers, God does use 'warnings' or 'threats'. But the 'warnings' usually come because the non-believers are in self destruction mode anyway, or threatening the Israelis. Look an Nineveh in Jonas for example. God isn't threatening them with hell, but to turn from their 'bad' ways. Likewise, Gods main message today, is that that there is much more to your life than where you are right now. Not threatening us with a burning hell that popular opinion loves to run with

 

[Incariol]

Two words any Christians here would never use to describe their faith would be forced or threatened. This is because they are a happy believer that chooses freely to love God, and is enthralled with the benefits.

Now for the other 4 billion of us, we are either forced to believe Christianity, or threatened by it. It's a free choice of course, but if you say "no", you face eternal damnation. Eternal torture. Eternal removal from bliss. Eternal death. From someone in my position, that's extremely threatening.

Why must God force his people to believe them by threatening them with death? Is this an act of a loving, just, merciful God? Does any good parent threaten their children with death if they refuse to obey? Under what capacity would this be in a loving God's worldview?

Again, to fully understand this you have to see it from the perspective of a non-believer. I know your perspective, you're happily skipping in the fields picking daisies with God, anybody would be crazy not to accept the love of Christ that you have accepted. We don't have to be forced, it's a free gift that's our choice! But if you don't accept...
--
I'm just as happily skipping in the field opposite you, picking daisies without God. The only reason I have to believe is the threat of eternal death, and that's no reason to believe in anything. Unfortunately it's a common characteristic of many religions, I wonder why that is.

It isn't a "threat". Death is the inevitable result of your own decisions, from which God offers an escape. That is all.

 

[God's Word]

God is referred to both literally and allegorically as our father about a bazillion times in the Bible. He is the parent of humanity.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong about this...terribly wrong. The Bible makes it clear that most of humanity has Satan as their father. You can follow him all the way to hell, if you'd like to. Don't blame God for trying to stop you.

On a side note, I'm somewhat curious as to why several people (not everyone by any means) bother posting in this section of the forum. It's supposed to be a place for those who are "Exploring Christianity", but it seems more like a place at times for those who are "Deploring Christianity". As someone once rightly noted:

There are two basic tenets to atheism:

1. There is no God.
2. I hate Him.

And so it goes...

 

[humblehumility]

I'll respond to everyone else seriously when I get more time tomorrow, but I chuckled when I read this.

There are two basic tenets to atheism:

1. There is no God.
2. I hate Him.

You cannot hate something you don't think is there.

I don't "hate" God nor have I ever said I do. When I talk about the loving qualities of God contradicting or not making any reasonable sense, I am talking about your conception of God. One of the main reasons I believe (your conception of God) doesn't exist is through his lack of intervention. There are countless reasonable arguments that suggest a God described with the characteristics you describe him would in fact want to intervene, as not to watch billions of his children suffer and die.

I mean, God does intervene physically plenty - in the Bible. It's only when we acquire knowledge and better recording tools that God decides to cut off the intervention and leave it all to this funny word called 'faith'.

There is reason after reason why the existence of no (Christian conception of) God makes perfect sense.

 

[humblehumility]

1. There is no God.
2. I hate Him.

And so it goes...

Whoops, my response above only points out the flaw in reasoning for tenet #2. Allow me to break down #1.

The atheist (or at least my brand of atheist) statement is not nearly as definitive as the Christian one. Christians say there is a God. Atheists say there's no reason to believe a God is there. I do not say "There is no God", that's a bit of a foolish statement.

There could be a God. The beauty in broadening your worldview (leaving monotheistic belief) is that now I can think more openly about what a God, if he existed, would really be like. I've come to find that my conception of what a creator would be is nothing like the depiction of the Christian God in the Bible.

Or maybe Satan is magically messing with my mind and making me subconsciously follow and submit to him.

What were your tenets to atheism again?

 

[God's Word]

You cannot hate something you don't think is there.

Which is precisely why I believe that all (yes, all) atheists are liars. It's willful rebellion against the conviction of God, from what I've seen and heard, and not a lack of evidence or a lack of strivings from God. As Jesus said, one either gathers for Him or scatters against Him. There is no middle ground.

I don't "hate" God nor have I ever said I do. When I talk about the loving qualities of God contradicting or not making any reasonable sense, I am talking about your conception of God. One of the main reasons I believe (your conception of God) doesn't exist is through his lack of intervention. There are countless reasonable arguments that suggest a God described with the characteristics you describe him would in fact want to intervene, as not to watch billions of his children suffer and die.

I mean, God does intervene physically plenty - in the Bible. It's only when we acquire knowledge and better recording tools that God decides to cut off the intervention and leave it all to this funny word called 'faith'.

And what, exactly, do you suppose MY "conception of God" is? Something that you've superimposed upon me or my actual description of said God? As far as Divine intervention (or interaction, for that matter) is concerned, I've personally experienced plenty of it, so your blanket statements don't cover me. Regarding "faith", mine is far from a "blind faith". From what I both understand from scripture and have experienced personally, "faith" is confidence in a God Whom I know to do exactly what He's said He'll do in any given situation. IOW, it's not just some "wishful thinking" in a distant God. I also see that you're still clinging to your false belief that everyone is a child of God. They're not. In fact, based upon your own testimony, you're not. There are plenty of those who are children of the devil and the lusts or desires of their father they will do. Hell, according to Jesus Christ, was created for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). For those who cling to him as their father, well...

There is reason after reason why the existence of no (Christian conception of) God makes perfect sense.

Actually, there's only one reason, namely this:

Your chosen username doesn't genuinely reflect your personality.

God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

Try repentance.

 

[frankleespeaking]

I'll respond to everyone else seriously when I get more time tomorrow, but I chuckled when I read this.



You cannot hate something you don't think is there.

I don't "hate" God nor have I ever said I do. When I talk about the loving qualities of God contradicting or not making any reasonable sense, I am talking about your conception of God. One of the main reasons I believe (your conception of God) doesn't exist is through his lack of intervention. There are countless reasonable arguments that suggest a God described with the characteristics you describe him would in fact want to intervene, as not to watch billions of his children suffer and die.

I mean, God does intervene physically plenty - in the Bible. It's only when we acquire knowledge and better recording tools that God decides to cut off the intervention and leave it all to this funny word called 'faith'.

There is reason after reason why the existence of no (Christian conception of) God makes perfect sense.

He intervened in my life, so dramatically I'll never be the same again,

 

[humblehumility]

Death is apart of life. it is the course of all things living. Those who want to go on beyond this life, can do so with God. those who do not want to go one, will experience what this natural life offers.

Thank you for the words of wisdom, but this does nothing to address what you quoted.

Yes in that all who want to be with Him get to do so and those who do not, are not forced to do so.

If an all loving, merciful, wonderful creator exists, I'd love to be with him. Unfortunately if he is there, he has given me no reason to believe he's actually there. If he was loving, he would reveal himself to me (and the billions of others that do not believe in him).

Do Children die when they do not listen to their parents? If you lived next to the interstate, and were only separated from the interstate by a small fence. Would your child die if he climbed that fence and ran out and played on the interstate?

So the question is, would you be parent enough to warn your child by telling him, "if you play on the interstate you will die?"

What if He were caught climbing the fence in the 15 seconds you did not have your eye on Him? Would you, could you tell him that He will surly die if he does not listen to you?

How does a concerned earthly parents actions differ from that of our concerned heavenly parent?

How does it differ? Well, the parent is actually saying to the child "Child, listen to me, if you go play in traffic there's a good chance you will die." Not only is the address physical and real, the child could see that there is much evidence to support their parents claim (ie looking at all the fast moving cars in the road).

God had a book written thousands of years ago that does not withstand scientific scrutiny, and tells us that if we do not heed the words of this book, we are to die eternally. That is much different than a parent warning their child to not play in the interstate.

Bam you get stuck with the natural consequences of LIFE.

Hence the threat. "Follow me, or suffer the consequences".

But, even so does this make the interstate any less dangerous to play on? what if you do not want to listen to your parents? does the interstate become a safe place to play?

This interstate analogy is brutal. You can look with your eyes and see cars zipping on the interstate, and reasonably conclude that playing out there is likely to get you killed.

People know, few will follow a completely "new truth." So what tends to happen more often than not (in the beginning anyway) is they start out with foundational truth, God's truth and then ever so slightly modify it to suit their own wants or needs. In the end you have two separate religions but with the same origin.

Are you suggesting Christianity was the first religion to impose a form of "Hell" to nonbelievers? I can see you haven't done your research on world religions (pre-Christianity), but if anything Christianity borrows almost all of it's ideas from religions that existed prior to it. Hmm, kind of makes sense if you view it from the perspective of religion being completely man-made.

On a side note. I am really disappointed to see how your last thread turned out.

Our arguments get repetitive and dull, and unlike you I have 10-20 people to respond to. If there's something you really want me to address, bring it up. I don't have all day to sit here and type out responses so at certain points, I have to allow you to have the last words.

 

[humblehumility]

There is no threat whatsoever for those who do not want to love God, they themselves choose to go their own way, Jesus our Saviour died for ALL, and all may come.

Right, but do you not understand I have no reasonable cause to believe God exists? Everything actually points to the opposite - that he doesn't exist (at least in the Christian capacity).

I can't force myself to believe something I have no evidence for, but I am told that for this, I'm going to Hell. That's threatening.

 

[humblehumility]

I would say this poster also is really not a true atheist

LOL, that's why labels are dumb, especially in atheism. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I completely reject the possibility of a God existing.

in fact He's probably waiting right now for you to ask Him to forgive your sin's so that you can feel how it feels to be completely forgiven, and be given a new Spirit inside of you that will lead you into all truth. Jesus gave His life so that you could live

I used to ask for forgiveness every.single.day. I didn't miss a day asking for it for at least 10 years. Now I never ask for it, and I feel absolutely no different.