Why Must Force and/or Threat Be a Requirement for Non-Christians?

[humblehumility]

Which is precisely why I believe that all (yes, all) atheists are liars. It's willful rebellion against the conviction of God, from what I've seen and heard, and not a lack of evidence or a lack of strivings from God. As Jesus said, one either gathers for Him or scatters against Him. There is no middle ground.

This is all from your Christian perspective. Whether or not yours is right and mine is wrong, you must acknowledge that other perspectives and worldviews exist. I am willfully rebelling against God from your point of view, not from mine. So I would say "I'm not rebelling against God, because I do not think he is there." You would say "Yes you are, because God is there, and not believe is rebelling". I would say "Ok, show me that God is there." At that point, I'm either pointed to the Bible or told a story.

And what, exactly, do you suppose MY "conception of God" is? Something that you've superimposed upon me or my actual description of said God?

God as the Bible describes him. The "believe in me or perish" God.

As far as Divine intervention (or interaction, for that matter) is concerned, I've personally experienced plenty of it, so your blanket statements don't cover me.

Do you have any proof to offer? Because people get so emotional that they cry their eyes out when they talk about the aliens that abducted them. Do you think only Christians experience divine intervention, and not Hindus or Muslims?

If you can't offer any more proof than a Muslim, Hindu, or alien abductee, your experience is thrown in the "delusion" file with the rest of them.

I also see that you're still clinging to your false belief that everyone is a child of God. They're not.

In the sense that God gave birth to humanity (we are humans), he is our father.

Anything concerning "the Devil" is just pure nonsense. An all powerful, all loving God wouldn't allow the devil to run around recruiting people to rebel against God. The only way that would happen is if God wanted it to happen, since he has complete control over everything. If he wanted the Devil to happen, that completely contradicts his all loving nature.

God resists the proud

Since when is pride in yourself a bad thing?

but gives grace to the humble.

I've asked God to reveal himself to me hundreds of times. I actually believed in it for years. I've done all any Christian can do to "feel" God (and I thought I did). Then I grew up intellectually and said to myself "You know what, maybe it's time to explore the possibility that you are completely wrong."

Try repentance.

As I said earlier, I repented every single day for at least 10 years. I feel no different now and I haven't said a prayer in probably about a year now, subtracting a few prayers over the past few months where I sincerely said "God, if you are there, please stop me from this path I'm going down and show me that you exist."

So far, nadda.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

If you put your hand in fire it will hurt. <- Would that statement be a threat? I don't think so. You might argue that it's "unfair" that your hand gets burnt (why did God have to make fire painful?) but I don't think fairness really has anything to do with it . This life on earth isn't "fair" why would the afterlife be? I trust that there is some divine logic that really transcends anything can we can make sense of in regards to suffering. Who can comprehend God? I don't know all the reasons for everything but I trust Him ... at least on my better days.

That being said I don't believe that people will necessarily be stuck in hellish suffering for ever and ever though. Hell is an educational process and a form of rehabilitation. Our evil thoughts and actions cause us suffering. Some day people will get wise and drop evil like a hot coal.

 

[humblehumility]

If you put your hand in fire it will hurt. <- Would that statement be a threat?

Of course not. We know what fire is (the chemical combustion and properties of it), and know what damage to our skin/nerves the fire will do if we stick our hand in it. It makes total sense that sticking your hand in a fire would hurt.

This life on earth isn't "fair" why would the afterlife be?

I don't know if there's an afterlife or not.

Who can comprehend God?

Nobody, since God does not appear to exist.

That being said I don't believe that people will necessarily be stuck in hellish suffering for ever and ever though. Hell is an educational process and a form of rehabilitation. Our evil thoughts and actions cause us suffering. Some day people will get wise and drop evil like a hot coal.

A bit more of an empathetic thought, yes, but no more true than the Christians who say I'll be burning in a lake of fire for eternity.

I try my best every day to not be "evil". The only kind of evil I cannot avoid being is the type of "evil" that says "I have no good reason to believe God exists". And since I don't believe God exists, I don't see it as being evil.

Rather than worry about the afterlife, God, and subjective things we have no proof of, I focus my self-reconciliation on objective morality, being a better person in this world, and developing my intellect. If God wants to throw me in hell for that, so be it.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

I don't know if there's an afterlife or not.

I believe you. I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. If there was an afterlife why would we expect it to coincide with our understanding of "fair" when this world itself doesn't? That's what I was trying to get at.

Nobody, since God does not appear to exist.

It may appear that way to you.

A bit more of an empathetic thought, yes, but no more true than the Christians who say I'll be burning in a lake of fire for eternity.

I never said your were going to hell.

I try my best every day to not be "evil".

That's good.

 

[humblehumility]

I believe you. I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. If there was an afterlife why would we expect it to coincide with our understanding of "fair" when this world itself doesn't? That's what I was trying to get at.

Because it's life that isn't fair. Afterlife has nothing to do with life, as it is what lies beyond temporal existence.

I do have hope for an afterlife, but I can say I have no idea what it would be like. The possibilities are endless.

It may appear that way to you.

Indeed it does, but I'm convicted and threatened because of that. I can't help how the world appears to me, yet for this I'm missing out on eternal happiness.

I never said your were going to hell.

Well according to the Bible I most likely am.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Indeed it does, but I'm convicted and threatened because of that.

By whom and in what way?

I can't help how the world appears to me

That's most likely the case. Like most people though I'm sure the world will appear different over time. My world doesn't appear the same way it did a few years ago. To a certain degree a few days or even seconds ago. God is the only Controller and Actor. He will take you where you need to go.

yet for this I'm missing out on eternal happiness.

I hope not.

I do have hope for an afterlife, but I can say I have no idea what it would be like. The possibilities are endless.

There are a lot of possibilities. If you are interested in being good and helping your fellow man I have to believe that you will receive a good reward. Not an ounce of good will be forgotten. Problem is all our negative thoughts and actions seem to rebound on us and bring a lot of suffering as well.

 

[oi_antz]

Hello humblehumility, I can't quite remember the details but I think we've been close to flaming in the past so I want to be extra careful to avoid that. I just want to show you where a change in your attitude might earn a bit of God's favor.

I just can't help but think that you are trying to put God in a box, as though you are forcing God to conform to your requirements. I've seen this quite a lot, that non-believers are expecting some sort of "sign" from God to confirm that He is there instead of just trusting and obeying. This is the same thing that Jesus faced, although there was plenty of witnesses that could testify of His miracles, the religious leaders still asked Him to perform a sign in the sky. His answer? "A wicked and perverse generation asks for a sign", yet He was the Word of God in the flesh and He was able to answer every question they asked.

Ponder this. Why would someone expect Jesus to provide a sign? Because they didn't want Him to be their Lord, they wanted Him to conform to their demands.

Who are you for Jesus? Who do you want to be for Jesus? Remember Jesus said to the disciples "I will make you fishers of men". That is the type of commitment Jesus desires. He says “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross daily, and follow me."

Hebrews 10:13 There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet.

Notice that He waits for His enemies to be humbled, He doesn't need to battle His enemies, it just happens that they become humbled! Maybe you need to be sufficiently frustrated before you can be properly humbled, I know that I got frustrated before I came to ask God for the answer, but He certainly answered.

Remember this verse:

Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and he will give you everything you need.

This means to do everything you can do for God's kingdom, to me that is synonymous with "feeding His sheep". Who are His sheep? Are you one of His sheep? Am I meant to feed you, and are you meant to be feeding His sheep too?

Here's a beautiful song for you:

&#x202a;Trust & Obey - Sierra Hull (lyrics in description!)&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube

When we walk with the Lord
in the light of his word,
what a glory he sheds on our way!
While we do his good will,
he abides with us still,
and with all who will trust and obey.

Trust and obey, for there's no other way
to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

Then in fellowship sweet we will sit at His feet.
Or well walk by His side in the way.
What He says we will do, where He sends we will go;
Never fear, only trust and obey.

Trust and obey, for there's no other way
to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

I believe you. I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. If there was an afterlife why would we expect it to coincide with our understanding of "fair" when this world itself doesn't? That's what I was trying to get at.

Because the afterlife is supposed to be perfect. If it isn't, what would the attraction of it be? If it is, then it should be able to appear so to everyone, regardless of what their expectations are.

It may appear that way to you.

Do you have any evidence to suggest this is the case?

I never said your were going to hell.

He never claimed you did.

That's good.

Well, not really. Because even if he were evil, he wouldn't know.

If you put your hand in fire it will hurt. <- Would that statement be a threat?

This is a false analogy, since your statement implies that the burn is entirely the individual's fault, whereas this is not the case with this situation; for example, nobody was provided with the choice not to be born. A more accurate analogy would be this:

If you do not worship me I will douse you with petrol and set you on fire and it will hurt...for eternity.

This life on earth isn't "fair" why would the afterlife be?

As above.

Who can comprehend God? I don't know all the reasons for everything but I trust Him ... at least on my better days.

Why do you trust him?

That being said I don't believe that people will necessarily be stuck in hellish suffering for ever and ever though. Hell is an educational process and a form of rehabilitation. Our evil thoughts and actions cause us suffering. Some day people will get wise and drop evil like a hot coal.

Well, it's good that you don't think so. Unfortunately, other people do. And a 'no true Scotsman' fallacy won't really do. As someone else so eloquently said, the fundamental belief of a Christian is in Christ. You are precisely as much a Christian as every single one of those people who ever, in the entire history of mankind, said anything remotely resembling "you will burn in hell".

I just can't help but think that you are trying to put God in a box, as though you are forcing God to conform to your requirements. I've seen this quite a lot, that non-believers are expecting some sort of "sign" from God to confirm that He is there instead of just trusting and obeying. This is the same thing that Jesus faced, although there was plenty of witnesses that could testify of His miracles, the religious leaders still asked Him to perform a sign in the sky. His answer? "A wicked and perverse generation asks for a sign", yet He was the Word of God in the flesh and He was able to answer every question they asked.

Why is it reasonable to believe in an entity when there is no proof it exists? Why is it reasonable to blindly follow a book written millennia ago, purely because it claims to be written by said entity?

Ponder this. Why would someone expect Jesus to provide a sign? Because they didn't want Him to be their Lord, they wanted Him to conform to their demands.

Because it is logical to do so.

Notice that He waits for His enemies to be humbled, He doesn't need to battle His enemies, it just happens that they become humbled! Maybe you need to be sufficiently frustrated before you can be properly humbled, I know that I got frustrated before I came to ask God for the answer, but He certainly answered.

If God were perfect he would have no human enemies.

Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and he will give you everything you need.

Great. Because I'm seeking the Kingdom of God, and what I want is proof.

When we walk with the Lord
in the light of his word,
what a glory he sheds on our way!
While we do his good will,
he abides with us still,
and with all who will trust and obey.

Trust and obey, for there's no other way
to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

Then in fellowship sweet we will sit at His feet.
Or well walk by His side in the way.
What He says we will do, where He sends we will go;
Never fear, only trust and obey.

Trust and obey, for there's no other way
to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

It is apparent to me that this is consistent with two ideas:

1) There is a God, as described.
2) There is no God and if not for the argument ad populi, the writer would be medically diagnosed as suffering from a delusion.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi Mr. Pedantic, I see you are a new member and we haven't had the pleasure to converse yet. I must say first off you seem to be here with an agenda to disprove God and call people names like "delusional". That doesn't ring my bells so you have instantly caused me to lose interest.

I will tell you however that if you change your tune and appear to be willing to discuss these topics sincerely then I will respond to you. Also note that your response on this thread is against forum rules, only the OP and Christians are allowed to speak here, you would best start a new thread if you want to discuss something, and do it in "Christianity and world religion" if you want input from non-Christians.

I expect a moderator to come at some stage and clean this thread deleting your comment because it doesn't belong here. Just so you know I hope we can discuss something one day because I do in fact enjoy discussing with those who are prepared to listen. Since you are new I'll keep my eye out for you

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Because the afterlife is supposed to be perfect.

In what way? Pain and suffering are bound to dualistic thinking and ignorance. If this isn't rectified in this life I don't see why dying would automatically fix anything. The same seeds of suffering are still in us waiting to manifest once again. I don't believe that death destroys them. I'm not opposed to the idea of death destroying ignorance. In fact I would really like it to be true but I can't bring myself to believe that way. It doesn't make sense based on my experience.

Is death a magic cure all? If I believed it was I think I would have finished myself off a long time ago.

If it isn't, what would the attraction of it be?

I'm not really holding it out as an attraction. It just is what it is.

Why do you trust him?

In one sense I would say that I have no control over it. God is the only controller. In the flow of everyday appearances or seeming reality I would probably say it has to do with experience and trial and error. When "x" happens "y" occurs. If I like "y" then I try to do "x". Trust in God brings pleasant results and experiences that lead me to continue having trust in God. Just like I have trust that after putting my hand on something hot I might like to put some burn gel on. It's worked before why not try it again?

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Hi Mr. Pedantic, I see you are a new member and we haven't had the pleasure to converse yet. I must say first off you seem to be here with an agenda to disprove God and call people names like "delusional". That doesn't ring my bells so you have instantly caused me to lose interest.

The relevant part of the DSM-4 regarding delusions is: "false beliefs based on incorrect inference about external reality that persist despite the evidence to the contrary and these beliefs are not ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture."

Note that a person, for example, who claims to converse with 3 fairies in his head called Luis, Armand and Angel (props for getting the reference) would be diagnosed as delusional, simply because his belief is not shared by other members of his culture. Yet a person who claims to converse with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent deity would not, purely because this belief is common within his society, despite no evidence affirming the presence of said deity.

I will tell you however that if you change your tune and appear to be willing to discuss these topics sincerely then I will respond to you. Also note that your response on this thread is against forum rules, only the OP and Christians are allowed to speak here, you would best start a new thread if you want to discuss something, and do it in "Christianity and world religion" if you want input from non-Christians.

I'm sorry, I was unaware. However, it does seem a bit of a one-sided discussion allowing a non-Christian to post a topic, yet only allowing Christians to reply.

In what way? Pain and suffering are bound to dualistic thinking and ignorance. If this isn't rectified in this life I don't see why dying would automatically fix anything. The same seeds of suffering are still in us waiting to manifest once again. I don't believe that death destroys them. I'm not opposed to the idea of death destroying ignorance. In fact I would really like it to be true but I can't bring myself to believe that way. It doesn't make sense based on my experience.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole point of a 'Heaven' for the purposes of mankind was that it was a reward for those who followed God's creed while alive.

Is death a magic cure all? If I believed it was I think I would have finished myself off a long time ago.

Even if you did, I doubt it. There are a lot of people who believe that (or profess to believe, at least). And it is funny; they always tend to kill others because of this belief, but never themselves.

In one sense I would say that I have no control over it. God is the only controller. In the flow of everyday appearances or seeming reality I would probably say it has to do with experience and trial and error. When "x" happens "y" occurs. If I like "y" then I try to do "x". Trust in God brings pleasant results and experiences that lead me to continue having trust in God. Just like I have trust that after putting my hand on something hot I might like to put some burn gel on. It's worked before why not try it again?

This is a fallacious argument from authority. And a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. And a fallacy of affirming the consequent.

 

[oi_antz]

I'm sorry, I was unaware. However, it does seem a bit of a one-sided discussion allowing a non-Christian to post a topic, yet only allowing Christians to reply.

People can choose which forum they want to post in. This forum gives a non-Christian the opportunity to discuss exclusively with other Christians and without interference from misbelievers. I used to feel the same way as you do, but from experience have found that there is good logical reasoning behind this policy. "Society > Ethics and morality" might be a good place for you to check out, there is a lot of atheist opinion over there

 

[God's Word]

Which is precisely why I believe that all (yes, all) atheists are liars. It's willful rebellion against the conviction of God, from what I've seen and heard, and not a lack of evidence or a lack of strivings from God. As Jesus said, one either gathers for Him or scatters against Him. There is no middle ground.

This is all from your Christian perspective.

Actually, no, it is not. As I just explained to another poster on another thread, PRIOR to becoming a Christian, my daily routine was pretty much doing drugs, getting drunk, stealing, lying, gambling and a whole host of other things that I wouldn't mention on a public forum. In spite of this lifestyle that lasted from about age 16 to age 27, the last thing that I did every night (and sometimes during the day) was get down on my knees and pray to God. IOW, even in the midst of my own rebellion against God, I always had a conviction of my sin via God's Holy Spirit. ALWAYS. I didn't need for anyone to come along and try to convince me that God exists with some sort of fanciful argument or external proofs (although I've had many external proofs since turning to Christ). No, I already had all of the proof that I needed in that God was striving with me each and every day. Anyhow, as I said, my comments were not "all from my Christian perspective". I wasn't a Christian for the first 27 years of my life.

Whether or not yours is right and mine is wrong, you must acknowledge that other perspectives and worldviews exist.

They not only exist, but they abound. I never said or even insinuated that they didn't. And? There is a devil in this world who is a liar and there are also many "other gods" or demons. I wouldn't expect anything less than "other perspectives and worldviews" in such an environment.

I am willfully rebelling against God from your point of view, not from mine. So I would say "I'm not rebelling against God, because I do not think he is there." You would say "Yes you are, because God is there, and not believe is rebelling". I would say "Ok, show me that God is there." At that point, I'm either pointed to the Bible or told a story.

You need to understand that "my point of view" is one of somebody who has been on both sides of the fence, so to speak. IOW, my point of view INCLUDES a past where I rebelled against the same exact God. As far as "showing you that God is there" is concerned, personally, I would never seek to convince you with external evidence. From my perspective, which is based upon both scripture and personal experiences which perfectly line up with scripture, Christianity is all about "knowing God", as in "the two becoming one", and NOT about "knowing ABOUT God". There is a big difference. Such a relationship begins with strivings from God via His Holy Spirit. As I've ofttimes said, He's not called the HOLY Spirit for nothing. IOW, He'll convict you of sin and show you your need for repentance and a Saviour. I'm not about to seek to do what only God can do. Oh, I'll seek to both "plant" and "water" in the sense that I'll share the gospel with you or others, but the "increase" must ultimately come from God. You, in turn, can tell me that such "conviction from God" or "increase" has never come if you'd like to. At such a point, I would be forced to either believe your testimony or believe the Faithfulness of the God Whom I know and I would easily side with God. Hence, my personal belief that atheists are liars. You're free to disagree, but I'm not going to argue this point with you. I'm merely telling you what I personally believe in this regard, having already been on both sides of the aforementioned "fence" myself and knowing that God is no respecter of persons and that He's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. He does His part in trying to bring such about. This, I believe, wholeheartedly.

And what, exactly, do you suppose MY "conception of God" is? Something that you've superimposed upon me or my actual description of said God?

God as the Bible describes him. The "believe in me or perish" God.

Well, that's a somewhat skewed view of the God of the Bible. IOW, your "perishing" will not only be because you haven't truly believed in Jesus Christ, God's chosen means of salvation, but ALSO because you've willfully chosen to follow Satan. You can follow him all the way to eternal damnation, if you'd like to.

As far as Divine intervention (or interaction, for that matter) is concerned, I've personally experienced plenty of it, so your blanket statements don't cover me.

Do you have any proof to offer? Because people get so emotional that they cry their eyes out when they talk about the aliens that abducted them. Do you think only Christians experience divine intervention, and not Hindus or Muslims?

If you can't offer any more proof than a Muslim, Hindu, or alien abductee, your experience is thrown in the "delusion" file with the rest of them.

"Proof to offer" to whom? You or myself? For example, I've been delivered from many demons (LITERALLY and not figuratively, with continued results) and Divinely healed (without any sort of human intervention or medicine) many, many times since becoming a Christian. Do I expect YOU to believe this? No, I do not...especially since there's no lack of charlatans and con men (women) within the ranks of professing Christendom. Not only this, but even many of those who personally witnessed Jesus' miracles still didn't believe in Him. They accused Him of being in league with "Beelzebub" (Baalzebub, the "god" of Ekron - II Kings 1:1-3), accused Him of "having a devil", accused Him of being "a Samaritan" and a whole host of other things. Even the servant whose ear Peter cut off in the garden of Gethsemane which was then healed/restored by Jesus continued to assist in Jesus' arrest and consequential crucifixion. Was he moved by external proofs? Apparently not. With such truths as these in mind, why would I even seek to convince you with such "proofs" of my own? As I said/insinuated, Christianity primarily deals with SIN, which is an INTERNAL (although it will ofttimes manifest itself in an outward manner) problem and not with external proofs. IOW, YOURS is an INWARD SIN problem...not a lack of external proof problem.

I also see that you're still clinging to your false belief that everyone is a child of God. They're not.

In the sense that God gave birth to humanity (we are humans), he is our father.

Anything concerning "the Devil" is just pure nonsense. An all powerful, all loving God wouldn't allow the devil to run around recruiting people to rebel against God. The only way that would happen is if God wanted it to happen, since he has complete control over everything. If he wanted the Devil to happen, that completely contradicts his all loving nature.

I totally disagree. As I said, God's desire is that "the two become one" or that we become one with God by repenting of our sins, trusting in Christ and being "born again" by the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. God's desired covenant with His people is likened to a marriage covenant all throughout scripture. I'm a married man. I'm married to a woman. Have been for about 10 1/2 years now. Did you know that there are MILLIONS (possibly billions) of OTHER WOMEN out there? Should I just go chasing after them and then complain that there shouldn't be OTHER WOMEN to tempt me? I'll answer my own question...

No, I should not.

What I should do, instead, is be faithful to the one whom I'm in covenant with because I genuinely love her. Why then should it be any different when it comes to God and "other gods"? IOW, just because "other gods" exist (and they do exist), I shouldn't then complain that if they weren't there, then I wouldn't be tempted by them. No, what I should do is realize that there is something TERRIBLY WRONG WITHIN ME that causes me to break my covenant with my wife and chase after others. You should do the same thing with God. There is a devil. Big deal. Who said that you have to follow him? You don't. The choice is yours. The existence of Satan doesn't take away from God's love at all. His existence only gives you the opportunity to willfully choose Whom/whom you will genuinely love. Pssssttttt..."bachelorhood", in this sense, isn't an option. You'll love one and hate the other.

God resists the proud

Since when is pride in yourself a bad thing?

It's a focus on one's "self" that is the whole problem to begin with. Jesus calls those who will be His disciples to "deny themselves, take up their cross and follow Him". The first to go is "self". BTW, the "cross" was a form of execution. IOW, following Jesus could get you killed. Just thought that I'd mention that.

but gives grace to the humble.

I've asked God to reveal himself to me hundreds of times. I actually believed in it for years. I've done all any Christian can do to "feel" God (and I thought I did). Then I grew up intellectually and said to myself "You know what, maybe it's time to explore the possibility that you are completely wrong."

Once again, comments such as these pit your integrity against God's and force me to choose which to believe. Why did/do you want God to "reveal Himself"? For personal gain (a comment that you made to me privately causes me to consider this possibility) or so that you can lay down your life as a living sacrifice and enter into God's service?

Try repentance.

As I said earlier, I repented every single day for at least 10 years. I feel no different now and I haven't said a prayer in probably about a year now, subtracting a few prayers over the past few months where I sincerely said "God, if you are there, please stop me from this path I'm going down and show me that you exist."

So far, nadda.

He may be attempting to show you just that via the dialogue that you're presently engaged in. I know that the path you're presently going down is wrong, having travelled such a path myself for many years. Once again, I'm not going to try to convince you of such with fanciful arguments. The conviction of such must come from God Himself. Make sure that you don't miss it when it comes (and I trust that it has already come, many times in the past).

 

[Ishraqiyun]

This is a fallacious argument from authority.

The authority of experience? What else do we have? I'm not really trying to prove anything I'm simply stating how I currently experience and understand things. Some people might find what I say useful and others might not. I'm ok with that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole point of a 'Heaven' for the purposes of mankind was that it was a reward for those who followed God's creed while alive.

Heaven is a state and not so much a place. There is a sense you could call it a "reward" but only in the way you might say that getting a buzz is the reward of drinking a beer or that seeing is the reward for opening your eyes. A person takes their experience of heaven or hell with them from this life to the next.