Why Mary ?

[Beloved2018]

Actually about WHY (and in a negative context unfortunately)

I am utterly confused.

 

[Jedidah Mwende]

Not Catholic, but Mary was chosen by God to have Jesus. She deserves recognition.

Also, Catholics don't worship Mary, if that is what you think. They ask her to pray for them, same as you might ask someone to pray for a sick friend.

I have always wondered about this fact.and questioned if Mary is there then why do we have the Holyspirit?
Romans 8:25-26 and it says But if we hope for what we do not see,we wait for it patiently.26 in the same way the holy spirit helps us iin our weakness.For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the spirit him self interceds for us with groans too deep for words.27 and he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the spirit,because the spirit intercedes for the saints ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF GOD

 

[Beloved2018]

I have always wondered about this fact.and questioned if Mary is there then why do we have the Holyspirit?
Romans 8:25-26 and it says But if we hope for what we do not see,we wait for it patiently.26 in the same way the holy spirit helps us iin our weakness.For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the spirit him self interceds for us with groans too deep for words.27 and he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the spirit,because the spirit intercedes for the saints ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF GOD

The Holy Spirit, indeed the whole of the Trinity indwells the saints. The Trinity is their Home, their Universe, their Heaven, their Breath, their Bulwark, their Everything. As the Spirit moves, the saints move, He is united to them as the soul is united to the body (The Church loves to call the Holy Spirit the soul of the Body of Christ). 'I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one--as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.' John 17:21. Our 'Oneness' with Christ and the Holy Trinity, is a continuing theme throughout Scripture, most especially in the New Testament. So it's not a matter of, Mary (or any Christian) versus the Holy Spirit, but rather, we're to see in Mary, the Holy Spirit at work and not be surprised to find the Holy Spirit dwelling in Mary (and others).

 

[amariselle]

The Holy Spirit, indeed the whole of the Trinity indwells the saints. The Trinity is their Home, their Universe, their Heaven, their Breath, their Bulwark, their Everything. As the Spirit moves, the saints move, He is united to them as the soul is united to the body (The Church loves to call the Holy Spirit the soul of the Body of Christ). 'I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one--as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.' John 17:21. Our 'Oneness' with Christ and the Holy Trinity, is a continuing theme throughout Scripture, most especially in the New Testament. So it's not a matter of, Mary (or any Christian) versus the Holy Spirit, but rather, we're to see in Mary, the Holy Spirit at work and not be surprised to find the Holy Spirit dwelling in Mary (and others).

Where is it written in Scripture that the “whole of the Trinity indwells the saints”?

The Holy Spirit does indeed indwell all true, saved, born again believers in the Gospel, but the Father and the Son do not “indwell the saints.” Having ascended, Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven and will one day return to judge the living and the dead. (Acts 7:55-56, Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3)

Jesus specifically told His disciples that it was good He was returning to the Father so that He would send the Spirit. (John 16:7)

 

[timothyu]

but rather, we're to see in Mary, the Holy Spirit at work and not be surprised to find the Holy Spirit dwelling in Mary (and others).

An example yes, but how does that focus on and forward the Gospel of the Kingdom as commanded?

 

[icxn]

Where is it written in Scripture that the “whole of the Trinity indwells the saints”?

John 14:23 suggests as much:

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, “If a man love Me, he will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with him.​

 

[timothyu]

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, “If a man love Me, he will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with him.

He was referring to the New Jerusalem in the Kingdom.

 

[amariselle]

John 14:23 suggests as much:

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, “If a man love Me, he will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with him.​

Sorry, that does not support the belief that the entire Trinity indwells the saints, nor does that one verse contradict the several verses I shared which clearly make a distinction between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for believers and the reality of the location of the Father and the Son in Heaven/on high.

We know clearly from Scripture that Christ has ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father and that He will indeed return, just as He left. Those numerous verses make no sense if the entire Trinity is actually indwelling believers. This is why it’s dangerous to form theology from one verse that does not plainly state what is being claimed.

More vague or unclear verses in Scripture must be understood on light of what is quite clearly taught elsewhere in the Bible. It is important to remember that Scripture does not contradict itself.

 

[amariselle]

An example yes, but how does that focus on and forward the Gospel of the Kingdom as commanded?

It doesn’t. Mary’s elevated status in the Catholic Church is not Biblical. The information is available to all who would study this topic and compare it to everything the Bible says about Mary.

 

[icxn]

Sorry, that does not support the belief that the entire Trinity indwells the saints, nor does that one verse contradict the several verses I shared which clearly make a distinction between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for believers and the reality of the location of the Father and the Son in Heaven/on high.

If the Holy Spirit can be in multiple places at once, I mean in all those who believe, what prevents the other two persons of the Holy Trinity doing the same? And how are we to understand statements of locality for God? After all, the divine nature is uncircumscribed i.e. it is everywhere, omnipresent.

 

[amariselle]

If the Holy Spirit can be in multiple places at once, I mean in all those who believe, what prevents the other two persons of the Holy Trinity doing the same? And how are we to understand statements of locality for God? After all, the divine nature is uncircumscribed i.e. it is everywhere, omnipresent.

If one is to hold a belief that the Triune God, (that is, the three distinct “Persons” of the “Trinity”), “indwell all the saints”, then it must be supported clearly by Scripture.

This isn’t up to mere plausibility or conjecture. The Bible does in fact plainly tell us where Jesus and the Father are and it never once says anything about Jesus and the Father indwelling believers.

 

[Beloved2018]

Where is it written in Scripture that the “whole of the Trinity indwells the saints”?

John 17:21. We can start there.

The Holy Spirit does indeed indwell all true, saved, born again believers in the Gospel, but the Father and the Son do not “indwell the saints.”Having ascended, Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven and will one day return to judge the living and the dead. (Acts 7:55-56, Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3)

It's not an either/or. Christ both sits at the right hand of God the Father and He and the Father indwells the saints. The former does not nullify the latter.

Jesus specifically told His disciples that it was good He was returning to the Father so that He would send the Spirit. (John 16:7)

Yes, but He didn't mean it was because He or His Father were incapable of indwelling the saints. His indwelling is different from His experience of walking, talking, breathing ect. in Galilee 2000 thousand yrs ago. The Holy Spirit had work to do and awaited Christ's ascension to do it, 'Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you'. John 16:7 ----Notice that it says, 'the Helper will not come'.

 

[Beloved2018]

He was referring to the New Jerusalem in the Kingdom.

Explain please.

 

[Beloved2018]

Sorry, that does not support the belief that the entire Trinity indwells the saints, nor does that one verse contradict the several verses I shared which clearly make a distinction between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for believers and the reality of the location of the Father and the Son in Heaven/on high.

We know clearly from Scripture that Christ has ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father and that He will indeed return, just as He left. Those numerous verses make no sense if the entire Trinity is actually indwelling believers. This is why it’s dangerous to form theology from one verse that does not plainly state what is being claimed.

More vague or unclear verses in Scripture must be understood on light of what is quite clearly taught elsewhere in the Bible. It is important to remember that Scripture does not contradict itself.

I'm not forming a theology from one verse. I meant it when I said, it can be found throughout Scripture, but I don't find it edifying to just throw out a bunch of Scriptural proofs at people, since each verse needs to be looked at in it's context. And we can do that if you want.

I think perhaps in all due respect, your christology may be a bit off and that is why you're creating this false dilemma. You seem to think that because Christ is physically present at the Father's right hand that He does not indwell the saints. Nor am I saying that His indwelling is some sort of second coming.

The second person of the Trinity (the Son) assumed flesh. That word -assumed- is very important. At no time upon taking Adam's flesh, did the second person of the Trinity (the Son) break apart from the Father and the Holy Spirit in order to descend to earth. He was always united to them. God was always Trinitarian. Where the Father is, the Son and Holy Spirit are and visa versa. Again, this is very important, the Incarnation occurred by way of human flesh being united to God vis-vis the Son, through an assumption of humanity, not through a breaking apart of the Trinity so the Son could head to earth. So human flesh is now in communion with God, in the person of the Son. And we who are human beings, are in communion with Him; so when He died, He put to death our sins, not His own and He did this while we were still sinners, When He resurrected, He gave us new life, when He ascended and sat at the right hand of the Father, it was so that we could ascend and sit with Him in the heavenly places, as St Paul says, 4''But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." -Eph 2 and we too are partakers of the divine nature as St. Peter says, 3 "His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. -2 Pt 1

 

[Beloved2018]

If one is to hold a belief that the Triune God, (that is, the three distinct “Persons” of the “Trinity”), “indwell all the saints”, then it must be supported clearly by Scripture.

This isn’t up to mere plausibility or conjecture. The Bible does in fact plainly tell us where Jesus and the Father are and it never once says anything about Jesus and the Father indwelling believers.

One verse at a time. I'm a context girl. I don't like Scripture proofing. See my other two replies.

 

[amariselle]

One verse at a time. I'm a context girl. I don't like Scripture proofing. See my other two replies.

I’m not sure what you mean by “Scripture proofing”. We agree, however, that context is of utmost importance.

 

[amariselle]

I'm not forming a theology from one verse. I meant it when I said, it can be found throughout Scripture, but I don't find it edifying to just throw out a bunch of Scriptural proofs at people, since each verse needs to be looked at in it's context. And we can do that if you want.

I think perhaps in all due respect, your christology may be a bit off and that is why you're creating this false dilemma. You seem to think that because Christ is physically present at the Father's right hand that He does not indwell the saints. Nor am I saying that His indwelling is some sort of second coming.

The second person of the Trinity (the Son) assumed flesh. That word -assumed- is very important. At no time upon taking Adam's flesh, did the second person of the Trinity (the Son) break apart from the Father and the Holy Spirit in order to descend to earth. He was always united to them. God was always Trinitarian. Where the Father is, the Son and Holy Spirit are and visa versa. Again, this is very important, the Incarnation occurred by way of human flesh being united to God vis-vis the Son, through an assumption of humanity, not through a breaking apart of the Trinity so the Son could head to earth. So human flesh is now in communion with God, in the person of the Son. And we who are human beings, are in communion with Him; so when He died, He put to death our sins, not His own and He did this while we were still sinners, When He resurrected, He gave us new life, when He ascended and sat at the right hand of the Father, it was so that we could ascend and sit with Him in the heavenly places, as St Paul says, 4''But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." -Eph 2 and we too are partakers of the divine nature as St. Peter says, 3 "His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. -2 Pt 1

Thank you for your lengthy explanation. However, you seem to have completely misunderstood me.

1. At no point did I say that the Son (Christ) ever ceased to be in communion with the Father or the Holy Spirit. Of course He did not. So, your concern that my Christology is off in his regard is unwarranted.

2. The three “persons” of the Trinity are indeed in eternal communion, but Scrupture is clear that they are distinct from One Another. (The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, etc.)

3. There is a very real difference between saying that the three “Persons” of the Trinity are in communion with each other and saying that they ALL “indwell the saints.” No Scripture tells us that the Father or the Son are indwelling true believers, Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit does so and came at Pentecost after Jesus ascended into Heaven. (And as He promised).

4. I do understand the Gospel, but thank you.

 

[Jedidah Mwende]

The Holy Spirit, indeed the whole of the Trinity indwells the saints. The Trinity is their Home, their Universe, their Heaven, their Breath, their Bulwark, their Everything. As the Spirit moves, the saints move, He is united to them as the soul is united to the body (The Church loves to call the Holy Spirit the soul of the Body of Christ). 'I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one--as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.' John 17:21. Our 'Oneness' with Christ and the Holy Trinity, is a continuing theme throughout Scripture, most especially in the New Testament. So it's not a matter of, Mary (or any Christian) versus the Holy Spirit, but rather, we're to see in Mary, the Holy Spirit at work and not be surprised to find the Holy Spirit dwelling in Mary (and others).

Yes i agree with what your saying 100% and i agree Mary should be recognized what i constantly question and actually question other Catholics about, is about this bit in their prayers
"Holy Mary Mother of God Pray for us sinners now and the hour of our death Amen" why?? when the scripture is clear about prayer and the Holy spirit i quote again Romans 8 26-27 In the same the Holy spirit helps us in our weakness.For we do not know how we ought to pray,but the spirit him self intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. Rem the Holy spirit is the spirit of God. He is God He is a person not a power the Bible describes the Holy Spirit as a person, not a mere force. He can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30), And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.. He has a will (1 Corinthians 12:4-7). He uses His mind to search the deep things of God (1 Corinthians 2:10)The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.. And He has fellowship with believers (2 Corinthians 13:14)May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.. Clearly, the Spirit is a person, just as the Father and the Son are persons. and not in any of these verses about fellowship is MARY MENTIONED NOT A SINGLE ONE..
Now Jesus tells his disciples in John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands.16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—....Now i have a right in the eyes of my Father(God )He tells me that he sent me the holy spirit who will help me in my prayers, The holy spirit who is going to be my guide and my advocate...No doubt Mary is favored amongest all women i respect that BUT SHE IS STILL HUMAN, SHE IS STILL FLESH..Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.. YES SO WHY IS SHE FEATURED IN PRAYER

 

[Beloved2018]

I’m not sure what you mean by “Scripture proofing”. We agree, however, that context is of utmost importance.

Just that I like to talk about one or two verses at a time. So when someone asks me (such as yourself), 'Show me in Scripture...' , I'll only cite a verse or two and then go from there.

 

[Beloved2018]

Thank you for your lengthy explanation. However, you seem to have completely misunderstood me.

1. At no point did I say that the Son (Christ) ever ceased to be in communion with the Father or the Holy Spirit. Of course He did not. So, your concern that my Christology is off in his regard is unwarranted.

Then why are you saying that because He is sitting at the Father's right hand, therefore He does not indwell the saints.

2. The three “persons” of the Trinity are indeed in eternal communion, but Scrupture is clear that they are distinct from One Another. (The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, etc.)

They are distinct, but not separate.

3. There is a very real difference between saying that the three “Persons” of the Trinity are in communion with each other and saying that they ALL “indwell the saints.” No Scripture tells us that the Father or the Son are indwelling true believers, Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit does so and came at Pentecost after Jesus ascended into Heaven. (And as He promised).

See above. I am very confused as to why you are creating this dichotomy.

4. I do understand the Gospel, but thank you.

Okay. I don't want to accuse anyone of not understanding the Gospel. We're all here to learn.