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Those with eternal life do not stop believing.What if someone stops believing?
But Paul wrote in Colossians 1:21-23 that Christ has now reconciled them to The Father in order to present them before Him holy and blameless IF they remain steadfast in the faith.Well, I have personally known only a handfull of people who have said they stopped believing. I have no way of verifying what they stopped believing or whether or not they ever possessed etverlasting life, but all of them had symptoms of a negative reaction to leglistic doctrines. I have not seen one of them for many years, but the last time I saw him he seemd to have recovered and I never thought of him as being lost or as having given up his trust in Christ. I have had regular contact with three others. The lifestyle (and beliefs/opinions) of two of them would likely lead a fruit inspector (which I am not one) to conclude that they are not saved and never were saved. The lifestyle (and beliefs/opinions) of the third is harder for me to read.
But I can say that when a person puts his trust in Christ, Jesus gives him everlasting life (this is supported by many Scriptures). This means he will never perish (per Jesus in John 10:28 and other verses). If he perishes (ostensibly because he stops believing), then the life he received from Christ was not everlasting life. In the case of this person who perishes, we can't conclude Jesus was mistaken that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish, so we must conclude that Jesus never gave him everlasting life in the first place. By extension, since we know that Jesus gives everlasting life to everyone who trusts in Him (John 3:16), we can conclude that nobody that perishes ever put their trust in Christ.
That's the best I can do to answer that question.
| Strong's Lexicon apeitheó: Disobey, be disobedient, refuse to believe Original Word: ἀπειθέωPart of Speech: Verb Transliteration: apeitheó Pronunciation: ah-pay-THAY-oh Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o) Definition: Disobey, be disobedient, refuse to believe Meaning: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity. Word Origin: Derived from the Greek prefix "a-" (not) and "peithō" (to persuade or obey), meaning "not to be persuaded" or "to disobey." Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: The concept of disobedience in the Hebrew Bible is often captured by words like מָרָה (marah - Strong's H4784) meaning "to rebel" or "to be disobedient," and סָרַר (sarar - Strong's H5637) meaning "to be stubborn" or "to turn away." Usage: The verb ἀπειθέω (apeitheó) is used in the New Testament to describe a state of disbelief or disobedience, particularly in relation to God's commands or the gospel message. It conveys a willful rejection or refusal to be persuaded by divine truth. This term often highlights the moral and spiritual rebellion against God's authority. |
Salvation according to the Bible, is a gift from God and is not dependent on our works or continual cooperation but on God's grace alone. Ephesians 2:8-9 clarifies that "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one can boast." This passage makes it clear that salvation is not something we can lose by failing to cooperate; it's a gift that comes through faith in Jesus Christ.Why should I be afraid when my salvation only depends on whether or not I continue to cooperate with God? Adam was spiritually alive before he became spiritually dead. And James 5:19-20 also indicates that a believer can be in danger of the death of their soul.
“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
James 5:19-20 NASB1995
2 Timothy 2:13Yes but my answer is based on my belief that I will never turn away from Christ or deny Him. That doesn’t mean that I’m not capable of turning away or denying Him. What Paul’s statement proves is that everyone including true believers are capable of turning away from Christ. That’s what 2 Timothy 2 is all about, it’s Paul explaining the importance of persevering which is precisely why he quoted Jesus from Matthew 10 because Jesus was giving the exact same message to His twelve disciples.
I explain all of this in detail in this video.
Ya know I can’t help but say that people keep quoting Ephesians 2:8-9 but then they translate 2 Timothy 2:13 to say the exact opposite of what Ephesians 2:8 says. And no that passage doesn’t say that you can’t lose your salvation because faith is a requirement for receiving it.Salvation according to the Bible, is a gift from God and is not dependent on our works or continual cooperation but on God's grace alone. Ephesians 2:8-9 clarifies that "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one can boast." This passage makes it clear that salvation is not something we can lose by failing to cooperate; it's a gift that comes through faith in Jesus Christ.
It literally says that if he turns back his souls will be saved from death. Are you telling me that his souls will still be saved from death if he doesn’t turn back?Regarding James 5:19-20, it is important to recognize that this passage speaks about believers who have strayed from the truth, but the context is about restoration and helping them return to the faith. It doesn't imply that salvation is lost, but rather that the person's spiritual state is endangered. The goal is to bring them back to the truth, not to suggest their salvation can be lost..
Ok so you interpret verse 13 to say the exact opposite of verse 12? What does it mean in verse 12 when Paul says “He will deny us”? You really should watch the video where I explain all of this in detail.2 Timothy 2:13
"If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."
This verse emphasizes that even if we are unfaithful or turn away, God remains faithful to us. His faithfulness is not dependent on ours, and He will never deny His commitment to us.
The passage in James 5:19-20 does indicate the importance of turning back to the truth in order to save someone’s soul from death, but it does not suggest that salvation is lost in a way that cannot be restored. The key here is understanding that these verses are addressing the restoration of someone who has strayed from the faith. It’s not saying that salvation can be completely lost and cannot be regained. The emphasis is on the restoring of someone who has gone astray, and that through this process, their soul can be saved from spiritual death.It literally says that if he turns back his souls will be saved from death. Are you telling me that his souls will still be saved from death if he doesn’t turn back?
It seems like there’s some confusion about how Ephesians 2:8-9 and 2 Timothy 2:13 relate to each other. Let’s clarify both passages in light of the broader biblical context.Ya know I can’t help but say that people keep quoting Ephesians 2:8-9 but then they translate 2 Timothy 2:13 to say the exact opposite of what Ephesians 2:8 says. And no that passage doesn’t say that you can’t lose your salvation because faith is a requirement for receiving it.
Lemmie ask you this -Ya know I can’t help but say that people keep quoting Ephesians 2:8-9 but then they translate 2 Timothy 2:13 to say the exact opposite of what Ephesians 2:8 says. And no that passage doesn’t say that you can’t lose your salvation because faith is a requirement for receiving it.
I’ve never said that anyone who has lost their salvation can’t regain it by turning back to Christ.The passage in James 5:19-20 does indicate the importance of turning back to the truth in order to save someone’s soul from death, but it does not suggest that salvation is lost in a way that cannot be restored.
If it couldn’t be completely lost then their soul could never be in danger of death. If James taught salvation can never be completely lost then he wouldn’t be saying that a believers soul can be in danger of death because those are contradictory statements. They’re literally polar opposites.The key here is understanding that these verses are addressing the restoration of someone who has strayed from the faith. It’s not saying that salvation can be completely lost and cannot be regained.
Their soul was already saved from death the first time they believed. Now that they’ve turned away their soul is once again in danger of death, and if they turn back to the faith their soul will once again be saved. If they were already a believer before they turned away then their soul was saved at that time. Amen?The emphasis is on the restoring of someone who has gone astray, and that through this process, their soul can be saved from spiritual death.
Not according to verse 27?Also, consider passages like John 10:28-29, which assures believers of eternal security: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." This suggests that those who are truly saved by grace are secure in Christ, even if they stray, because their salvation is ultimately dependent on God's grace, not on their own actions.
| Strong's Lexicon harpazó: To seize, snatch, take away by force Original Word: ἁρπάζωPart of Speech: Verb Transliteration: harpazó Pronunciation: har-pad'-zo Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo) Definition: To seize, snatch, take away by force Meaning: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery. Word Origin: Derived from a primary root; akin to 138 (haireomai, meaning "to take for oneself"). Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H1497 (gāzal): To tear away, seize, plunder - H8610 (tāphas): To seize, capture, grasp Usage: The Greek verb "harpazó" conveys the idea of seizing or snatching away with force or suddenness. It is often used in contexts where something is taken quickly or forcefully, sometimes implying a rescue or deliverance. In the New Testament, it is frequently associated with divine intervention or the power of God. |
No that’s not what it says because we are expected to have faith in order to receive grace.This clearly emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, not based on works or human effort.
Then why FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DID PAUL WRITE IF WE DENY HIM, HE WILL DENY US? Where did Paul get this from?It seems like there’s some confusion about how Ephesians 2:8-9 and 2 Timothy 2:13 relate to each other. Let’s clarify both passages in light of the broader biblical context.
Ephesians 2:8-9 says:"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one can boast."
This clearly emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, not based on works or human effort. It’s through faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved, and this salvation is not dependent on our own actions to maintain it. This is foundational in understanding that salvation is not something that can be lost by failing to be faithful.
2 Timothy 2:13 says:"If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."
This verse reassures us that even when we are faithless, God remains faithful. It’s not that God’s promises are dependent on our faithfulness, but rather that He is always faithful to His word. This is a reminder that salvation is not ultimately based on our ability to remain faithful but on God’s unchanging nature and promises. Even when we falter, God does not.
So, Ephesians 2:8-9 and 2 Timothy 2:13 are not in contradiction with each other. Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that salvation is by grace through faith and not based on works. 2 Timothy 2:13 shows us that God remains faithful even when we are not, highlighting that our salvation is secure because of His faithfulness, not our ability to always stay faithful.
Faith is required for salvation, but salvation is secured by God’s grace through that faith, not by our own efforts to maintain it. If someone were to truly lose their salvation, it would suggest that God's faithfulness is dependent on our actions, which contradicts verses like John 10:28-29, where Jesus assures that no one can snatch us out of His hand.
So, while faith is vital, our salvation is ultimately grounded in God's unchanging faithfulness, not our fluctuating human faithfulness.
IF WE DENY HIM, HE WILL DENY US.Lemmie ask you this -
When you screwed up royally with your father here on earth did you cease to become your father's son?
Did he forgive you and possibly even chastise you?
Are you any less of your father's son?
Spiritual birth can only occur once just as physical birth.
Was Adam spiritually dead before he ate from the tree of knowledge?Lemmie ask you this -
When you screwed up royally with your father here on earth did you cease to become your father's son?
Did he forgive you and possibly even chastise you?
Are you any less of your father's son?
Spiritual birth can only occur once just as physical birth.
Ok let’s use your same analogy with your dad. Would your dad throw someone into the lake of fire for refusing to believe in him?Lemmie ask you this -
When you screwed up royally with your father here on earth did you cease to become your father's son?
Did he forgive you and possibly even chastise you?
Are you any less of your father's son?
Spiritual birth can only occur once just as physical birth.
I already gave the answer to the "if they continue in the faith" POV (i.e., the Perseverance of the Saints Doctrine) in my previous post, though I did not state it explicitly. So here it is explicitly... Nobody who believes in Jesus and has received eternal life from Him ever changes their mind and wants to go back to being lost and destined for hell. If they face all the persecution in the world, all it will do is prove the genuineness of their faith (1 Pe 1:7). As I said before, everlasting life lasts forever, otherwise it is not everlasting.But Paul wrote in Colossians 1:21-23 that Christ has now reconciled them to The Father in order to present them before Him holy and blameless IF they remain steadfast in the faith.
“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
Colossians 1:21-23 NASB1995
So they’re reconciled now, and on Judgement Day He will present them holy and blameless before The Father, IF they continue in the faith.
I thought I had written a post on ἀπειθέω in John 3:36, but I couldn't find it. Maybe I posted it on another forum. Anyway, the verse is contrasting one person who believes in Jesus and has eternal life with another person who refuses to believe in Jesus and will not see life and faces God's wrath. It's not about one person who believes today and disobeys tomorrow and loses eternal life as a result.There’s also John 3:36
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.””
John 3:36 NASB1995
Now the term “does not obey” in this verse is often translated as “does not believe” or “rejects”. And the result is that person will not receive eternal life and God’s wrath abides on him. This would suggest that if a believer stops believing then this verse applies to them.
Strong's Lexicon
apeitheó: Disobey, be disobedient, refuse to believeOriginal Word: ἀπειθέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apeitheó
Pronunciation: ah-pay-THAY-oh
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o)
Definition: Disobey, be disobedient, refuse to believe
Meaning: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.
Word Origin: Derived from the Greek prefix "a-" (not) and "peithō" (to persuade or obey), meaning "not to be persuaded" or "to disobey."
Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: The concept of disobedience in the Hebrew Bible is often captured by words like מָרָה (marah - Strong's H4784) meaning "to rebel" or "to be disobedient," and סָרַר (sarar - Strong's H5637) meaning "to be stubborn" or "to turn away."
Usage: The verb ἀπειθέω (apeitheó) is used in the New Testament to describe a state of disbelief or disobedience, particularly in relation to God's commands or the gospel message. It conveys a willful rejection or refusal to be persuaded by divine truth. This term often highlights the moral and spiritual rebellion against God's authority.
I just searched the NKJV for all the instances of "eternal life" OR "everlasting life" in my Bible software. There were 45 verses in total (see below). Most of the instances did not have a specific timeframe associated with them (yellow text). But a few indicated possesion of eternal life in the present (green text), and a few had a future/escatological focus (red text). Nobody argues that there is no future aspect of eternal life (because most of our eternal lives will occur after the deaths of our physical bodies). And most people acknowledge that the lives we will live will be much different after we shed our clothes of flesh (1 Jn 3:2). But making the green text verses below refer to a promise that one day a person will receive eternal life (if he obeys to the end) is to turn the gramar on its head and applies a preconceived context that does not exist.See the way I view the passages that speak of having eternal life is I see it as a current status. If you’re in Christ you have it but if you turn away from Him then you don’t have it. So you lost what you would’ve received if you hadn’t turned away from Him. Because there are passages that say we have eternal life, there are passages that say we will receive eternal life, and there are passages that say we have the hope or promise of eternal life. So eternal life isn’t only spoken of in the scriptures as one already possessing it.
So how does this line up with 2 Timothy 2:12? If we deny Him, He will deny us. Why is Paul warning Timothy of something that you claim is impossible for either of them to do?So here it is explicitly... Nobody who believes in Jesus and has received eternal life from Him ever changes their mind and wants to go back to being lost and destined for hell. If they face all the persecution in the world, all it will do is prove the genuineness of their faith (1 Pe 1:7). As I said before, everlasting life lasts forever, otherwise it is not everlasting.
Ok let’s use your same analogy with your dad. Would your dad throw someone into the lake of fire for refusing to believe in him?
Do you see how that comparison doesn’t work?
2 Timothy 2:12 ("If we deny Him, He will deny us") refers to a believer’s commitment and endurance in faith. If someone completely renounces their faith, they are essentially denying their relationship with Christ. Denying Christ in this context refers to a rejection of the faith—turning away from Christ entirely, which is a serious issue. This could be understood as apostasy, where someone willingly and deliberately rejects Christ after knowing Him.IF WE DENY HIM, HE WILL DENY US.
What does it mean?
Your explanation of verse 13 directly contradicts verse 12.
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