Why Jesus died?

[sentipente]

To understand why Jesus died, rather why He was killed, one has to understand the circumstances that led to His death.

The difference between dying and being killed is a significant one. We have long believed that sin ushered death into the human experience when the truth is that it was murder that sin ushered into the human experience. Dying is part of the cycle of life; murder is not. This misunderstanding arises from not fully comprehending what the Creator meant when He told Adam that he would die if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. As long as Adam remained loyal to the government of the Universe he would never deliberately go contrary to the policies of that government and would never be in an antagonistic position to it. This is what happened when Lucifer tried to overcome the "cloud ceiling" that prevented him from being "like the Most High." Fortunately for him he challenged a superior being who only had to exile him to deal with that challenge. The death that resulted after Adam and Eve ate the fruit occurred when Cain killed Abel. Adam and Eve's sin was in destroying the cohesive fabric of human cooperation. Eve refused to consult with Adam to settle a conflict in her mind and Adam abandoned his wife when he was confronted by his friend and Master.

It was this division that resulted in sin and whenever two forces of equal power and authority vie for singular space one will ultimately be killed by the other.

Christ had to die because He became sin for us. He took on what sin represented -- seperation, fragmentation and murder. He did not die to save us. That He accomplished through the life He lived in which He revealed the fulness of the character of His Father.

It is important to note that He did not merely die; He was killed. As the eternal God he could not die and if His death were needed for our salvation we could not be saved. But sin represents not the entrance of death but the desire to inflict harm on your own kind because they are different from you rather than to work together in harmony. It is no accident that in His final prayer Christ prayed that we may be one.

 

[moicherie]

"But sin represents not the entrance of death but the desire to inflict harm on your own kind because they are different from you rather than to work together in harmony. It is no accident that in His final prayer Christ prayed that we may be one."

But we don't want to be one, we like our differences - cultural, ethnic, racial allegience ups allegience to God's will any day hence Christianity's bad record when it comes to unity.

 

[Avonia]

How beautifully written. Senti, this is the first post I've seen of yours that's more than a line or two. I hope you do this more often. Whether or not people agree with you, they will at least begin to understand more about you.

 

[AndrewK788]

How beautifully written. Senti, this is the first post I've seen of yours that's more than a line or two. I hope you do this more often. Whether or not people agree with you, they will at least begin to understand more about you.

Yes, I like the longer posts too Senti. It's easier for me to understand where you're coming from. Anyway, I'll write more in here later but I have a history final this morning so I need to be heading out.

God bless!

 

[AndrewK788]

Here's a question:

Senti, are you saying that Christ's death was not what saved us? In other words, he could have lived the life he lived, ascended to heaven and never died on the cross and we would be saved just the same?

 

[sentipente]

That's exactly what I am saying.

 

[AndrewK788]

That's exactly what I am saying.

Okay, one more question then. I'm trying to understand this.

If Christ hadn't died, what would have saved us? Wouldn't we still be under the old covenant Law which would result in death? It seems by what you're implying is that by Christ's good life we are saved. But how does that save us? I suppose setting an example we follow? But if he hadn't died for us, it wouldn't have mattered what type of life we lived for we are still under the Law, and thus are condemned by it as well.

How could it be any differently?

 

[sentipente]

Andrew, you need to begin with a consideration of how it came to be that we needed to be saved. You say that the old covenant law brought death. Where was that law when Cain died? It was not around so that theory fails.

 

[Avonia]

Okay, one more question then. I'm trying to understand this.

If Christ hadn't died, what would have saved us? Wouldn't we still be under the old covenant Law which would result in death? It seems by what you're implying is that by Christ's good life we are saved. But how does that save us? I suppose setting an example we follow? But if he hadn't died for us, it wouldn't have mattered what type of life we lived for we are still under the Law, and thus are condemned by it as well.

How could it be any differently?

Praise be! Mini-praise to Andrew and Senti! There's a real conversation going on here. Andrew is really asking. Not just asking to lead somewhere. Hell is freezing over as we speak . . .

 

[AndrewK788]

Fair enough. I see where you could get that argument. But ultimately Christ had to take on the sins of the world to save us. Because at that time, the Law did condemn. Had he not taken on the sins of the world, we would still be held under the Law and death? Where does the Bible point differently?

(it's been good debating with you Senti but I'm off for a couple hours. History final this morning... )

 

[sentipente]

I think we need to note that this drama was driven by circumstances; it was not driven by the Bible. The Bible is a human record of the drama that has unfolded; it is not the script that the protagonists followed.

Could you from first principles demonstrate how we would still be held under the Law and death had he not "taken on the sins of the world?"

 

[mva1985]

Here's a question:

Senti, are you saying that Christ's death was not what saved us? In other words, he could have lived the life he lived, ascended to heaven and never died on the cross and we would be saved just the same?

This is false.

 

[mva1985]

Eph. 1
"7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding."

 

[mva1985]

Eph. 2
"11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ."

 

[mva1985]

Colossians 1:20
"and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

 

[mva1985]

Hebs. 9
"21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

 

[AndrewK788]

Colossians 1:20
"and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

I agree. I would have continued with this argument earlier, but I had some final exams to take care of this morning so my time was cut short. I understand where Senti gets his argument, and it works...until you see what the Bible says about it. I'm not saying Senti's opinion is not biblically based, but until I see support from the Bible that Christ did not have to die, I will have none that line of thinking in my own belief.

 

[StormyOne]

Hebs. 9
"21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

thank you for reminding us that there is no thinking inside the box...

 

[sentipente]

MVA, I prefer to have intelligent discourse here as compared to the mindless recitation of biblical texts that is so commonplace among some Christians. Most Christians, including you I suppose, do not accept Paul's view that women should keep silence in the church. Paul is not the final authority on truth.

 

[mva1985]

I agree. I would have continued with this argument earlier, but I had some final exams to take care of this morning so my time was cut short. I understand where Senti gets his argument, and it works...until you see what the Bible says about it. I'm not saying Senti's opinion is not biblically based, but until I see support from the Bible that Christ did not have to die, I will have none that line of thinking in my own belief.

I believe you have made a wise choice in using the Bible as your final standard.