Why is this not being taught in Church?

[Guojing]

That's not related to my post.

"I don't know that" meant I don't know that, that which I quoted.

Your post may be correct, yes or no, but if you type out the words instead of the reference when the reference is short anyway, that would help a great deal - the references do not render on my screen, nor on some of the cell phone screens....

Its okay then, the post of mine where you replied to was addressed to another anyway.

 

[Guojing]

If that were the case, gentiles would not have yet received the gospel because the Jewish nation has not yet accepted Jesus as their Messiah.

The better explanation is that Peter and the other apostles had not yet stepped out to fully obey the Great Commission. Their own prejudice kept them in place.

If you'll notice, the Holy Spirit had sprinted ahead of Peter and had already enabled Cornelius. Cornelius didn't even hear all of Peter's sermon. As Peter stated in the first part of his sermon, Cornelius already knew the ministry of Jesus up until His crucifixion. All he needed to hear was that Jesus had been resurrected. At that, Cornelius began speaking in tongues--just as the disciples had in the upper room--before Peter had even stopped talking.

Not even that event got the Hebraic apostles out of preaching only to Jews. The primary function of Saul's persecution was to chase the Hellenist Christians out of Jerusalem, and it was the Hellenists who carried the gospel to the Samaritans, to outcasts like eunuchs (see Isaiah 56), and to the gentiles. That's why the hub of evangelism moved away from Jerusalem to Antioch. If not for Saul, the gospel might have taken much longer to start spreading (notice that Saul, too, was a Hellenist).

The Hebraic Christians in Jerusalem never truly grokked the expanse of the Great Commission. Even when Peter visited Paul in Galatia, he still didn't quite get it.

Peter and the rest spent 40 days being taught by the resurrected Christ about the Kingdom of God (Acts 1:3), I would trust them to have the full understanding

There is another explanation, the Gospel of the Kingdom was postponed after Israel rejected Jesus as their King for the final time by stoning Stephen.

God in his mercy saved Saul and revealed to him a new Gospel, the gospel of the grace of God, and commanded him to reach the Gentiles with it. Israel as a nation has been set aside by God until the Tribulation.

Romans 9 to 11 has the details.

 

[RDKirk]

Peter and the rest spent 40 days being taught by the resurrected Christ about the Kingdom of God (Acts 1:3), I would trust them to have the full understanding

And yet, Peter hesitated to go to Cornelius, twice telling Jesus, "No."

And then when criticized by those who had been taught by the resurrected Christ about the Kingdom of God, he had to carefully explain that the Holy Spirit gave him no choice in the matter.

If Peter and the other had had a full understanding, those scenes would not have occurred. Jesus would have said, "Go to Cornelius" and Peter would have instantly gone. And he would not have had to explain why to the rest of them.

There is another explanation, the Gospel of the Kingdom was postponed after Israel rejected Jesus as their King for the final time by stoning Stephen.

The gospel was not postponed by the stoning of Stephen, it was propelled by the stoning of Stephen. It forced the Hellenists like Thomas out of Jerusalem where they began evangelizing those outside the Jewish center. The Hellenist Christians were actively evangelizing non-Jews from Antioch more than a decade before Paul began his work. Remember that Paul spent 14 years in Arabia after his conversion and before he began his own ministry.

 

[Monna]

How about this simple explanation:

The Great Commission was for the believing Jews to preach to non believing Jews.

Once the Jewish nation accept their Messiah, THEN, the Gentiles can be reached.

Please note what Paul writes in Colossians 1:

vs 5-6: "...the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace." (my emphasis)

vs 23b: "This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant." (again, my emphasis)​

Putting your statement alongside these words of Paul's we have a few options:
1. Paul was wrong
2. One cannot take the Word of God (or signifcant statements in it) literally
3. The gospel Paul is speaking of is not the same as the one to which you are refering (and note that there are 6 or 7 "gospels" mentioned in the NT), in which case you need to clarify how the gospel you refer to is different from Paul's.
4. "the whole world" only refers to the "Roman world" (though much more was already known, even to the Romans, Greeks, and Jews), and "heaven" is very limited in extent to the same geographic area (whereas for David and most other peoples of that time considered the heavens to be the entire extent of the night sky, which was greater than any part one could see at one moment because it apparently rotated around the world ... remember it was already known in Jesus time that the world was round, and mathematicians had calculated its circumference!).
5. or, just possbly, your explanationt, and/or the argument you are refering to, has a flaw somewhere.

 

[Guojing]

Please note what Paul writes in Colossians 1:

vs 5-6: "...the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace." (my emphasis)

vs 23b: "This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant." (again, my emphasis)​

Putting your statement alongside these words of Paul's we have a few options:
1. Paul was wrong
2. One cannot take the Word of God (or signifcant statements in it) literally
3. The gospel Paul is speaking of is not the same as the one to which you are refering (and note that there are 6 or 7 "gospels" mentioned in the NT), in which case you need to clarify how the gospel you refer to is different from Paul's.
4. "the whole world" only refers to the "Roman world" (though much more was already known, even to the Romans, Greeks, and Jews), and "heaven" is very limited in extent to the same geographic area (whereas for David and most other peoples of that time considered the heavens to be the entire extent of the night sky, which was greater than any part one could see at one moment because it apparently rotated around the world ... remember it was already known in Jesus time that the world was round, and mathematicians had calculated its circumference!).
5. or, just possbly, your explanationt, and/or the argument you are refering to, has a flaw somewhere.

do you accept that there is a distinction between the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of the grace of God?

if you do, then it becomes clear what my point is

 

[Guojing]

And yet, Peter hesitated to go to Cornelius, twice telling Jesus, "No."

And then when criticized by those who had been taught by the resurrected Christ about the Kingdom of God, he had to carefully explain that the Holy Spirit gave him no choice in the matter.

If Peter and the other had had a full understanding, those scenes would not have occurred. Jesus would have said, "Go to Cornelius" and Peter would have instantly gone. And he would not have had to explain why to the rest of them.



The gospel was not postponed by the stoning of Stephen, it was propelled by the stoning of Stephen. It forced the Hellenists like Thomas out of Jerusalem where they began evangelizing those outside the Jewish center. The Hellenist Christians were actively evangelizing non-Jews from Antioch more than a decade before Paul began his work. Remember that Paul spent 14 years in Arabia after his conversion and before he began his own ministry.

you must understand Peter perspective. Jesus commanded him in Matthew 10:5 not to bring the gospel of the kingdom to the gentiles.

the resurrected Christ himself reminded him again in Matthew gc to teach others to “obey all that he commanded them”

Putting these 2 incidents together, if you were Peter in acts 10, you will just be as confused as him.

 

[RDKirk]

do you accept that there is a distinction between the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of the grace of God?

if you do, then it becomes clear what my point is

Please define that distinction.

 

[RDKirk]

you must understand Peter perspective. Jesus commanded him in Matthew 10:5 not to bring the gospel of the kingdom to the gentiles.

the resurrected Christ himself reminded him again in Matthew gc to teach others to “obey all that he commanded them”

Putting these 2 incidents together, if you were Peter in acts 10, you will just be as confused as him.

I'm not the person who said they already had "full understanding."

You're the one who said that.

 

[Guojing]

I'm not the person who said they already had "full understanding."

You're the one who said that.

If you believed Peter had partial understanding, then yes, I can understand how you will view what went down in early Acts differently from me.

 

[Guojing]

Please define that distinction.

I will let scripture distinguish them for me.

GOK: Jeremiah 23:5-6, repeated to Mary by the Angel Gabriel in Luke 1:32-33, and elaborated by Zechariah, father of John the Baptist in Luke 1:67-79

GOG: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

 

[rhern]

If that were the case, gentiles would not have yet received the gospel because the Jewish nation has not yet accepted Jesus as their Messiah.

The better explanation is that Peter and the other apostles had not yet stepped out to fully obey the Great Commission. Their own prejudice kept them in place.

If you'll notice, the Holy Spirit had sprinted ahead of Peter and had already enabled Cornelius. Cornelius didn't even hear all of Peter's sermon. As Peter stated in the first part of his sermon, Cornelius already knew the ministry of Jesus up until His crucifixion. All he needed to hear was that Jesus had been resurrected. At that, Cornelius began speaking in tongues--just as the disciples had in the upper room--before Peter had even stopped talking.

Not even that event got the Hebraic apostles out of preaching only to Jews. The primary function of Saul's persecution was to chase the Hellenist Christians out of Jerusalem, and it was the Hellenists who carried the gospel to the Samaritans, to outcasts like eunuchs (see Isaiah 56), and to the gentiles. That's why the hub of evangelism moved away from Jerusalem to Antioch. If not for Saul, the gospel might have taken much longer to start spreading (notice that Saul, too, was a Hellenist).

The Hebraic Christians in Jerusalem never truly grokked the expanse of the Great Commission. Even when Peter visited Paul in Galatia, he still didn't quite get it.

The man is correct; here are the events:

The 2nd coming of the Lord is given in detail in Zechariah 14:
Jesus said to His apostles, You will Judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
God's time frame is 7000 year.
we are now at the end of the 6000; 2nd Coming is any time.
next comes the 1000 year reign of The Lord.

Jesus came to fulfill the promises to the fathers of O. T.
The Jews continued following the Law even after the resurrection

Christians are of the Body of Christ, Jesus is the Head.
our destiny is heaven.

I'll be happy to answer your questions and give you all the verses from the Bible.

hope to hear from you

 

[Monna]

You will Judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

This is indeed what He said. But I am curious to know what those 12 are. Can somebody list them please.
... Levi was a son of Jacob, but because his male descendents were the priestly class, getting a lot of their food from sacrifices, they did not get a portion of land in the occupation of Israel. Joseph was a son of Jacob ... but no land was allocated to him in the subdivision of Canaan. From the time of Judges on, there is no reference to the Tribe of Joseph. Instead, there are two tribes named Ephraim and Manasseh, who were NOT sons of Jacob, but were sons of Joseph. Each of them received designated geographical areas in "the land flowing with milk and honey."

In Genesis 48:5 we read of Jacob saying to Joseph “Now then, your two sons born to you in Egypt before I came to you here will be reckoned as mine; Ephraim and Manasseh will be mine, just as Reuben and Simeon are mine..."

And in Joshua 14:4 we read "for Joseph’s descendants had become two tribes—Manasseh and Ephraim. The Levites received no share of the land but only towns to live in, with pasturelands for their flocks and herds." Although the Levites received no share of the land but only towns to live in...they are still counted as a Tribe of Israel.

We therefore have 13, not 12 tribes. So which are the 12 that will be judged? I am confused. Give scripture reference please, if you know of one.

I apologise if this is viewed by some as a tangent .... but it is something I have been curious about for some time.

 

[Charlie24]

This is indeed what He said. But I am curious to know what those 12 are. Can somebody list them please.
... Levi was a son of Jacob, but because his male descendents were the priestly class, getting a lot of their food from sacrifices, they did not get a portion of land in the occupation of Israel. Joseph was a son of Jacob ... but no land was allocated to him in the subdivision of Canaan. From the time of Judges on, there is no reference to the Tribe of Joseph. Instead, there are two tribes named Ephraim and Manasseh, who were NOT sons of Jacob, but were sons of Joseph. Each of them received designated geographical areas in "the land flowing with milk and honey."

In Genesis 48:5 we read of Jacob saying to Joseph “Now then, your two sons born to you in Egypt before I came to you here will be reckoned as mine; Ephraim and Manasseh will be mine, just as Reuben and Simeon are mine..."

And in Joshua 14:4 we read "for Joseph’s descendants had become two tribes—Manasseh and Ephraim. The Levites received no share of the land but only towns to live in, with pasturelands for their flocks and herds." Although the Levites received no share of the land but only towns to live in...they are still counted as a Tribe of Israel.

We therefore have 13, not 12 tribes. So which are the 12 that will be judged? I am confused. Give scripture reference please, if you know of one.

I apologise if this is viewed by some as a tangent .... but it is something I have been curious about for some time.

Not trying to butt in, thought maybe you would like to see it for yourself.

In Ezekiel 48 you will find the future division of land to the 13 tribes. Ezekiel gives, or I should say Christ gives the exact borders of each tribe.

48:1-8 gives the names of the 7 tribes north of the Oblation, while 23-29 give the 5 tribes south of the Oblation.

The 13th tribe of the Levites will have a portion of there own that surrounds the Millennial temple.

 

[rhern]

This is indeed what He said. But I am curious to know what those 12 are. Can somebody list them please.
... Levi was a son of Jacob, but because his male descendents were the priestly class, getting a lot of their food from sacrifices, they did not get a portion of land in the occupation of Israel. Joseph was a son of Jacob ... but no land was allocated to him in the subdivision of Canaan. From the time of Judges on, there is no reference to the Tribe of Joseph. Instead, there are two tribes named Ephraim and Manasseh, who were NOT sons of Jacob, but were sons of Joseph. Each of them received designated geographical areas in "the land flowing with milk and honey."

In Genesis 48:5 we read of Jacob saying to Joseph “Now then, your two sons born to you in Egypt before I came to you here will be reckoned as mine; Ephraim and Manasseh will be mine, just as Reuben and Simeon are mine..."

And in Joshua 14:4 we read "for Joseph’s descendants had become two tribes—Manasseh and Ephraim. The Levites received no share of the land but only towns to live in, with pasturelands for their flocks and herds." Although the Levites received no share of the land but only towns to live in...they are still counted as a Tribe of Israel.

We therefore have 13, not 12 tribes. So which are the 12 that will be judged? I am confused. Give scripture reference please, if you know of one.

I apologise if this is viewed by some as a tangent .... but it is something I have been curious about for some time.

Sorry I dropped the ball.

Matthew 19:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[rhern]

Not trying to butt in, thought maybe you would like to see it for yourself.

In Ezekiel 48 you will find the future division of land to the 13 tribes. Ezekiel gives, or I should say Christ gives the exact borders of each tribe.

48:1-8 gives the names of the 7 tribes north of the Oblation, while 23-29 give the 5 tribes south of the Oblation.

The 13th tribe of the Levites will have a portion of there own that surrounds the Millennial temple.

Sorry I dropped the ball.

Matthew 19:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Charlie24]

Sorry I dropped the ball.

Matthew 19:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It is my understanding that the Levites are not actually considered a tribe, not at this time anyway.

They are the priests of God to be separate of the 12 tribes of Israel.

I have never fully understood this, but the Levites are for temple service and holy to the Lord.

 

[rhern]

It is my understanding that the Levites are not actually considered a tribe, not at this time anyway.

They are the priests of God to be separate of the 12 tribes of Israel.

I have never fully understood this, but the Levites are for temple service and holy to the Lord.

The Levites are one of the 12 tribes of Israel. The other 11 gave tithes 1/10th to support the Levites.
This was God's instructions. The amazing thing is in the 2nd coming of Christ, The Lord will be King of the whole earth and the apostles will do continue in maintaining the Temple. Guess who will sit as judges, 12 judges.

please read Zechariah 14 it is amazing please continue to ask question

 

[Charlie24]

The Levites are one of the 12 tribes of Israel. The other 11 gave tithes 1/10th to support the Levites.
This was God's instructions. The amazing thing is in the 2nd coming of Christ, The Lord will be King of the whole earth and the apostles will do continue in maintaining the Temple. Guess who will sit as judges, 12 judges.

please read Zechariah 14 it is amazing please continue to ask question

Yes, the Levites throughout history had their share of land with the tribe of Judah, because they had the largest portion. Christ came from the tribe of Judah.

But during the Millennial Reign of Christ, the Levites will have their own portion of land.

It will be the closest to the temple where Christ will dwell.

Were you referring to the Levites mentioned in Zech. 12:12?

 

[rhern]

Yes, the Levites throughout history had their share of land with the tribe of Judah, because they had the largest portion. Christ came from the tribe of Judah.

But during the Millennial Reign of Christ, the Levites will have their own portion of land.

It will be the closest to the temple where Christ will dwell.

Were you referring to the Levites mentioned in Zech. 12:12?

I didn't know about the largest portion. I can see why.

very interesting

 

[Monna]

The Levites are one of the 12 tribes of Israel. The other 11 gave tithes 1/10th to support the Levites.

The sons of Jacob were 12: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Joseph and Benjamin. (Genesis 35). Notice Ephraim and Manasseh are not in this list. They were sons of Joseph.

However, Genesis 48 tells us that Jacob "claims" Ephraim and Manasseh to be his SONS. And they both are alotted geographical areas in the promised land, as well as being consistently referred to as TRIBES of Israel. Levi, as the TRIBE of priests did not get an area allocated ... but they are most often thought of as one of the TRIBES of Israel, as Rhem obviously agrees. Whether or not their "portion of land" was subsumed under Judah's they are still regarded as a TRIBE of Isreal.

The TRIBES of Israel were: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim, Manasseh and Benjamin ... which together add up to 13.

[There are quite a few later references to "the TRIBES of Joseph" in the OT. Almost always in the plural as far as I can see. Joshua 14.4 - Joseph’s descendants had become two TRIBES—Manasseh and Ephraim." See also Joshua 17:17, 18:11; Judges 1:22, 35; 2 Sam 19:20; 1 Kings 11:28; Amos 5:6; Zech 10:6. Ezekiel 37:19 seems to indicate an amalgamation of tribes into 1, but Ezekiel 47:13 still has 12 tribes having boundaries, but Joseph getting two portions. This suggests that Levi would also get its own "boundaries" though this is not explicit.]

Zechariah 14:12 does not solve (or even address) this "mismatch." My question was originally: what were the 12 TRIBES of Israel that the apostles were to rule over ... since there are 13 listed. Were the levites, for example, excluded because of their role as priests, or how was this supposed to work? Which 12 tribes will have their names on the gates of the future city described in Revelation 21?

Charlie24 doesn't seem to agree that Levi was counted as a Tribe. Certainly, he is listed in Genesis 49.

The other 11 gave tithes

Which other 11 - as the list above shows there are 12 others. It may be that in certain contexts Ephraim and Manasseh are collectively subsumed within the "tribe of Joseph" rather than separately. Are there different Hebrew words for "tribe" used in different contexts? (I don't read Hebrew.)

Any thoughts?