Why Is This A Problem???

[Clizby WampusCat]

I'm talking about the tired old "trolley problem". It goes like this:


Trolley problem - Wikipedia

Where's the "problem"? Pull the darn lever. Only a jerk wouldnt.

I don't think it is as clear cut as you think. From a utilitarian point of view or a well being point of view pulling the lever would seem to be the right thing to do but can you see why some people would be hesitant? Most people will feel more culpable in the death of the one by pulling the lever than if they do nothing and five are killed. After all they did not setup the situation in the first place.

Why is killing five people more morally wrong than killing one to you?

I have tried to really put myself in that situation in my head and I don't know if I actually would pull the lever. The scenario may be happening too fast to decide in that moment.

 

[Tone]

Yes

I already said I'd make the decision to not pull the lever.

 

[Tone]

Yes. But you if don't pull the lever, you are responsible for killing five people.

No, I'm not responsible for killing anybody if I don't pull the lever.

 

[durangodawood]

.....If my only option was to steer the plane towards less people then I wouldn’t steer the plane at all.

Why not?

 

[Tone]

In the exact same way that by doing nothing you initiated it for 5 people.

There's nothing super special about the initial position of the switch. In fact it means nothing - because its a functioning binary switch with an operator present (you).

"Hands-off" means you preferred the 5 death scenario to the 1 death scenario.

No, it means I'm not trying to play God.

 

[durangodawood]

....Why is killing five people more morally wrong than killing one to you?....

You arent killing any people. That burden lies with whoever caused the runaway trolley.

I'm saying its better to save more lives, all other things being equal.

 

[durangodawood]

No, it means I'm not trying to play God.

Your decision about which way you prefer the trolley to go is entirely within the realm of human action.

 

[Tone]

I find myself wanting a specific example of this^ so I can understand what your asking me to imagine.

It means death is coming for everyone, and we can lay down our own lives for somebody, but to take someone else's life to preserve others, is always evil.

You don't get to decide whose life to take for your peace of mind or societies' peace of mind.

Taking life to preserve life is wicked and to do it at a societal level is increasingly evil.

Should we build pyramids and let the heads roll?

Life may be given for life (willfully), but not taken due to preferences and mathematical problems.


*Or statistical projection of viral behavior...

 

[durangodawood]

....Most people will feel more culpable in the death of the one by pulling the lever than if they do nothing and five are killed. After all they did not setup the situation in the first place....

I'm not sure that one's do nothing "clean hands" feeling would last.

Upon reflection I suspect most people will feel shame for failing to direct the peril to a less populated area just so they could walk away from the scene with a "clean hands" feeling for themselves.

 

[durangodawood]

....You don't get to decide whose life to take for your peace of mind or societies' peace of mind.......

What I'm seeing is you would permit a peril to endanger more people rather than less so you can preserve your own personal "clean hands" peace of mind.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Could it be that God put you in that very position to make a difference in the outcome?

He would only put me there if I were going to succeed in carrying out His plan. God doesn’t choose people to carry out His plan who will fail.

 

[durangodawood]

He would only put me there if I were going to succeed in carrying out His plan. God doesn’t choose people to carry out His plan who will fail.

My head spins trying to keep up.

Second guessing the intent of God based on your own initial reactions seems really suspect. Would God never present a challenge that requires you to "step up"?

 

[public hermit]

It's fascinating how this is often viewed as killing one person instead of saving five.

There is a similar scenario where I'm visiting a foreign country run by a tyrant. The tyrant is about to execute 10 people as I am walking by and offers to free nine if I shoot one.

I can refuse and ten die. I can kill one and nine live. What causes me to hesitate? I don't want to commit murder. Essentially, I value my own righteousness more than nine lives. Or, I am unwilling to sacrifice my goodness for the sake of nine lives. Once it is framed that way, it appears I value my own righteousness more than the lives of others, which is selfish. On the other hand, to sacrifice one's own goodness for the sake of the many is a sacrifice worth considering. What matters more, my sense of being a good person or nine lives? Would I sacrifice nine lives to be good? That's such an odd thought.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why not?

Because I would be putting myself in a position to kill innocent people. By not interfering any deaths would not be the result of my doing.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It's fascinating how this is often viewed as killing one person instead of saving five.

There is a similar scenario where I'm visiting a foreign country run by a tyrant. The tyrant is about to execute 10 people as I am walking by and offers to free nine if I shoot one.

I can refuse and ten die. I can kill one and nine live. What causes me to hesitate? I don't want to commit murder. Essentially, I value my own righteousness more than nine lives. Or, I am unwilling to sacrifice my goodness for the sake of nine lives. Once it is framed that way, it appears I value my own righteousness more than the lives of others, which is selfish. On the other hand, to sacrifice one's own goodness for the sake of the many is a sacrifice worth considering. What matters more, my sense of being a good person or nine lives? Would I sacrifice nine lives to be good? That's such an odd thought.

I'd just tell that bastard of a tyrant to "Repent and turn to Christ !!!"---in good ol' John the Baptist-ee style.

... of course, if that Tyrant was a Consequentialist and his name was Herod, I suppose I'd know what my next few steps would then be. But I'd also know that I did what I had to do.

 

[durangodawood]

It's fascinating how this is often viewed as killing one person instead of saving five.

There is a similar scenario where I'm visiting a foreign country run by a tyrant. The tyrant is about to execute 10 people as I am walking by and offers to free nine if I shoot one.

I can refuse and ten die. I can kill one and nine live. What causes me to hesitate? I don't want to commit murder. Essentially, I value my own righteousness more than nine lives. Or, I am unwilling to sacrifice my goodness for the sake of nine lives. Once it is framed that way, it appears I value my own righteousness more than the lives of others, which is selfish. On the other hand, to sacrifice one's own goodness for the sake of the many is a sacrifice worth considering. What matters more, my sense of being a good person or nine lives? Would I sacrifice nine lives to be good? That's such an odd thought.

Interesting.

This hypothetical is confounded by a big intuition that will always get in the way: Youre dealing with a human mind rather than directing brute mechanics. Its almost impossible to remove the intuition that you can negotiate. Or that the tyrant might renege. Or many other possibilites that open up when a human mind is in the equation. Even if you say to treat the tyrant as a force of nature, its intuitively very difficult.

 

[public hermit]

Interesting.

This hypothetical is confounded by a big intuition that will always get in the way: Youre dealing with a human mind rather than directing brute mechanics. Its almost impossible to remove the intuition that you can negotiate. Or that the tyrant might renege. Or many other possibilites that open up when a human mind is in the equation. Even if you say to treat the tyrant as a force of nature, its intuitively very difficult.

True. But I think the cause of hesitation is the same. People don't want to pull the lever because they don't want to tarnish their sense of goodness. They are willing to sacrifice the lives of five people to be a good person who has no causal connection to another's death, even if being so related is justifiable due to circumstances.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My head spins trying to keep up.

Second guessing the intent of God based on your own initial reactions seems really suspect. Would God never present a challenge that requires you to "step up"?

Can you give one example where someone was able to refuse to accomplish something that God has chosen them to do? God is omniscient and omnipresent He doesn’t choose people to carry out a task who won’t succeed in carrying it out.

 

[durangodawood]

Because I would be putting myself in a position to kill innocent people. By not interfering any deaths would not be the result of my doing.

Deliberate doing, deliberate lack of doing, either is your deliberate decision.

And the responsibility for the foreseeable difference in outcomes is on you.

 

[durangodawood]

Can you give one example where someone was able to refuse to accomplish something that God has chosen them to do? God is omniscient and omnipresent He doesn’t choose people to carry out a task who won’t succeed in carrying it out.

Ok. Then step up because God intends for you to steer the plane.