Why is there something?

[JBrian]

If time exists in the universe, but not the universe in time, the universe does not have a beginning in time, rather time has a beginning in the universe. The universe (i.e. "existence") may be uncreated and have a timeless aspect.

I agree with you that the creation of the universe was the beginning of time. However, if the universe had a beginning, it cannot be eternal or uncreated.

Anyway, much of the force of the question "why is there something rather than nothing" is actually incredulity at the idea that anything can exist at all without some explanation of how it got there (why not "nothing" instead of God?), and in this sense the incredulity applies to eternal beings (such as God) as much as anything else.

I disagree. An infinite series cannot be an explanation for something's existence; that is no answer at all. Keeping in mind that the universe had a beginning, we know that something had to make it. Nothing has to cause a necessary being (God). He necessarily exists. So the argument does not apply to God that He needs a cause. By definition, God is that which none is higher in being. He is perfect. If something created God than the God which was created is not God.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I agree with you that the creation of the universe was the beginning of time. However, if the universe had a beginning, it cannot be eternal or uncreated.

My argument is that time, not the universe, had a beginning. It only seems to us like the universe had a beginning, because time had one.

 

[Lonnie]

Many people argue against Lonnie's argument by saying that if everything needs a cause, then so does God. However, this is a misunderstanding of the law of causality. Only something that has a beginning needs a cause. Theism holds that God did not have a beginning, therefore He does not need a cause.

This goes back to Thomistic metaphysics. God is pure actuality. Everything else is composed of potency and act; there can only be one pure actuality, one necessary being.

Ok, this thread is not really ontopic, and could probably be divided into multiple threads.

I agree with what JBrian said. So, I will start another thread(or you could start another thread) about how everything that had an effect needs a cause.(Law of causality, cause and effect) But you have to understand, the law of causality is very important, it is what science is based on.(you see an effect, and you try to figure out what caused it)

Like JBrian said "Only something something that has a beginning needs a cause. Theism holds that God did not have a beginning, therefore He does not need a cause."

 

[MartinM]

1. Scientific research shows that when people pray about patients that are about to undergo a heart surgery/students that are taking a test(like the final i got to take at 12:30) / and even plants that are just growing. all of the things go better and much smoother ie. the patients heal better/the students get better grades( tested by me) and plants grow better.

2. Human logic and mathematical analysis make it impossible for life to appear out of this "soup" of protiens and ammino acids.

And your evidence for these points would be?

 

[MartinM]

It was won in the same way Hitler won the war against Russia.

More like the way Hussein won in Iraq.

"There are no enemy soldiers in Baghdad. No, really. I promise."

 

[MartinM]

Again, the law of causality does not say that everything needs a cause; it says that everything that has a beginning needs a cause.

And where exactly did this 'law' come from? Certainly not from observation of the Universe, which flatly contradicts it.

 

[Lonnie]

The law of causality, is very obvious.

If you kick a ball, and it moves, then what caused the ball to move?
It is actualy what almost all science is based on.

If there where no law of causality, then thing would happen for no reason.
For example: One day, you are sitting next to your computer and suddenly it turns into gold. And NOTHING caused your computer to turn into gold, then your chair turned into flys, and your hair into clay, and suddenly the world spun the other way, and the sun split in two, all for NO Reason, nothing caused it to do that.

 

[MartinM]

What on earth does kicking a ball have to do with things which begin to exist having a cause?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

The law of causality, is very obvious.

If you kick a ball, and it moves, then what caused the ball to move?
It is actualy what almost all science is based on.

If there where no law of causality, then thing would happen for no reason.
For example: One day, you are sitting next to your computer and suddenly it turns into gold. And NOTHING caused your computer to turn into gold, then your chair turned into flys, and your hair into clay, and suddenly the world spun the other way, and the sun split in two, all for NO Reason, nothing caused it to do that.

May I ask a question, and though it is not too relevant to this topic I hope I get a reply this time.

What is your stance on free will? What you outlined above flatly contradicts any possibility for it.

 

[Tirocupidus]

Theism holds that...

Heh. That thought is apparently what started this meaningless, endless thread. Unfortunately for its supporters, it's only a guess. The solid ground that is needed to base a sound argument on isn't present here.

 

[Phred]

1. Scientific research shows that when people pray about patients that are about to undergo a heart surgery/students that are taking a test(like the final i got to take at 12:30) / and even plants that are just growing. all of the things go better and much smoother ie. the patients heal better/the students get better grades( tested by me) and plants grow better.

Irrelevant. The people could get better because of any number of reasons, this does not validate or even suggest a deity.

2. Human logic and mathematical analysis make it impossible for life to appear out of this "soup" of protiens and ammino acids.

Untrue. Oh, I know religionists love to try and pass this off as true... but it's plainly just bunk. In order to come to this conclusion you have to make far too many invalid assumptions. See here.

3. god is all powerfull ( read #1)

That which you claim to be all powerful can't even be shown to exist.

 

[Lonnie]

May I ask a question, and though it is not too relevant to this topic I hope I get a reply this time.

What is your stance on free will? What you outlined above flatly contradicts any possibility for it.

I do believe we have free will. I want to talk about it more, but in another thread.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Thanks for your post.
The universe had a beginning. Therefore the universe needs a cause. However, if nothing existed at T=0, then one must say that the universe exploded out of nothing. In fact this is just what cosmologists, astronomers and astrophysicists are saying.

I am interested in your T=0 argument. Can you expound on it?

That's just it, we don’t think that nothing existed at T=0 at all. We think there was something, but the state that something was in is unknowable at this time since we can’t recreate the universe at T=0 either in a lab or as a computer model precisely because the laws of physics don’t seem to apply at that point.

A simple way to put it is that “something” probably always existed, although that's not a terribly good way to put it since Time itself does not exist until T=0 therefore there isn’t really a “before” T=0 in a conventional sense.

Sorry I’m not certain if that post expounded on or further confused the T=0 argument.

Ghost

 

[levi501]

The law of causality, is very obvious.

If you kick a ball, and it moves, then what caused the ball to move?
It is actualy what almost all science is based on.

If there where no law of causality, then thing would happen for no reason.
For example: One day, you are sitting next to your computer and suddenly it turns into gold. And NOTHING caused your computer to turn into gold, then your chair turned into flys, and your hair into clay, and suddenly the world spun the other way, and the sun split in two, all for NO Reason, nothing caused it to do that.

Kind of refreshing to see someone so young get this...
Many xians here on these boards can't grasp this. It's probably because it doesn't sit well with some of their beliefs so it's easier to discount and ignore.
Let me help you where this line of reasoning leads...
Invariably it leads to denouncing freewill as another poster stated.
Consider do you really have a choice in things or are the decisions you make predicated on factors you ultimately have no control over? Ponder this and try to think of anything, including thoughts that don't have a cause. If you can't you are left with only one answer... you are a product of a bunch of causal of events that extend back before you were created that you ultimately had no hand in determining. This extends back infinitely or until the first cause. As a xian you probably believe in an omnipotent God as the first cause. If you do, then he is responsible for every event that's happened since.
THe reason why this doesn't sit well with some people is... if there isn't freewill then how can a loving, rational, and just omnipotent god punish you for something you have no control over? How can there be a hell?

 

[:æ:]

The law of causality, is very obvious.

If you kick a ball, and it moves, then what caused the ball to move?
It is actualy what almost all science is based on.

Balderdash.

Here's a question for you:
An isotropic pion (one without spin) spontaneously decays into two muons -- one with spin +1/2 and one with spin -1/2.

What caused the spin?

The so called "law" of causality is no real physical principle. Real physical laws are expressible in the form of an equation relating precise values.

If there where no law of causality, then thing would happen for no reason.

Reasons are not the same as things as causes.

For example: One day, you are sitting next to your computer and suddenly it turns into gold.

There are different physical laws which preclude that from happening.

And NOTHING caused your computer to turn into gold, then your chair turned into flys, and your hair into clay, and suddenly the world spun the other way, and the sun split in two, all for NO Reason, nothing caused it to do that.

Incredulity is not a valid objection to a given proposition.

:æ:

 

[Eudaimonist]

Invariably it leads to denouncing freewill as another poster stated.

Newtonian "billiard ball" causality would do this, but it has already been discounted by quantum physics. It seems that uncaused (or perhaps self-caused) behaviors can and do happen. The law of identity and agent-causality leave the door open for free will.

 

[MartinM]

Don't confuse causality with determinism! QM doesn't rule out the latter at all.

 

[Kapeto]

But atheists cannot awnser this question, can they? It is impossible for them, right?

If it is, will you be less anguished about your faith in Bible delusions?

 

[levi501]

Newtonian "billiard ball" causality would do this, but it has already been discounted by quantum physics. It seems that uncaused (or perhaps self-caused) behaviors can and do happen. The law of identity and agent-causality leave the door open for free will.

I am speaking of determinism.
What factors impact the self to cause it to act?
Aren't we all products of either genetic and environment causal events?

 

[Eudaimonist]

I am speaking of determinism.
What factors impact the self to cause it to act?
Aren't we all products of either genetic and environment causal events?

Not in my view. I'm not a reductive materialist. I think that the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts, and that emergent phenomena, such as life and consciousness, exist and may have properties which the parts by themselves don't obviously have. I think that we are products of genetics, environment, and our (emergent) conscious choices.

Yes, I know this puts me at odds with many metaphysical naturalists, and while I consider myself a metaphysical naturalist, I'm one of the agent-causation, freewill renegades.