Why is the day of worship controversial?

LoveGodsWord · Dec 28, 2018

ace of hearts said:
It also says there is no Jew in Jesus Christ.

Actually it says there are no JEWS and GENTILES all are one in CHRIST. No separation any longer between Jews and gentiles.

ace of hearts said:
So you have a colossal failure here.

Not at all God's WORD is true and I believe and follow it. The only failure is in not believing and following God's WORD.

ace of hearts said:
This is personal opinion unsupportable by your passage. Nothing about being or becoming Israel. Coming up short again offering personal unsupportable opinion. What can I say?

Not at all it is God's WORD not mine and there is a lot of it that disagrees with you.

1. ORIGIN OF ISRAEL AND THE 12 TRIBES linked
2. MEANING OF THE NAME OF GOD'S ISRAEL linked
3. GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT IS GOD'S CHURCH linked
4. GENTILES ARE NOW GRAFTED IN WITH GOD'S ISRAEL linked

Yep a lot of scripture that disagrees with you brother. Please feel free to address all the scriptures in the linked post. If you cannot then your argument is simply your wod over God's Word. Who should we believe, you or God? I know who I believe *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29.

ace of hearts said:
This passage doesn't make Jews out of gentiles.

Best to let God's WORD that you are arguing against do the talking here...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

ace of hearts said:
Yes I read your posts prior to your linking them anywhere. Two words of Scripture text "among them" defeat all of those posts.

Not at all brother who is the them in ROMANS 11:17 where it says that the gentiles are grafted in among them? Yep you guessed it ISRAEL

Hope this helps

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Yep you guessed it. This is the promise made to ISRAEL (Jacob)

Nope this promise isn't made with Jacob. The fulfillment of this blessing does however pass through him.

You have no part in God's promise if you are not a part of God's ISRAEL as the promise was made to Abraham and his seed who is ISRAEL *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

I don't care how many times you abuse or misuse this passage. It will never make your intention true.

INDEED! JESUS represents the ROOT in ROMANS 11:13-27. Gentiles are now grafted into the ROOT (JESUS) among God's ISRAEL (the branches).

OK, I can buy that. This is a change for you from into Israel to among Israel. Quite a difference. However that doesn't mean the one fold is Israel. We're fellowcitizens with the saints, not Israel. Eph 2:19

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Actually it says there are no JEWS and GENTILES all are one in CHRIST. No separation any longer between Jews and gentiles.

Considering your position please explain how you have Israel without Jews. You wrongly promote Christians are Israel. You do this by misapplication of words and interchanging them (changing the definition).

Not at all God's WORD is true and I believe and follow it. The only failure is in not believing and following God's WORD.

Any pertinent comment here would only lead to trouble.

Not at all it is God's WORD not mine and there is a lot of it that disagrees with you.

1. ORIGIN OF ISRAEL AND THE 12 TRIBES linked
2. MEANING OF THE NAME OF GOD'S ISRAEL linked
3. GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT IS GOD'S CHURCH linked
4. GENTILES ARE NOW GRAFTED IN WITH GOD'S ISRAEL linked

I've no interest in the origin of Israel.
I've no interest in your definition of Israel.
I've no interest in your misapplication of Israel.
Your graft in Israel idea doesn't line up with Scripture.

Yep a lot of scripture that disagrees with you brother. Please feel free to address all the scriptures in the linked post. If you cannot then your argument is simply your wod over God's Word. Who should we believe, you or God? I know who I believe *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29.

I understand your application of Rom 3:4. Essentially you're bypassing the mods with it calling me a lair.

I fully agree with Peter in Acts 5:29. I also believe -

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

If you also believed this verse we would have no argument over the law as an obligation for the Christian.

Best to let God's WORD that you are arguing against do the talking here...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You already said there are no Jews in Jesus Christ. So quit coming back trying to make Jews out of gentiles.

Not at all brother who is the them in ROMANS 11:17 where it says that the gentiles are grafted in among them? Yep you guessed it ISRAEL

The saints aren't Israel - Eph 2:19. Again the one fold isn't Israel - Jn 10:16.

eleos1954 · Dec 29, 2018

BobRyan said:
Jer 31:31-33 God calls it the NEW Covenant and it includes the moral law of God that Jeremiah and his readers already knew about -- written on the heart and mind.

The Old Covenant in its purest form was given to sinless Adam , "Obey and live" and he eventually chose sin.

The New Covenant was introduced along with the New Birth so that sinful man could be saved.

Jer 31:31-33 God calls it the NEW Covenant - this verse, when I go into the Greek the word new does not appear .... it refers to it as "the covenant".

It is true Adam knew about Gods law/laws, the 1st of course being the most important as we are told in scripture. If the 1st is kept ... then all the rest fall in place.

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, what is the most important commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus answered:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. 38 This is the first and most important commandment. 39 The second most important commandment is like this one. And it is, “Love others as much as you love yourself.” 40 All the Law of Moses and the Books of the Prophets[a] are based on these two commandments.

This is of course still true according to the better covenant in that we receive salvation through Jesus.

Hebrews 8

6Now, however, Jesus has received a much more excellent ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is better and is founded on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second.

It seems to me to be this way: The OT covenant included the big 10, plus the ceremonial/sacrificial system. The ceremonial/sacrificial part was done away with by Jesus sacrifice on the cross. No longer needed because Jesus was the final sacrifice for all.

So, because the 10 still stand (and always will) that part of the OT covenant is not new. It is better (made fresh) because through Jesus standing in our stead and we will be saved rather than condemned.

In keeping the 10, people cite works, legalism etc. ... it could be ... it could not be. It's about motive (what is in the heart). Is one keeping the commandments thinking their own efforts of doing so will save them? No = wrong motive. Is one keeping the commandments because they love Jesus and being responsive to His Holy Spirit? Yes - correct motive.

And only God knows the heart of each of us and what our hearts motives are.

Psalm 44:21 would not God have discovered it, since he knows the secrets of the heart?

Luke 16:15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.

Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

Romans 8:27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

The 10 are actually laws of Love ... it's all about Love. God is Love. If what we do is out of Love for Him ... then there is no problem. He instills love in our hearts and minds (through the Holy Spirit) His Love in us (knowing we will mess up here and there) and His Holy Spirit will help us to overcome (a life time process) and intercedes for us as His love conquers all things. God is Love and His love conquers all things, not us.

1st Corinthians 13

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love (God is love).

God Bless.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

BobRyan said:
Is 56:6-8 gentiles (not Jews) are specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping

Not true. They are gentiles. "Foreigners". And it does not matter where they live according to Isaiah 56.

A foreigner is -

1 : a person belonging to or owing allegiance to a foreign country

2 chiefly dialectal : one not native to a place or community

If a person take up the covenant (joins the Lord in Isa 56) they no longer qualify as a foreigner. They're treated as one born in the land - meaning a Jew.

“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations.”

Ex 12:48 does NOT say "anyone who keeps from profaning the Sabbath is a Jew". And we all know it.

Ex 12
48 But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.

Nothing at all there about the weekly Sabbath - the Sabbath commandment. As we all can see clearly.

The verse is about the rites of Israel (Judaism). This would include all rites of the covenant including the sabbath. Your Isa 56 quote includes "holds fast My covenant." That includes the 7th day sabbath in the famous 10 which is the covenant (Jer 31:32 and Deut 4:13)

So it is gentiles .. foreigners "all nations" in Isaiah 56 -- not circumcised passover-keeping Jews.

Yes if you're burning animals. Remember that is done away with according to you.

And it is foreigners - "god fearers" in Acts 14 - gentiles that are worshiping in the Synagogue "Sabbath after Sabbath" and asking for MORE Gospel preaching "NEXT Sabbath" when the "entire town" shows up... still gentiles.

Yes and they're not Christians. They're proselytes to Judaism.

Thus it is that gentiles show up in Acts 17:1-4 and in Acts 18:4-6 Sabbath after Sabbath in the synagogue for Gospel preaching.

Who did you say shows up?

The text you reference only speaks about Passover and circumcision ... nothing at all in it about gentiles in all nations and the weekly Sabbath.

Ex 12:48 speaks about the rites of Israel (Judaism).

By contrast - the texts I point to - do reference gentiles in all nations and the weekly Sabbath. and we see them not only in Isaiah 56 but also in the NT - in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 -- Sabbath after Sabbath... gentiles, not Jews

These people you speak of aren't Christians.

Isaiah 56 does not say the foreigner lives in Israel. Those gentiles keeping Sabbath in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 were not in Israel, were not circumcised, were not Jews.

Again these people aren't Christians.

You are conflating two different things.

No. I'm not mixing or promoting gentiles and Jews as Christian. You are though.

1. The liturgy of worship - before the cross vs after (no matter if the one worshiping is a Jew or gentile)
2. the requirement of a gentile worshiper to ALSO become a circumcised Jew IF they want to also observe the Passover.

Observing Passover is a religious rite of worship.

Ex 23:17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD. Those time are the feasts and times of worship.

Details matter.

Animal sacrifices needed before the cross -- no matter if one was Jew or gentile.

Isa 56 requires animal burning.

Gentiles needed to be circumcised if they wanted to go to the temple and keep Passover -- no matter if it was before the cross or after.

No it applies only to people joining themselves to the Lord which requires keeping all the law as given thru Moses to Israel.

But none of those gentiles in Acts 13, `17, 18 worshiping in the synagogues every Sabbath are Jews - rather they are called "God fearing gentiles" -- they keep Sabbath but they are not circumcised Jews.

Neither are they Christians. Many were persuaded to become Christians though.

Bible details matter. Nice try though.

Yes keep trying.

On the contrary - "god fearing gentiles"

Not Christians.

"God-fearers (Greek: φοβούμενος τὸν Θεόν, Phoboumenos ton Theon) or God-worshipers (Greek: θεοσεβής, Theosebes) were a numerous class of gentile sympathizers to Hellenistic Judaism, which observed certain Jewish religious rites and traditions without becoming full converts to Judaism."

Still doesn't make them Christians.

Full converts were not called gentiles and could enter the temple.

That's correct -Ex 12:48.

Ex 12
48 But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it

A stranger is -
(1): foreigner

(2) : a resident alien

b : one in the house of another as a guest, visitor, or intruder

c : a person or thing that is unknown or with whom one is unacquainted

d : one who does not belong to or is kept from the activities of a group

e : one not privy or party to an act, contract, or title : one that interferes without right

2 : one ignorant of or unacquainted with someone or something

To sojourn means -

a temporary stay

So the verse only applies to visitors (aliens) as long as they stay.

A Jew could not become a priest either - they had to be Levites and in fact descendant from Aaron.

We use the word Jews to mean all Israeli these days. I'm unwilling to police this technicality to be compliant with you. Then the evidence is the law is over because Jesus is our Priest -

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi David, my interpretation is not mine. It is God's WORD not mine. I know who I believe. You provide your own words and seek to promote erroneous history for your interpretation of the scriptures. The only traditions I follow is that of God's WORD. Anything outside of God's WORD that contradicts the scriptures is not from God and will lead you away from God.

We know who you believe.

W2L · Dec 29, 2018

Doesnt Acts say that the church met daily?

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

eleos1954 said:
Jer 31:31-33 God calls it the NEW Covenant - this verse, when I go into the Greek the word new does not appear .... it refers to it as "the covenant".

I don't know where you get your version from, but my version includes the word "new" in both Jeremiah and Hebrews.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

BobRyan said:
I think so. Aren't you required to respond to your own point about D.L. Moody after seeing his sermon on the Ten Commandments say what we all just saw it say - regarding the Sabbath commandment?

What is the source of your quote? I'll back up my claim with proper documentation after you do.

In other words - when you make a statement - do you not care enough about your own point to follow it through and show that it either survives the actual facts of history - documented statements etc or to admit it is in error?

Or are you saying you already knew about his statement on the Sabbath commandment but were hoping I would not post the text of that sermon??

Yes I already knew about your quote and my claim. They're from the very same source. I've read the forum including your formal debate on the subject which includes your quote.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Your repeating yourself now brother read the chapter your quoting from. This was already addressed earlier by adding the context you left out of the scriptures you were trying to quote.

Is Joshua 8:32 God's Word and true?

eleos1954 · Dec 29, 2018

ace of hearts said:
That better covenant is a new covenant. Yes I read Hebrews.These eternal laws you talk about were added 430 years after Abraham and have expired upon the coming of the Seed (Jesus) - Gal 3. Besides that sin was in the world before the law - Rom 5:13.If this is from John, its not the famous 10.

made another post with more detailed info

Why is the day of worship controversial?

ace of hearts said:
I don't know where you get your version from, but my version includes the word "new" in both Jeremiah and Hebrews.

It's in several versions you can compare them here if you like. www.biblehub.com

I guess it really doesn't matter if one calls it a new covenant or a better covenant as long as the 10 are not dismissed, is really the point. Better covenant makes more sense to me ... because that makes the big 10 part still standing from the "original" covenant. The entire OT covenant was not completely made irrelevant ... or not needed .... it was the ceremonial/sacrificial part that was made irrelevant or not needed because of Jesus.

God Bless.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

BobRyan said:
Jer 31:31-33 God calls it the NEW Covenant and it includes the moral law of God that Jeremiah and his readers already knew about -- written on the heart and mind.

The Old Covenant in its purest form was given to sinless Adam , "Obey and live" and he eventually chose sin.

The New Covenant was introduced along with the New Birth so that sinful man could be saved.

Moses never uses the term "old covenant" for anything

Jeremiah references that same law given at Sinai as the LAW written on the heart under the New Covenant.

Moses himself also teaches the same new covenant saying that the LAW of God is to be written on the heart.

There is only one Gospel. Moses stands with Christ in Matthew 17 - in glory... before the cross. Saved by the "ONE Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

No because of Jer 31:32.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
According to God's WORD LOVE is not separate from God's LAW (10 Commandments) it is expressed through it. This is what JAMES is referring to in JAMES 2:18-20; 26.

LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF GOD’S LAW

You cannot separate God’s Law of love from the 10 commandments because they are connected to each other. There is no need for confusion here. God’s Word makes it very clear. Let's look at the scriptures.

MATTHEW 22:36-40
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38], This is the first and great commandment.
[39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.
[40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

NOTE: Jesus when asked this question from the Lawyer is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18. Finishes by saying that on the two great commandments of LOVE hang all the law and the prophets.

What does v40 mean?

LUKE 10:25-28
[25], And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tested him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
[26], He said unto him, what is written in the law? how read you?
[27], And he [the Lawyer] answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself.
[28], And he said unto him, you have answered right: this do, and you shall live.

NOTE: The lawyer knew what it means to love God and love his neighbore. How? Notice the question that the lawyer starts os by asking Jesus; "WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?". Now notice that the very same question is asked again and look how Jesus answers...

MATTHEW 19:16-19
[16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF YOU WILL ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.
[18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, YOU SHALL DO NO MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT LIE, [19], HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and you shall love your neighbour as yourself.
Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

NOTE: Notice in that the question from the rich young ruler is the very same question as asked by the lawyer "WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?" but both were answered by Jesus in a different way. When the Lawer asked the question he answered his own question by saying LOVE to GOD and LOVE to his neighbor (from Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Jesus said he answered correctly. When the rich yound ruler asked the same question Jesus answered by saying keep the 10 Commandments and starts out quoting them as his duty of LOVE to his neighbor.

Is this a contradiction of scripture? In no way the answer has already been given in MATTHEW 22:36-40. ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS (LOVE TO GOD and LOVE TO MAN) HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

When we LOVE GOD and our NEIGHBOUR it is expressed through our actions.

If we LOVE our neighbor...

* We will honor our parents,
* We will not kill them
* We will not commit adultery with thier spouse
* We will not steal from them
* We will not lie to them
* We will not covet what they own.

If we LOVE our God...

* We will not have other Gods
* We will not make idols and worship them
* We will not take his name [follow] him in vain
* We will remember his Sabbath and keep it holy.

The opposite can be said in the above as well. If we do not LOVE God or our fellow man we will break all the above.

ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS [OF LOVE] HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

PAUL understood what JESUS was talking about...

ROMANS 13:8-10
[8], Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. [9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore, love is the fulfilling [DOING] of the law.

Notice what PAUL says here? LOVE is fulfilling [doing] God's Commandments. God's Commandments or duty towards your neighbor is summed up as you shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself v9. [On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets Matthew 22:40].

PAUL agrees with Jesus that if you LOVE you will fulfill God's LAW. What about JAMES?

JAMES 2:8-12
[8] If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself [Sums up our duty of love in the 10 Commandments Romans 13:9] , you do well: [9], But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convicted of the law as transgressors. [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. [12], So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James is using the second great commandment of LOVE which hangs all the commandments of our duty of love to our neighbour and quotes the commandments showing our duty towards our neighbor. This is why Jesus says “On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets” Matthew 22:40. and again..

JOHN 14:15 [15], IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

You cannot separate LOVE from God’s LAW. Love is the FULFILLING of it and is demonstrated by OBEDIENCE to Gods’ LAW as our duty of LOVE to God and man. [“On these two commandments [of LOVE] hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets]

...................

CONCLUSION: It is very clear that JESUS, PAUL and JAMES are all in agreement that the two GREAT COMMANDMENTS of LOVE that JESUS quoted from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 were used and known in the OLD Testament scripture to sum up our duty of LOVE to God and man in the 10 Commandments.... God's LAW (Ten commandments) is not separated from LOVE it demonstrates it. You cannot have LOVE without fulfilling God's Ten Commandments. [On these two Commandments of LOVE hang all the LAW and the prophets].

LOVE is the NEW COVENANT promise to OBEY God's LAW *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. WE enter into God's NEW COVENANT to LOVE unless we are BORN AGAIN...

JOHN 3:3-7
[3], Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

WHY do we need to be born again? As shown through the scriptures we have no LOVE.

1 JOHN 4:7-8 [7], Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God. [8], He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.

NOTE: Sound familiar? 1 JOHN 2:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:6; 1 JOHN 3:9 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40.

1 JOHN 4:12 No man has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 JOHN 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.

1 JOHN 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar [JESUS says they gave committed murder in their heart -Matthew 5:20-22] for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

1 JOHN 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. [ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS - MATTHEW 22:36-40]

Continuing.

[4], Nicodemus said to him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5], Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6], That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7], Marvel not that I said to you, You must be born again.

He that is BORN of GOD does not commit sin because sin is breaking how God's LOVE is EXPRESSED through OBEDIENCE to God's WORD. This is expressed in a different way in 1 JOHN 3..

1 JOHN 3:3-10 [3], And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
[4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[5], And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[6], Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
[7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

[8], He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9], Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

NONE LOVE GOD or their fellow man while breaking any of God's 10 COMMANDMENTS as LOVE is an EXPRESSION of OBEYING them. You cannot separate the 10 Commandments from LOVE they are the very expression of what LOVE is and LOVE is the fulfilling of them under the NEW COVENANT promise * HEBREWS 8:10-12

Hope this helps.

Where does Paul say not murdering (killing) is keeping (doing) the law? What I gather from you is the wicked are also keeping the law. That isn't true. They would ask you what are you talking about.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

BobRyan said:
True - it is a benefit, a blessing -- for mankind

"The Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27

Who says He waited??

Is there any indication in the OT the sabbath was made for mankind? Please quote it. None of your verses below indicate that.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 gentiles "specifically" singled out for Sabbath keeping (700 years B.C)
Gen 2:1-3 Sabbath given to all mankind in Eden - as even the Sunday groups freely admit when they argue that all mankind was given all TEN of the TEN Commandments in Eden.

Which I keep pointing out here -

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

So what.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

BobRyan said:
They do but they agree to certain obvious Bible details regarding the Sabbath Commandment that you have been opposing and that I have been promoting.

That point remains.

Only by misrepresentation. Most of the list don't observe the 7th day sabbath and therefore are talking about their day of worship as Saturday.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
There is not one scripture that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day. I suggest you read your bible.

There's no such command in the NT.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Not at all brother all I hear is your words over God's WORD. The scriptures quoted are God's WORD not mine so your argument is with God not me. If you believe God's Word says gentiles are free to break God's law then you need a new bible God's WORD does not teach lawlessness *1 JOHN 2:3-4. All those who continue in KNOWN UNREPENTANT sin do not enter the KINGDOM of heave because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27.

Your only real contention is the day of worship and not evil activity.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

Soyeong said:
The issue of whether followers of God should follow what God has commanded is fundamentally basic to Christianity, so it should not be a controversial issue. It's the one command that God specifically said to remember that so many are trying so hard to forget. The disciples were Jews who grew up keeping the Sabbath, so they did not need to be taught to keep it and there was never a time when their week was not oriented around keeping the Sabbath. We shouldn't even need anything to be repeated in the NT order for us to know that we should still obey God.

Jesus was sinless, so he lived in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, which means that he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, including keeping the Sabbath throughout his ministry, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:3-6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1). Furthermore, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, including repenting from breaking the Sabbath. In addition, Jesus also taught how to keep the Sabbath through his interactions with the Pharisees on the topic, such as in Matthew 12:1-13.

I reject your call to Judaism. Paul is admonishing us to imitate him. Paul didn't follow the law after conversion. If he did he couldn't say - "We are now delivered from the law..." Please don't chastise me for not quoting the whole verse, it doesn't invalidate what I quoted. Besides the the context is the famous 10 by citation in v 7.

In Acts 15:21, the expectation was that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. In Colossians 2:16, they were keeping God's holy days in obedience to God's commands in accordance with what Christ taught by word and by example, they were being judged by those teaching human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body (Colossians 2:20-23) and Paul was writing to encourage them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which straightforwardly includes keeping God's Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3).

There's no requirement in Acts 15 to attend synagogue.

I have to ask why would they as followers of Jesus need to learn how to follow Moses and the law?

Who is they in Col 2? It doesn't say they were doing anything. It says let no one condemn you about the matter. This goes either way. Col 2:20-23 is about carnal commandments of which the famous 10 are.

1 Peter 1:13-16 Isn't a call to keep the law.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

BobRyan said:
and "yet" they all admit to basic Bible details about the Sabbath commandment that you oppose - and I accept. Which was the point...

The point remains.

You keep trying to make them mean something they didn't and still don't.

ace of hearts · Dec 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Not really David. I put God's WORD first above all things because only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. JESUS says those who follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

You use this against us and refuse to admit your own guilt.

I'm still waiting for your discussion and testimony concerning Ex 20:8-11.

Why is the day of worship controversial?

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