Why is Suicide Wrong

[Par5]

atment
You asked me a question and as usual, I answered you (as usual) and you didn't like my answer (as usual) and so you try and twist my words, as usual. I've allowed myself to get sidetracked away from the original post which "is suicide wrong" and since this a presumably Christian forum (not an theist one) the answer is yes, that is if it's from a Christian perspective and I stand by that statement.

This does not preclude for one having compassion for anyone who does commit suicide or is contemplating it. But that doesn't make it right. I not only have compassion them, but anyone who dies, especially if they are not a believer. You want to deflect the problem with your straw-man confusing it with what happened in the Old Testament and not considering the reasons behind it. It just in indicative of your hate for God and your particular axe to grind with Him as well as your particular dislike for Christians.

I am not twisting your words, if anything you are twisting mine. You keep insisting that I hate something that I have repeatedly told you I don't believe exists. Genocide does exist and I do hate that and I don't understand how some people of faith can say that in certain circumstances it is acceptable, as you do. You accuse me of not considering the reasons behind the biblical genocides. I can understand that there can be legitimate reasons for going to war, but I can see absolutely no legitimate reason for the victors to slaughter all the remaining women and children.
Bringing up the biblical genocides was not sidetracking you. Many of Christians on this thread have said that suicide is murder and therefore wrong. Well, genocide is murder on a mass scale so therefore it is wrong. It can't be acceptable for any reason yet you continue to excuse it when it is supposedly at the behest of the god you believe in. I have not twisted any of your words. The only thing that is twisted is your thinking.

 

[2tim_215]

I am not twisting your words, if anything you are twisting mine. You keep insisting that I hate something that I have repeatedly told you I don't believe exists. Genocide does exist and I do hate that and I don't understand how some people of faith can say that in certain circumstances it is acceptable, as you do. You accuse me of not considering the reasons behind the biblical genocides. I can understand that there can be legitimate reasons for going to war, but I can see absolutely no legitimate reason for the victors to slaughter all the remaining women and children.
Bringing up the biblical genocides was not sidetracking you. Many of Christians on this thread have said that suicide is murder and therefore wrong. Well, genocide is murder on a mass scale so therefore it is wrong. It can't be acceptable for any reason yet you continue to excuse it when it is supposedly at the behest of the god you believe in. I have not twisted any of your words. The only thing that is twisted is your thinking.

False parallel. I told you (more than once_ that I don't approve of genocide. Again, getting back to the original question, "is suicide wrung" the answer from a Christian perspective is yes. Genocide is wiping out an entire group and is another group doing it and in many cases is an act of war. I'm also against war. Suicide is when one individual takes their own life. Stop trying to confuse the issue and blme God for people murdering themselves.

 

[2tim_215]

What part of, "I don't believe in your god" are you having difficulty with?
My question was directed at you, no one else, but I see you have already answered by saying genocide is only wrong when it is not at the behest of the god you believe in.
Nice belief system you have there that allows you to excuse the inexcusable! And you wonder why people are non-believers!

I do. People have their own reasons for being non-believers. Who determines what's right and what's wrong? Not you. If you don't believe in God, then how can you blame Him for genocide if He doesn't really exist?

 

[Par5]

I do. People have their own reasons for being non-believers. Who determines what's right and what's wrong? Not you. If you don't believe in God, then how can you blame Him for genocide if He doesn't really exist?

You seem confused, I have never said I blame the god you believe in for acts of genocide. I have always said that if such acts of genocide as recorded in the bible did actually occur, then they were the acts of men and men alone. I am not blaming any god. You though, do believe in this god and believe that it instructed it's followers to wipe out an entire people. That is an act of genocide, an act that in one breath you say is wrong but not wrong if it is at the behest of your god. So you see, I am not criticising the god you believe in, I am criticising you for have such a blatant double standard.
Who determines what is right and what is wrong you ask. We all have to determine right from wrong in our lives, and while it is not always clear-cut, to do so it helps to have a healthy dose of empathy and common sense. If you find difficulty determining right from wrong, then perhaps you lack one or both of those qualities.

 

[2tim_215]

You seem confused, I have never said I blame the god you believe in for acts of genocide.

You don't? That is rather confusing based on what you've said throughout this thread.

I have always said that if such acts of genocide as recorded in the bible did actually occur, then they were the acts of men and men alone. I am not blaming any god. You though, do believe in this god and believe that it instructed it's followers to wipe out an entire people.

What I believe is the Bible, which obviously you don't believe in. And unlike you, if the God of the Bible, the creator of the Universe chooses to destroy a certain group, I'm not going to challenge His wisdom or decision to do such. Where we have a disconnect I believe is that you keep saying that I'm OK with genocide, but the truth is I'm not when it's done by men. However, if it's God's instruction to do so, I'm not going to challenge Him or question or His judgement. Even if I did it wouldn't matter, since He's sovereign and is not going to do what you or I tell Him to do.

That is an act of genocide, an act that in one breath you say is wrong but not wrong if it is at the behest of your god. So you see, I am not criticising the god you believe in, I am criticising you for have such a blatant double standard.

In all fairness, circumstances should be considered when evaluating an act and they vary. You probably are also considering the Inquisition and the Crusades as two terrible acts which were done by so-called Christians in the name of God but I can assure you that they were not God instructed but were devised and carried out by men. Many of the acts that occurred in the Bible were instructed to by God but the Inquisition and the Crusades were not (they're not even in the Bible). The New Testament does not anywhere tell men to go to war or to kill anyone. That is self inflicted by men.

Who determines what is right and what is wrong you ask. We all have to determine right from wrong in our lives, and while it is not always clear-cut, to do so it helps to have a healthy dose of empathy and common sense. If you find difficulty determining right from wrong, then perhaps you lack one or both of those qualities.

One of the great things believing in the God of the Bible is that there is no problem determining right from wrong and empathy is always there. And common Christian sense is something that you automatically get as a Christian if you get born again.

 

[Par5]

You don't? That is rather confusing based on what you've said throughout this thread.

What I believe is the Bibl, which obviously you don't believe. And unlike you, if the God of the Bible, the creator of the Universe chooses to destroy a certain group, I'm not going to challenge His wisdom or decision to do such. Where we have a disconnect I believe is that you keep saying that I'm OK with genocide, but the truth is I'm not when it's done by men. However, if it's God's instruction to do so, I'm not going to challenge Him or question or His judgement. Even if I did it wouldn't matter, since He's sovereign and is not going to do what you or I tell Him to do.

In all fairness, circumstances should be considered when evaluating an act and they vary. You probably are also considering the Inquisition and the Crusades as two terrible acts which were done by so-called Christians in the name of God but I can assure you that they were not God instructed but were devised and carried out by men. Many of the acts that occurred in the Bible were instructed to by God but the Inquisition and the Crusades were not (they're not even in the Bible). The New Testament does not anywhere tell men to go to war or to kill anyone. That is self inflicted by men.

One of the great things believing in the God of the Bible is that there is no problem determining right from wrong and empathy is always there. And common Christian sense is something that you automatically get as a Christian if you get born again.

You are making stuff up again. Where did I say I blamed the god you believe in?
Anyway, what it all boils down to is you saying that you're not OK with genocide, but on the other hand in certain circumstances you are. It's a bit like someone saying they are only a bit pregnant. They either are or they aren't, just like people believe genocide is either wrong or right. You can't have it both ways. I believe you will find that the general consensus is that genocide is always wrong!

 

[AnnaDeborah]

As a Christian, I believe suicide is wrong because I am making a decision that is only God's to make. Years ago, I spent a lot of time hunting through the Bible for a way to justify suicide because I didn't want to go on living. But the more I read, the more I was confronted by how much Jesus had suffered for me and how arrogant it was for me to decide, in the face of so much love for me, that I had the right to opt out of life if I wanted to.

Also, to say that I can't cope with the pain of living any more and then to die in a way that causes so much pain to others is like saying that my feelings are far more important than anyone else's. I know a lot of people say it would be ok for them because no one would miss them, but how do they know? One of my dearest friends killed herself aged 25. For the past 13 years, I've had to deal every day with the pain of her death, of her absence. That's more than half as long as she lived. I wonder if she would have done it if she had known how much her friends were all going to have to suffer for the rest of their lives.

I'm not judging people who have taken that pathway though because I think they are often so pain-filled and confused that they don't know what they are doing. I know someone who killed himself just before Christmas and he left behind a pile of neatly wrapped Christmas presents with instructions on who they were to be delivered to, because he didn't want anyone to be disappointed that they didn't get their present from him. The fact that he could even imagine anyone would care about presents when they were dealing with such a horrific bereavement shows that his mind wasn't really functioning properly.

 

[2tim_215]

You are making stuff up again. Where did I say I blamed the god you believe in?
Anyway, what it all boils down to is you saying that you're not OK with genocide, but on the other hand in certain circumstances you are. It's a bit like someone saying they are only a bit pregnant. They either are or they aren't, just like people believe genocide is either wrong or right. You can't have it both ways. I believe you will find that the general consensus is that genocide is always wrong!

So you don't blame God. You blame me for people committing suicide? And you attempt to obfuscate the purpose of this thread by bringing up genocide, something completely different from suicide. Try and keep on topic if you can. I've completely stated my position on suicide and you seem to want to discuss genocide. If that's the case maybe you should start a thread on it.

 

[2tim_215]

As a Christian, I believe suicide is wrong because I am making a decision that is only God's to make. Years ago, I spent a lot of time hunting through the Bible for a way to justify suicide because I didn't want to go on living. But the more I read, the more I was confronted by how much Jesus had suffered for me and how arrogant it was for me to decide, in the face of so much love for me, that I had the right to opt out of life if I wanted to.

Also, to say that I can't cope with the pain of living any more and then to die in a way that causes so much pain to others is like saying that my feelings are far more important than anyone else's. I know a lot of people say it would be ok for them because no one would miss them, but how do they know? One of my dearest friends killed herself aged 25. For the past 13 years, I've had to deal every day with the pain of her death, of her absence. That's more than half as long as she lived. I wonder if she would have done it if she had known how much her friends were all going to have to suffer for the rest of their lives.

I'm not judging people who have taken that pathway though because I think they are often so pain-filled and confused that they don't know what they are doing. I know someone who killed himself just before Christmas and he left behind a pile of neatly wrapped Christmas presents with instructions on who they were to be delivered to, because he didn't want anyone to be disappointed that they didn't get their present from him. The fact that he could even imagine anyone would care about presents when they were dealing with such a horrific bereavement shows that his mind wasn't really functioning properly.

Thanks for sharing AnnaDeborah. So many new discoveries in the way of medical science and cures nowadays and people to help with depression. Anyone who has Jesus in their lives is very unlikely to commit suicide. People who commit suicide and murder are basically people who re without hope. When you're a Christian, there's always hope.

 

[Par5]

So you don't blame God. You blame me for people committing suicide? And you attempt to obfuscate the purpose of this thread by bringing up genocide, something completely different from suicide. Try and keep on topic if you can. I've completely stated my position on suicide and you seem to want to discuss genocide. If that's the case maybe you should start a thread on it.

There you go making stuff up again. Where on this thread have I ever blamed you for people committing suicide?
The reason I brought up genocide was because some Christians were saying that suicide was murder. I would not call it murder, but I would call genocide murder, murder on a massive scale and as we have seen, some Christians can find excuses not to condemn genocide in certain circumstances.
Suicide is tragic, but I am not arrogant enough to point the finger and call someone who takes their life, a murderer. Who knows what frame of mind they are in to take such drastic and final action? Taking one's own life goes against a human beings natural instinct for self-preservation so what kind of turmoil they were suffering I will never know and neither will you.
For you to say you have compassion for those who kill themselves is all very well and good, but you rather spoil it all by thinking they are murderers!

 

[2tim_215]

There you go making stuff up again. Where on this thread have I ever blamed you for people committing suicide?
The reason I brought up genocide was because some Christians were saying that suicide was murder. I would not call it murder, but I would call genocide murder, murder on a massive scale and as we have seen, some Christians can find excuses not to condemn genocide in certain circumstances.
Suicide is tragic, but I am not arrogant enough to point the finger and call someone who takes their life, a murderer. Who knows what frame of mind they are in to take such drastic and final action? Taking one's own life goes against a human beings natural instinct for self-preservation so what kind of turmoil they were suffering I will never know and neither will you.
For you to say you have compassion for those who kill themselves is all very well and good, but you rather spoil it all by thinking they are murderers!

When someone kills themselves, they've committed murder (although they may not realize it). I'm sure that those who commit genocide have found a way to justify it, although it to is murder. Just because it's yourself that you're murdering (and not someone else as in genocide) it's still murder in my opinion and it's wrong which is what I've said from the start. Just because you murder yourself (take your own life) it's still murder.

 

[Desk trauma]

When someone kills themselves, they've committed murder (although they may not realize it). I'm sure that those who commit genocide have found a way to justify it, although it to is murder.

Like saying that their god said to do it.

Just because you murder yourself (take your own life) it's still murder.

Just like how it's still theft when I take money out of my own bank account and it's still trespassing when I am on my own property.

 

[2tim_215]

Like saying that their god said to do it.

Hmm. So are you blaming God for those who commit suicide? I thought so. Different atheist opinion from par5?

Just like how it's still theft when I take money out of my own bank account and it's still trespassing when I am on my own property.

False parallel. Those two are nothing alike to murdering yourself. Murder is against the law. Withdrawing money from your own account is perfectly legal, and you cannot trespass on your own property. Pretty weak argument.

 

[Desk trauma]

Hmm. So are you blaming God for those who commit suicide?

I don't hold things that I do not think exist culpable for any thing. The point I was making is that the genocide you accept is justified by the people who committed it saying their deity said to do so.

I thought so.

You thought incorrectly.

False parallel. Those two are nothing alike to murdering yourself. Murder is against the law. Withdrawing money from your own account is perfectly legal, and you cannot trespass on your own property. Pretty weak argument.

No, it's exactly the same. Someones life is their property just as much as their money or home hence why I see it a nonsensical to call suicide murder.

 

[2tim_215]

I don't hold things that I do not think exist culpable for any thing. The point I was making is that the genocide you accept is justified by the people who committed it saying their deity said to do so.

You don't know what you're talking about. That's pretty obvious.

You thought incorrectly.

No, it's exactly the same. Someones life is their property just as much as their money or home hence why I see it a nonsensical to call suicide murder.[/QUOTE]
No it's not. Typical strawman argument.

 

[Desk trauma]

You don't know what you're talking about. That's pretty obvious.

On what point am I incorrect? The Israelites thought that the genocide they took out was ordained by their deity, that was their justification for why it was right to kill kids of different tribes.

No it's not. Typical strawman argument.

Err, that's not what a straw man argument is. A straw man argument is when you set up a false caricature of someones argument. I was putting forward my argument as to why it's nonsensical to call suicide murder, was I straw manning my self?

 

[2tim_215]

On what point am I incorrect? The Israelites thought that the genocide they took out was ordained by their deity, that was their justification for why it was right to kill kids of different tribes.

Yes they did. It remains to be seen whether or not they were right or wrong in doing what they believed their God was telling them to. I have a feeling that if they didn't listen to Him they might not be around today.

Err, that's not what a straw man argument is. A straw man argument is when you set up a false caricature of someones argument. I was putting forward my argument as to why it's nonsensical to call suicide murder, was I straw manning my self?

strawman argument - A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man." Sounds pretty "strawmanish" to me.

 

[Desk trauma]

Yes they did. It remains to be seen whether or not they were right or wrong in doing what they believed their God was telling them to.

Ok, on what point was I wrong to make you say I didn’t know what I was talking about?

strawman argument - A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man." Sounds pretty "strawmanish" to me.

That ones body and life is their property is my position, not a strawman.

 

[2tim_215]

Ok, on what point was I wrong to make you say I didn’t know what I was talking about?

I" don't hold things that I do not think exist culpable for any thing. The point I was making is that the genocide you accept is justified by the people who committed it saying their deity said to do so. "

So men who commit genocide (a lot more men have done it without God's instruction) who justify their actions on their own are less significant? Maybe you should be talking about them. You don't know the history of those you are talking about. Maybe if you did you'd change your tune a bit. Make up a list of those who have been subjected to genocide by God vs man and see how it compares. In most cases, it was a warlike situation and man seems to have no problem as far as wars go.

That ones body and life is their property is my position, not a strawman.

"Just like how it's still theft when I take money out of my own bank account and it's still trespassing when I am on my own property."
To use the above to compare it to taking ones own life is a strawman argument. The above is legal, murder is not. And if you believe in a creator, your body is not your property, it's His.

 

[Tinker Grey]

The above is legal, murder is not. And if you believe in a creator, your body is not your property, it's His.

Oh, well, the solution to this debate is simple: Make suicide legal. Ergo, not murder -> problem solved.

ETA: And if the only argument is that one's religion declares suicide murder/evil/whatever, then, because of Separation of Church and State, laws against it are unconstitutional. (US only. Sorry, friends of other countries.)