Why is Suicide Wrong

[2tim_215]

Oh, well, the solution to this debate is simple: Make suicide legal. Ergo, not murder -> problem solved.

ETA: And if the only argument is that one's religion declares suicide murder/evil/whatever, then, because of Separation of Church and State, laws against it are unconstitutional. (US only. Sorry, friends of other countries.)

Is it currently illegal? I wasn't aware of that if it is. The question wasn't whether or not it was legal (to my understanding) it was whether it was right or wrong.

 

[comana]

As a Christian, I believe suicide is wrong because I am making a decision that is only God's to make. Years ago, I spent a lot of time hunting through the Bible for a way to justify suicide because I didn't want to go on living. But the more I read, the more I was confronted by how much Jesus had suffered for me and how arrogant it was for me to decide, in the face of so much love for me, that I had the right to opt out of life if I wanted to.

Also, to say that I can't cope with the pain of living any more and then to die in a way that causes so much pain to others is like saying that my feelings are far more important than anyone else's. I know a lot of people say it would be ok for them because no one would miss them, but how do they know? One of my dearest friends killed herself aged 25. For the past 13 years, I've had to deal every day with the pain of her death, of her absence. That's more than half as long as she lived. I wonder if she would have done it if she had known how much her friends were all going to have to suffer for the rest of their lives.

I'm not judging people who have taken that pathway though because I think they are often so pain-filled and confused that they don't know what they are doing. I know someone who killed himself just before Christmas and he left behind a pile of neatly wrapped Christmas presents with instructions on who they were to be delivered to, because he didn't want anyone to be disappointed that they didn't get their present from him. The fact that he could even imagine anyone would care about presents when they were dealing with such a horrific bereavement shows that his mind wasn't really functioning properly.

First let me say I am sorry you have had to carry the pain of loss in this way.

I have not lost a loved one to suicide but I have been on the other side. Being beat down by depression to the point I thought ending my life was the best alternative for everyone. Thankfully I did get help before any attempt but I also know my depression was hurting my loved ones as well.

The problem is that help is not that easy. There is such a stigma surrounding mental illness. Shame, fear, appearance of weakness, and so on are barriers to seeking help. Then add cost and time needed to stabilize most conditions. In the US at least, there is very little support for this.

This of course needs to change and I have great hope that someday seeking medical help or psychological help will will be viewed the same as care for any other health condition. Until those suffering any form of mental illness can feel assured that speaking truthfully about what is going on will not compound their pain, then suicide will continue to appear to be a solution.

 

[Desk trauma]

So men who commit genocide (a lot more men have done it without God's instruction) who justify their actions on their own are less significant?

The genocides that you say are not ordained by your deity are not the ones we were talking about because you're not trying to say they were justified.

You don't know the history of those you are talking about.

You keep making this assertion but will not detailed it for some reason, on what points am I wrong? What part of the situation have I presented inaccurately?

Maybe if you did you'd change your tune a bit.

I doubt it, I cannot think of a situation in which taking women as spoils of war while killing off all the male children is justified but do tell, why should I change my tune on that point?

"Just like how it's still theft when I take money out of my own bank account and it's still trespassing when I am on my own property."
To use the above to compare it to taking ones own life is a strawman argument.

No, it's an analogy to explain my potion on people having the right to control their lives as they do their money and property.

The above is legal, murder is not.

If legality is the only issue you take with assisted death are you ok with it taking place in the states and countries where it is legal? Do you still call it murder then?

And if you believe in a creator, your body is not your property, it's His.

Having no such belief am I then free to control my own death or would you have others stop me then as well?

 

[Desk trauma]

Is it currently illegal? I wasn't aware of that if it is. The question wasn't whether or not it was legal (to my understanding) it was whether it was right or wrong.

Then why keep muddying the waters with protestations about its legal status as if that matters?

 

[2tim_215]

The genocides that you say are not ordained by your deity are not the ones we were talking about because you're not trying to say they were justified.

You can debate whether or not the killing which took place in the Old Testament where God was involved was justified or not but there is no justification for the men who have done it or for all the killing which has gone on throughout history which you seem to have no problem with and instead want to slam God.

You keep making this assertion but will not detailed it for some reason, on what points am I wrong? What part of the situation have I presented inaccurately?

Do you have insight as to who and why certain groups were exterminated in the Bible? Or are you just speculating and making blanket statements?

I doubt it, I cannot think of a situation in which taking women as spoils of war while killing off all the male children is justified but do tell, why should I change my tune on that point?

Usually (if not always) God instructed them TO NOT take the women, in fact they were usually told not to, but sometimes the Jews disobeyed and did it anyway, against God's wishes. And you need to figure out why they were told to kill the children in certain instances. There was good reason.

No, it's an analogy to explain my potion on people having the right to control their lives as they do their money and property.

You keep making the same false equivalence argument. Committing suicide (taking your own life) is completely different from taking the life of others (mass murder aka genocide). How can you equate the two? You need to come up with a better analogy.

If legality is the only issue you take with assisted death are you ok with it taking place in the states and countries where it is legal? Do you still call it murder then?

I do not care if it's legal or not. It's still wrong regardless. There are many laws that exist which are "bad" laws. Just because something may be legal doesn't necessarily mean it's "right".

Having no such belief am I then free to control my own death or would you have others stop me then as well?

No one can really stop anyone from committing suicide (even if it was illegal, how are you going to prosecute them if they are dead?) but once again I would certainly advise against it for reasons previously stated. When someone attempts to commit suicide and are unsuccessful they usually put them in a mental hospital. Are you against that too?


For those of you who may have had suicidal thoughts or who have loved ones or friends who have taken their own lives, my sympathy goes out to you and it's unfortunate they were not able to get the right kind of help they needed. Even though I don't believe in suicide and think it's wrong, I still have compassion for those who have been affected by it.

 

[2tim_215]

Then why keep muddying the waters with protestations about its legal status as if that matters?

Why do you keep muddying it with genocide?

 

[Sir Robbins]

since no sin is technically unforgivable, you won't burn in hell for committing suicide but I feel the reason it isn't laid out in plain site in the bible is because the fear of not knowing keeps many from actually doing it. If it spelled it out, many would be leaving sooner versus later. When you do commit suicide, you arrive in paradise, in Heaven. Pain comes to an end. However, you leave behind a lot of people who will be in pain as a result of you ending your pain and this is something people who go through with the act often ignore. It's selfish and I was at that point once years ago. I thought about what I'd put people through and it disturbed me. I'm here but hanging on. Medical issues and countless letdowns have brought me to a low. The older I get, the worse my life seems to become. I'm still here though.

 

[Desk trauma]

You can debate whether or not the killing which took place in the Old Testament where God was involved was justified or not but there is no justification for the men who have done it or for all the killing which has gone on throughout history which you seem to have no problem with and instead want to slam God.

I'm not the one that is saying that genocide can be justified, you are.

Do you have insight as to who and why certain groups were exterminated in the Bible? Or are you just speculating and making blanket statements?

The same reason that tribes always eradicated one another, they resources that the other desired. The only difference is that we are left with their account of what went on and people are defending it as the will of their deity rather then chalking it up to how bronze age tribes acted.

Usually (if not always) God instructed them TO NOT take the women, in fact they were usually told not to, but sometimes the Jews disobeyed and did it anyway, against God's wishes. And you need to figure out why they were told to kill the children in certain instances. There was good reason.

I'm all ears, why would a deity who can allegedly do anything settled on killing the children of neighboring tribes as the only course of action?

You keep making the same false equivalence argument.

You keep misapplying logical fallacies and saying I believe things that I have told you I do not but moving on.

Committing suicide (taking your own life) is completely different from taking the life of others (mass murder aka genocide). How can you equate the two? You need to come up with a better analogy.

I have not equated suicide with murder, that's the position you have been putting forward. However you are scraping up against my reasoning as to why people should be allowed control over their deaths as doing so does not violated another's rights hence there isn't a case to be made for state intervention.

I do not care if it's legal or not. It's still wrong regardless. There are many laws that exist which are "bad" laws. Just because something may be legal doesn't necessarily mean it's "right".

Then it makes no sense for you to state that helping people end their lives is illegal as if that's important.

 

[2tim_215]

I'm not the one that is saying that genocide can be justified, you are.

You are the one who keeps bringing genocide into a suicide discussion, not me.

The same reason that tribes always eradicated one another, they resources that the other desired. The only difference is that we are left with their account of what went on and people are defending it as the will of their deity rather then chalking it up to how bronze age tribes acted.

That is correct, when it comes to man. Not when it comes to God. There were very different reasons for that, at least the few instances in the Bible as compared to all the occurrences by man throughout history.

I'm all ears, why would a deity who can allegedly do anything settled on killing the children of neighboring tribes as the only course of action?

I don't know that it was the only course of action. What I do know is that it was the recommended one in a few instances.

You keep misapplying logical fallacies and saying I believe things that I have told you I do not but moving on.

What logical fallacy? That genocide and suicide are one and the same according to you?

Definition of suicide. 1 a : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally. b : ruin of one's own interests. political suicide.

genocide the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation. synonyms: mass murder, mass homicide, massacre; More

I have not equated suicide with murder, that's the position you have been putting forward. However you are scraping up against my reasoning as to why people should be allowed control over their deaths as doing so does not violated another's rights hence there isn't a case to be made for state intervention.

You equate suicide with genocide which is worse. I said it before. No one can be stopped from killing themselves if they want to. Just like no one can force them to. What I'm saying (and I agree that it's their choice) that faced with the prospect, they ought not to do i Pretty simple if you ask me.t. Sounds to me that you're trying to make a generality and saying that they should do it.

Then it makes no sense for you to state that helping people end their lives is illegal as if that's important.

I believe that the legality aspect was brought up by one of your fellow atheists and I was just responding to him. Help someone by encouraging them to kill themselves or kill them yourself in order to help them? I don't think anyone needs that kind of help. I would never encourage someone to kill themselves no matter what you say. As I've said before, there are plenty of other alternatives other than suicide.

 

[Desk trauma]

What logical fallacy?

Firstly with your saying that my description of my own position was a straw man argument followed by throwing out the idea of false equivalencies when that fell flat.

That genocide and suicide are one and the same according to you?

I have not said that nor do I believe that please stop asserting that I believe things I do not.

I said it before. No one can be stopped from killing themselves if they want to. Just like no one can force them to. What I'm saying (and I agree that it's their choice) that faced with the prospect, they ought not to do i Pretty simple if you ask me.t. Sounds to me that you're trying to make a generality and saying that they should do it.

My position is that it should be an option that people have open when facing their demise. What they chose to do or not do is up to them.

Help someone by encouraging them to kill themselves or kill them yourself in order to help them?

Again, it's not a matter of encouraging people to make use of the option but having it available without legal sanction for those would would participate.

 

[2tim_215]

Firstly with your saying that my description of my own position was a straw man argument followed by throwing out the idea of false equivalencies when that fell flat.

You kept referring to genocide when the purpose of this thread is to discuss suicide.

I have not said that nor do I believe that please stop asserting that I believe things I do not.

Then why do you keep bringing it up? I would ask you to do the same. Stay on topic.


My position is that it should be an option that people have open when facing their demise. What they chose to do or not do is up to them.

It is an option. It would be pretty hard to stop someone who wanted to kill themselves from doing it.

Again, it's not a matter of encouraging people to make use of the option but having it available without legal sanction for those would would participate.

It's not even a question of it's legality imo, it's a matter of whether it's right or wrong.

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/
"Suicide is the 10th leading cause of death in the US for all ages. (CDC)"
"Every day, approximately 105 Americans die by suicide. (CDC)"
"80% -90% of people that seek treatment for depression are treated successfully using therapy and/or medication. (TAPS study)"
"There is one suicide for every estimated 25 suicide attempts. (CDC)"

 

[Desk trauma]

You kept referring to genocide when the purpose of this thread is to discuss suicide.

It's to point out the inconsistency of your position that the bible condemns all killing as murder when it clearly does not such thing as the orders from the deity in it includes a great deal of killing.

Then why do you keep bringing it up? I would ask you to do the same. Stay on topic.

Bringing up a topic does not make me view it in a way I do not.

It is an option.

Outside of a handful of US states it is not. People are not allowed medical assistance to end their lives in a controlled manner and those that would help them do so face felonies.

 

[2tim_215]

It's to point out the inconsistency of your position that the bible condemns all killing as murder when it clearly does not such thing as the orders from the deity in it includes a great deal of killing.

So your argument is against the Bible, not whether or not suicid is right or wrong?

Bringing up a topic does not make me view it in a way I do not.

Well, what else am I supposed to think?

Outside of a handful of US states it is not. People are not allowed medical assistance to end their lives in a controlled manner and those that would help them do so face felonies.

Why should they when there are better options?You'd be encouraging Euthanasia. Would that be a good thing?[/QUOTE]

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It's not even a question of it's legality imo, it's a matter of whether it's right or wrong.

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/
"Suicide is the 10th leading cause of death in the US for all ages. (CDC)"
"Every day, approximately 105 Americans die by suicide. (CDC)"
"80% -90% of people that seek treatment for depression are treated successfully using therapy and/or medication. (TAPS study)"
"There is one suicide for every estimated 25 suicide attempts. (CDC)"

"medication" (legally perscribed)
is a GREATER CAUSE OF DEATH than 10th in line.
It is about 2nd or 3rd and growing every day the last 40 years.
(may be already the top leading cause of death)

 

[2tim_215]

"medication" (legally perscribed)
is a GREATER CAUSE OF DEATH than 10th in line.
It is about 2nd or 3rd and growing every day the last 40 years.
(may be already the top leading cause of death)

I'm not sure what your point is here. They've got plenty pf natural cures this day. Not sure what this has to do with suicide. Are you suggesting that people would be better off committing suicide than to take any prescribed medication?

 

[Desk trauma]

So your argument is against the Bible, not whether or not suicid is right or wrong?

No.

Well, what else am I supposed to think?

Something not so far out of left field Im at a loss at how you arrived at such a conclusion after reading what I have posted would be nice.

I'm not sure what your point is here. They've got plenty pf natural cures this day.

Citation needed for the natural cure for MS.

Not sure what this has to do with suicide. Are you suggesting that people would be better off committing suicide than to take any prescribed medication?

No.

Why should they when there are better options?

If they think that other treatment options are better that's their choice

You'd be encouraging Euthanasia.

Again, I am not saying what options people should choose only that they should have the legal right ability to chose them.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

HEAVEN FORBID !

Best to never ever at all not even once allow any thought of suicide, no, not at all.

Read again - the death rate posted (10%) by suicide
is much less number of people dying by suicide
than
the death/dying caused by leagally prescribed medication
according to the AMA and FDA and CDC websites detailing causes of death.

Medication has been in the top 3 (after or with cancer and heart disease I think) for one or more decades.
(It is actually higher than that when analyzed more, but not in the published charts as is; since heart attacks/disease and cancer might be related to prescribed medication, but the cause of death is put on the certificate as the disease instead of 'side effect' of the medicine)

(

I'm not sure what your point is here. They've got plenty pf natural cures this day. Not sure what this has to do with suicide. Are you suggesting that people would be better off committing suicide than to take any prescribed medication?

It is not legal for licensed professionals to tell you (in the USA) of most any of the cures.

(except the cure for scurvy, which was well known before the politicians got control of such statistics)

 

[2tim_215]

No.

Then what is it because it's not clear by your statements to me?

No.

That's good to hear. Now we're getting somewhere.

If they think that other treatment options are better that's their choice

And they should explore all those options before choosing the one you seem to think they should take. You mentioned a number of mental illnesses. Do you think that someone who has dementia or Alzheimers is in any condition to make the decision to kill themselves?

Again, I am not saying what options people should choose only that they should have the legal right ability to chose them.

Just because you as you say "have a right to do something" doesn't make it right and that's my argument. Like I said, I'm not concerned with the legal aspects. Abortion is legal. Does that make it right?

 

[2tim_215]

HEAVEN FORBID !

Best to never ever at all not even once allow any thought of suicide, no, not at all.

Read again - the death rate posted (10%) by suicide
is much less number of people dying by suicide
than
the death/dying caused by leagally prescribed medication
according to the AMA and FDA and CDC websites detailing causes of death.

Medication has been in the top 3 (after or with cancer and heart disease I think) for one or more decades.
(It is actually higher than that when analyzed more, but not in the published charts as is; since heart attacks/disease and cancer might be related to prescribed medication, but the cause of death is put on the certificate as the disease instead of 'side effect' of the medicine)

What you say may be true but I don't see how this does anything for the suicide argument.[/quote]

It is not legal for licensed professionals to tell you (in the USA) of most any of the cures.

(except the cure for scurvy, which was well known before the politicians got control of such statistics)

It depends. If it's a licensed MD, they can recommend treatments for you. As far as the legal aspect, it's always your choice as to whether or not to pursue the suggested treatment.

 

[Desk trauma]

And they should explore all those options before choosing the one you seem to think they should take.

Again, I am not saying what other people should do in their end of life care I am only advocating for the availability of a option.

Do you think that someone who has dementia or Alzheimers is in any condition to make the decision to kill themselves?

In the early stages when people are diagnosed they are still competent enough to set their affairs in order.

Just because you as you say "have a right to do something" doesn't make it right and that's my argument. Like I said, I'm not concerned with the legal aspects.

If it is right or wrong is up to the individual.

Abortion is legal. Does that make it right?

No, bodily autonomy does.