Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[ozso]

Judith and Enoch are recognized in Judaism and the Talmud is history.

Oh so now Judaism is relevant.

Who's laughing now?

Me to great excess.

 

[Hmm]

I think we have reached an impasse with him @MMXX

 

[SkyWriting]

Presumably God would have foreseen that the vagueness in the Bible about heaven and hell would lead to different interpretations and the arguments we see today about Infernalism, Anialism and Universalism.

Did He have a good reason for keeping things so undefined?

Heaven and hell have no time component, so we can't relate.

 

[Hmm]

Heaven and hell have no time component, so we can't relate.

I don't think we know that. We'll still have awareness and so there must be something like time that would allow our subjective experiences to follow one after another in succession. I agree that it probably won't be time as we know it in this space-time universe that's governed by relativity theory.

 

[Der Alte]

Oh so now Judaism is relevant.
Me to great excess.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Christianity begin in Israel among the Jews? And IIRC The first Christians were Jews.

 

[ozso]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Christianity begin in Israel among the Jews? And IIRC The first Christians were Jews.

That's why I posted a rabbi explaining what Judaism teaches about hell.

 

[Der Alte]

That's why I posted a rabbi explaining what Judaism teaches about hell.

Please explain your rationale why you think what one modern Jew believes about hell is germane tro this discussion? I think Muslims believe in something like hell, why not include them?

 

[ozso]

Please explain your rationale why you think what one modern Jew believes about hell is germane tro this discussion? I think Muslims believe in something like hell, why not include them?

You seem to have a hard time making up your mind; Judaism is relevant, irrelevant, relevant, irrelevant...

 

[Der Alte]

You seem to have a hard time making up your mind; Judaism is relevant, irrelevant, relevant, irrelevant...

I am still waiting for an explanation of how what one present day Jewish Rabbi believes about hell, or any other topic, is relevant to this or any other topic in this forum. Do you know of anyone who bases their Christian beliefs on modern Judaism? As I said before that might be of interest to posters in the Messianic Judaism area.
My post quoting Jewish sources is relevant because Jesus and his disciples were born into and grew up in that society. Throughout their lives they would have been exposed to a doctrine of hell.
Can you say the same for the rabbi post? I actually understand the concept of relevance.

 

[ozso]

I am still waiting for an explanation of how what one present day Jewish Rabbi believes about hell, or any other topic, is relevant to this or any other topic in this forum. Do you know of anyone who bases their Christian beliefs on modern Judaism? As I said before that might be of interest to posters in the Messianic Judaism area.
My post quoting Jewish sources is relevant because Jesus and his disciples were born into and grew up in that society. Throughout their lives they would have been exposed to a doctrine of hell.
Can you say the same for the rabbi post? I actually understand the concept of relevance.

Given the choice between Rabbi Moshe Zeldman's clear concise explanation of what Judaism teaches about hell, versus an anonymous gentile's convoluted claim of what Judaism teaches about hell, I'm going with Rabbi Zeldman.

 

[Der Alte]

Given the choice between Rabbi Moshe Zeldman's clear concise explanation of what Judaism teaches about hell, versus an anonymous gentile's convoluted claim of what Judaism teaches about hell, I'm going with Rabbi Zeldman.

That is a common reponse by UR-ites. Find anybody, anywhere who says something which seems to support UR and consider him/her/it to be an infallible expert.
If you are talking about me, they are not my "convoluted claims." Everything I said about the historical belief within Judaism I quoted from Jewish sources. And it serves to enrage the UR crowd, no end, that within Judaism before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant documented belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment and they called it both Gehinnom and Sheol. By significant I mean it was significant enough that it was recorded in three Jewish sources; the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, The Talmud and the 2007 Encyclopedia Judaica. Gehinnom and Sheol are written in both the 225BC LXX and the NT as Gehenna and Hades.
This may interest you, while researching I happened on this, in Arabic Hell is pronounced Jahannom.

 

[ozso]

That is a common reponse by UR-ites. Find anybody, anywhere who says something which seems to support UR and consider him/her/it to be an infallible expert.
If you are talking about me, they are not my "convoluted claims." Everything I said about the historical belief within Judaism I quoted from Jewish sources. And it serves to enrage the UR crowd, no end, that within Judaism before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant documented belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment and they called it both Gehinnom and Sheol. By significant I mean it was significant enough that it was recorded in three Jewish sources; the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, The Talmud and the 2007 Encyclopedia Judaica. Gehinnom and Sheol are written in both the 225BC LXX and the NT as Gehenna and Hades.
This may interest you, while researching I happened on this, in Arabic Hell is pronounced Jahannom.

Are you calming to know more about what Judaism teaches than Rabbi Moshe Zeldman?

 

[Hmm]

Everything I said about the historical belief within Judaism I quoted from Jewish sources. And it serves to enrage the UR crowd, no end, that within Judaism before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant documented belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment and they called it both Gehinnom and Sheol.

Surely not enragement? I've only noticed peaceful sighs of sadness from the "UR crowd" that anyone could take your mysterious and irrefutable sources seriously. If they have survived unchallenged for over a hundred years why are they not more widely known?

By significant I mean it was significant enough that it was recorded in three Jewish sources; the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia and ... the 2007 Encyclopedia Judaica.

I've forgotten, which one was written by the Judean People's Front and which by the People's Front of Judea?

 

[Der Alte]

Are you calming to know more about what Judaism teaches than Rabbi Moshe Zeldman?

Evidently I am not calming anything. Don't get your knockers in a twist. I know it was a typo! I don't care what Rabbi Z believes/teaches. It is not relevant to any topic I have participated in. I have only ever mentioned the Jews before and during the time of Jesus, NOT modern Judism. You guys seem to have a cognitive disconnect about this.

 

[ozso]

Surely not enragement? I've only noticed peaceful sighs of sadness from the "UR crowd" that anyone could take your mysterious and irrefutable sources seriously.

Let's take a look at one:

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).

​

“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). ...

There's nothing there which refutes what Rabbi Zeldman said.

 

[Der Alte]

Let's take a look at one:
There's nothing there which refutes what Rabbi Zeldman said.

Complete waste of bandwidth. I do not now or ever will care about whatg Rabbi Z said about hell. It is not relevant to any point I have discussed.

 

[ozso]

I don't care what Rabbi Z believes/teaches. It is not relevant to any topic I have participated in. I have only ever mentioned the Jews before and during the time of Jesus NOT modern Judism. You guys seem to have a cognitive disconnect about this.

Since you claim what Rabbi Zeldman explained is contained in "modern Judaism" could you tell us the approximate start date of it?

 

[Hmm]

I do not now or ever will care about whatg Rabbi Z said about hell.

There's also Rabbi A, B and C. I could go on... D, Q, F...

 

[ozso]

Complete waste of bandwidth.

If that's how you feel about your lengthy tomes then why have you posted them a zillion times?

I do not now or ever will care about whatg Rabbi Z said about hell. It is not relevant to any point I have discussed.

It's what Judaism says about hell and of course it's relevant to what you've posted.

 

[Hmm]

If that's how you feel about your lengthy tomes then why have you posted them a zillion times?

Actually I did a quick count and it's only a gazillion times for most of them.

As I must have told you a hundred million times before @MMXX, please don't exaggerate.