Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[ozso]

It's understandable. It's the internet, not everyone knows what each person is going through
we all have crosses to bear.
but as my point was earlier. It is a cross to bear, not "living your best life now".
So while I don't just cheer and praise because the Lord is on the Throne and is Glorious, because I mean, despite those two realities, I still suffer, so Jesus being glorious doesn't mean everything is great for me.
so I guess I'm just... supposed to live vicariously? Is that the trick?

I don't know what to say. Personally for me the worse things get the more I cling to him. But I was born into that relationship.

 

[Jamdoc]

As you probably know, I don't believe in such a God. I know you've quoted passages that suggest He is but I believe al these have alternative meanings. I don't want to go through them one by one because I'd have to do a lot of study to do that but also I doubt it would make much difference anyway. We tend to believe in the God that benefits us the most, ironically even if it's one that makes us unhappy. There are hidden pay offs to being unhappy - we don't have to take the risks that happiness inherently brings with it for instance. I'm not saying that you don't have real problems to deal with btw.

I first read the bible like actually read it cover to cover, after I became disabled.
I'd already had the "everything is Sunshine and Rainbows with God" idea shattered, and reading scripture.. just showed how severe the sovereignty of God could be, reading that even the men who were close to God, like the prophets, were at times very unhappy people, and even Jesus was described in THE "this is the chapter that Jews won't even read because it points right at Jesus" Suffering Messiah Chapter, Isaiah 53, as a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief, and at Gethsemane.. sweat blood, begging for God to find another way if it were at all possible, but then resigned Himself to the fate of the cross. He went willingly, obediently, to die for us, but it's not like He was skipping and singing joyfully all along the way. The Apostle "count it all Joy" Paul, wrote that if there was no resurrection, then we would be counted among all men most miserable.

I have a feeling Paul was just good at putting on a front hiding the suffering he must have gone through, imprisoned, lashed, stoned, shipwrecked, and ultimately executed.

Reading through the bible has shown me.. that God will use you for His glory, no matter what it does to you, and it won't always make you happy. But what are we to do otherwise, we're dust, and cannot question our maker.

Romans 9

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

and never forget.. when Job, suffering Job, questioned why God had made him suffer... this was the answer:

Job 38

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

In other words "who are you to question me?"

 

[ozso]

I figured what Jews believe about hell would probably best explained by asking a rabbi. And of course thanks to the wonder of youtube, one can listen to several rabbis explaining the concept of hell in Judaism. I always like to start out small and then expand. So lesson one for me is here in this less than five minute video. Warning to infernalists, you're not going to like this. This explanation is provided by Rabbi Moshe Zeldman.

 

[Hmm]

Warning to infernalists, you're not going to like this.

No, they won't. I actually watched this - it's only 4+ mins long.

Here's a rough transcript of part of it. It's amazing that this is the Jewish view of hell. It's Christian universalism in all but name. It's odd that we're so far gone as a church that we need a rabbi to remind us what the Christian message is.

"The good news is hell is temporary, heaven is permanent. Hell is I live through a period after I die looking down at my life and saying let me reconcile what I could have done, what I should have done. Let me feel the pain of the regret of what I could have accomplished. But that's it, I'm done, I paid off. I've reconciled and now I get to enjoy God. So it's very real but not real in a physical sense. It's very real in a spiritual emotional sense."

 

[ozso]

No, they won't. I actually watched this - it's only 4+ mins long.

Here's a rough transcript of part of it. It's amazing that this is the Jewish view of hell. It's Christian universalism in all but name. It's odd that we're so far gone as a church that we need a rabbi to remind us what the Christian message is.

"The good news is hell is temporary, heaven is permanent. Hell is I live through a period after I die looking down at my life and saying let me reconcile what I could have done, what I should have done. Let me feel the pain of the regret of what I could have accomplished. But that's it, I'm done, I paid off. I've reconciled and now I get to enjoy God. So it's very real but not real in a physical sense. It's very real in a spiritual emotional sense."

Some time ago I was listening to a Messianic minister (is that the right term?) give an expanded teaching about hell, and I thought he was teaching universalism. But now I see he was saying the same things as Rabbi Zeldman.

 

[Der Alte]

I figured what Jews believe about hell would probably best explained by asking a rabbi. And of course thanks to the wonder of youtube, one can listen to several rabbis explaining the concept of hell in Judaism. I always like to start out small and then expand. So lesson one for me is here in this less than five minute video. Warning to infernalists, you're not going to like this. This explanation is provided by Rabbi Moshe Zeldman.
* * *

No, they won't. I actually watched this - it's only 4+ mins long.
Here's a rough transcript of part of it. It's amazing that this is the Jewish view of hell. It's Christian universalism in all but name. It's odd that we're so far gone as a church that we need a rabbi to remind us what the Christian message is.
"The good news is hell is temporary, heaven is permanent. Hell is I live through a period after I die looking down at my life and saying let me reconcile what I could have done, what I should have done. Let me feel the pain of the regret of what I could have accomplished. But that's it, I'm done, I paid off. I've reconciled and now I get to enjoy God. So it's very real but not real in a physical sense. It's very real in a spiritual emotional sense."

Strange the quoted part does NOT cite any scripture, therefore it is totally irrelevant. Absent scripture what any individual or religious group believes about anything is not relevant.

 

[Hmm]

Strange the quoted part does NOT cite any scripture, therefore it is totally irrelevant. Absent scripture what any individual or religious group believes about anything is not relevant.

Neither did your post, therefore it is totally irrelevant too.

 

[Der Alte]

Neither did your post, therefore it is totally irrelevant too.

Which post?

 

[Hmm]

Which post?

The post I've just quoted of course.

 

[ozso]

Strange the quoted part does NOT cite any scripture, therefore it is totally irrelevant. Absent scripture what any individual or religious group believes about anything is not relevant.

I think you're just upset because it proves you wrong. Unless it went from no eternal torment in the OT, to belief in eternal torment, and then back to no eternal torment. You have yet to provide the missing link witch states unequivocally that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment.

 

[ozso]

Strange the quoted part does NOT cite any scripture, therefore it is totally irrelevant. Absent scripture what any individual or religious group believes about anything is not relevant.

You're hilarious. As if the Talmud, Judith and Enoch are scripture. You're making my sides hurt.

 

[Hmm]

You're hilarious. As if the Talmud, Judith and Enoch are scripture. You're making my sides hurt.

It's comedy gold.

 

[Der Alte]

Neither did your post, therefore it is totally irrelevant too.

You don't have a clue. It is not necessary to post scriopture when saying that a post is off topic.

I think you're just upset because it proves you wrong. Unless it went from no eternal torment in the OT, to belief in eternal torment, and then back to no eternal torment. ***

Another clueless post. It does not show anything about me or my posts. I have not been discussing modern day Judaism. That is off topic in this forum. If you want to discuss it there is a forum for that.

 

[ozso]

It's comedy gold.

There's no way for me to take it seriously at this point.

 

[Der Alte]

It's comedy gold.

You're hilarious. As if the Talmud, Judith and Enoch are scripture. You're making my sides hurt.

Judith and Enoch are recognized in Judaism and the Talmud is history. Who's laughing now?

 

[Der Alte]

There's no way for me to take it seriously at this point.

As if I care how you take anything.

 

[ozso]

You don't have a clue. It is not necessary to post scriopture when saying that a post is off topic.

Another clueless post. It does not show anything about me or my posts. I have not been discussing modern day Judaism. That is off topic in this forum. If you want to discuss it there is a forum for that.

Oh dear, well Hmm seems to disagree, and it's his thread, not yours. More laughs.

 

[Der Alte]

Oh dear, well Hmm seems to disagree, and it's his thread, not yours. More laughs.

Forum rules require that all posters stay on topic including the OP.

 

[ozso]

As if I care how you take anything.

Stop it, you're killing me.

 

[ozso]

Forum rules require that all posters stay on topic including the OP.

You call this on topic?