Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[ozso]

No, not at all, the point of being a Christian is to love Christ.
Christ paying the penalty for our sin for us, gives us a reason to love Him, a personal reason.
There are also rewards.
But unlike the punishments, the bible IS Fuzzy about the rewards to the point of Paul just saying eye has not seen nor ear heard.. etc.

The punishments is clear.
The rewards are unimaginable.

Well I mentioned reasons outside of ECT to love and follow Jesus, and you shot that down. You essentially said ETC was the primary factor. And now it's to escape ECT and to get rewards.

 

[Water and Fire]

All of that is abundantly known to universalists. Including PhD Bible scholar theologian universalists. It's not easily dismissed when one knows all the particulars.

This is a pretty good lecture by a well known respected Bible teacher, who is not a universalist.

Just finished watching this. Did you read the first comment on that video?


"At this time in my life this is much needed information. I am a mother and grandmother; within the last 2 years 4 young men between the ages of 20-30 have been killed due to gun violence...I knew these guys personally at some level...[the latest was a week ago just 20yrs old] as for as I know given their life styles they did not have a relationship with Jesus; the thought of any of them suffering FOREVER in hell cuases me great grief ...THE FACT that the Bible provides texts for different views gives me some relief...Thanks for sharing. Will buy his book"

 

[Hmm]

Just finished watching this. Did you read the first comment on that video?


"At this time in my life this is much needed information. I am a mother and grandmother; within the last 2 years 4 young men between the ages of 20-30 have been killed due to gun violence...I knew these guys personally at some level...[the latest was a week ago just 20yrs old] as for as I know given their life styles they did not have a relationship with Jesus; the thought of any of them suffering FOREVER in hell cuases me great grief ...THE FACT that the Bible provides texts for different views gives me some relief...Thanks for sharing. Will buy his book"

What an indictment of the church of today that it made an elderly woman feel that way. It sounds like she's heard the Good News now though.

 

[Water and Fire]

What an indictment of the church of today that it made an elderly woman feel that way. It sounds like she's heard the Good News now though.

There's an important lesson here. For all we know, this woman may have been the most hard-hearted, dyed in the wool, hell fire believing Christian, but God has gotten her to the place where she is at least open to the idea, which is exactly what he needed to do with me.

Reading her comment brought tears to my eyes, and I really wanted to be able to take her in my arms and tell her that everything was going to be alright, but alas.

 

[Hmm]

There's an important lesson here. For all we know, this woman may have been the most hard-hearted, dyed in the wool, hell fire believing Christian, but God has gotten her to the place where she is at least open to the idea, which is exactly what he needed to do with me.

What made you open to he idea, if you don't mind saying?

Reading her comment brought tears to my eyes, and I really wanted to be able to take her in my arms and tell her that everything was going to be alright, but alas.

It sounds like she'll be okay. Now free of the grip of ECT I'm sure she'll continue moving forward.

 

[atpollard]

I see some folks are happy to continue on in their position of smug superiority and innocence and postulating straw men. Oh well.

Sorry chief, I am a Baptist.
We got no dog in the RCC vs Luther fight … we are not part of the Reformation. We just rejected all tradition and started over with the WORD OF GOD and doing what it says.

I just find historic revisionism distasteful. Both sides were not “equally wrong” when one side is selling passes to Heaven and trying to murder anyone that objects.

 

[Water and Fire]

What made you open to he idea, if you don't mind saying?



It sounds like she'll be okay. Now free of the grip of ECT I'm sure she'll continue moving forward.

Simple... I was/am a sinner, and I thought I was going to hell, which made me do some googleing, which lead me to a particular website.

 

[Saint Steven]

Probably! It's very hard to forgive someone who deliberately didn't invite you to their party. It's been a few years since I was last invited to the local Team Hell's annual ball. I used to look forward to the symbolic burning of real-life unbiblical-Christians (subject to availability) but I'm trying very hard to forgive them and I hope to be universally restored to their invitation list soon.

I would recommend that you not RSVP.

Last time I went to one of those they gave me "hell". - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

I just find historic revisionism distasteful. Both sides were not “equally wrong” when one side is selling passes to Heaven and trying to murder anyone that objects.

Nice. - lol
That's a gem right there. Thanks.
Seems like there is a big difference between warm fuzzy and cold fuzzy.

 

[Saint Steven]

I here the music selection ranges from Hell's Bells to Disco Inferno.

This brings up a point to ponder.
They call that stuff the "Devil's music".
If that is true, why is the message the same as what the church preaches? (fear)

 

[Saint Steven]

... the solitary thing that I do know without any doubt though, is that Jesus is the Son of God and He died to pay the penalty for my sins in my place.
That's it, that's the only thing I have 100% surety on.

But isn't that also a debatable doctrine as well? There are differing views on the Atonement.

From my perspective, Jesus died to conquer death. (not to pay for our sins)

 

[Saint Steven]

Salvation is simple to the point that it's hard because people want to make it more complicated. But you have to look at it that if you attach a bunch of rerquirements to it, WHICH of those requirements is the thing that saved you...

Similarly, I often ask, "How are such things measured?"
As soon as you add anything to the finished work of Christ, it causes trouble. And as a Baptist, I imagine that you, or the denomination, has some additional requirements.

 

[Saint Steven]

Simple... I was/am a sinner, and I thought I was going to hell, which made me do some googleing, which lead me to a particular website.

Tell us more. We love real-life testimonies.
A nice reprieve from Bible vs Bible. - lol

 

[Hmm]

From my perspective, Jesus died to conquer death. (not to pay for our sins

I relate to sin as an alienation from God and a missing of the mark (going off target or astray). I often feel separated from God and even more often get things wrong. I don't believe in the Protestant notion of Original Sin, that we are all guilty of the sin commited by others in the garden of Eden and will be held to account for that. That's just silly to me and I much prefer the Orthodox idea of Ancestral Sin - that the sin commited in Eden brought about death for us rather than legalistic guilt. So I agree with you that Jesus died to win over death so that it's no more, but also to bring an end to separation from God and of missing the mark.

 

[Water and Fire]

Tell us more. We love real-life testimonies.
A nice reprieve from Bible vs Bible. - lol

It's really not that interesting, to be honest. God brought me to the place where I thought I was definitely going to hell. I jumped on google to try and find some better understanding of scripture, because God knows, I didn't understand it. I then came across this website: The Gobbledygook Gospel
When I had finished reading through that, I was cautiously optimistic about the whole situation.

After that, I ended up here: Tentmaker – Jesus Christ, the savior of all men, especially those who believe. I Tim. 4:10 ....which was fine, but I never really gelled with that place. Now this was all well and good, and all. I knew there was no such thing as hell, but I still didn't know anything. Knowing what there isn't, isn't the same as know what there is, so I just wandered aimlessly.

My next port of call, was this place: L. Ray Smith - The Lake of Fire - Part 1
Now, I really hit the jackpot with this guy, because he didn't just know what the wasn't, but what there was. I sat there for days, devouring his work. He had scriptures for everything, and I really thought I had the meat of the word, but no... it was just the sincere milk of the word. A well recommended read.

Anyway, after I finished there, I ended up here: Is, Was and Will Be – The Unknown Character of Christ and His Word » Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty
Now, I didn't devour his stuff so readily. I tried to, but I couldn't, because what he was sharing was the meat of the word. His stuff is much more difficult to swallow.

After that, the Lord started opening up the scriptures to me, but recently, much more so. ...And that's it!


I told you it wasn't that interesting!

 

[Der Alte]

@Hmm @Water and Fire
When people concentrate on finding something which sounds good to them, feels good to them and supports their assumptions/presuppositions, more than likely, that is what they will find.

 

[Hmm]

I told you it wasn't that interesting!

It is. I look forward to hearing some of the things you've learnt on your quest.

 

[Saint Steven]

I relate to sin as an alienation from God and a missing of the mark (going off target or astray). I often feel separated from God and even more often get things wrong. I don't believe in the Protestant notion of Original Sin, that we are all guilty of the sin commited by others in the garden of Eden and will be held to account for that. That's just silly to me and I much prefer the Orthodox idea of Ancestral Sin - that the sin commited in Eden brought about death for us rather than legalistic guilt. So I agree with you that Jesus died to win over death so that it's no more, but also to bring an end to separation from God and of missing the mark.

Right.
The penalty for sin was death. Jesus paid that penalty for us.

And to be clear, the death in this case is spiritual, not physical. (obviously) Otherwise no one would have died after the crucifixion.

 

[Saint Steven]

I told you it wasn't that interesting!

Seriously? - lol
I clicked every link except Tentmaker, which I was already familiar with. The main verses I use are to support UR are from that site.
Anyway, thanks for the testimony and the resources.
You are becoming a real asset to the "hell-no" team. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Speaking of resources...
Here's an interesting presentation I just viewed that helps to explain the fuzziness. It's from a Jewish POV.

James Kugel, director of the Institute for the History of the Jewish Bible at Bar Ilan University, argues that the Hebrew Bible was, from the beginning, the Interpreted Bible. In the third and second centuries B.C.E. – well before the last books of the Bible were written – groups of interpreters were puzzling over the stories of Abraham and Sarah, Jacob and Esau, and other ancient figures. Their interpretations were often fanciful, and sometimes wildly inventive, but their grasp of the very idea of the Bible is still with us and continues to influence today’s readers. [6/2013] [Show ID: 24917]