Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[ozso]

I've always liked the old adage that BIBLE is an acronym for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. When it comes to the future (eschatology) and the afterlife, I remember Jesus telling us not to worry about it. To trust that our Father will take good care of His children.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well.. is it so wrong?
Paul would have agreed

1 Corinthians 15

At Paul's level of persecution, he had a point.
But I don't think he would have sided with the majority on the CF topic survey.

 

[Mark Quayle]

@Saint Steven

Well.. is it so wrong?
Paul would have agreed

1 Corinthians 15

The scenario posed isn't as simple as one might think; in fact, if there is no afterlife, there is no Christ, and so it is all a ruse, and an empty 'joy' in this life. In other words, though the question is intended to make one think, or to separate the two components —that of our expected joy-to-come vs the joy of knowing Christ in this life— the question is bogus.

This is what I'm thinking Paul was referring to, concerning the resurrection. It's not that this life is not in itself rewarding enough to pursue Christ; as he says, "For to me to live is Christ".

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jesus was speaking to unconverted Jews before His crucifixion and resurrection. He promised that for those who received Him, the Helper, who is the Holy Spirit, who will be in them, will bring to remembrance all that Jesus taught them and will lead them into all truth. Paul says that eye has not seen nor ear heart the things that God has for us, but they have been clearly revealed. The Holy Spirit does not speak to us in parables. The Apostle John says that the Anointing, the Holy Spirit, will teach us all things.

So, the account of Jesus teaching in parables, is part of the descriptive historical narrative about the life and teaching of Jesus to the unconverted Jews. It does not apply to converted Christian believers, because there is nothing in the text to say that it should be prescriptive to believers who will have the indwelling Holy Spirit on and after the Day of Pentecost.

We need to be careful not to try to apply Biblical text that is not intended to apply directly to us. To say that Jesus is deliberately deceiving us by teaching the Jews in parables is just sheer nonsense and butchering the Scripture text to try to make it mean something that it doesn't.

The tone of what you are saying sounds like you are disagreeing with me —even correcting me— but what you are saying seems to be merely adding to or giving another point of view of the same thing as I am saying. Is it that? Or something else?

 

[Saint Steven]

@Saint Steven


The scenario posed isn't as simple as one might think; in fact, if there is no afterlife, there is no Christ, and so it is all a ruse, and an empty 'joy' in this life. In other words, though the question is intended to make one think, or to separate the two components —that of our expected joy-to-come vs the joy of knowing Christ in this life— the question is bogus.

This is what I'm thinking Paul was referring to, concerning the resurrection. It's not that this life is not in itself rewarding enough to pursue Christ; as he says, "For to me to live is Christ".

I understand that it is hard for us to wrap our head around. This idea of a life with no afterlife. But, between the lines, the question is about whether Christians came to Christ mostly out of fear of the afterlife, (the threat of hell), or because they wanted a healed relationship with God and the benefits in the here and now.

 

[ozso]

I understand that it is hard for us to wrap our head around. This idea of a life with no afterlife. But, between the lines, the question is about whether Christians came to Christ mostly out of fear of the afterlife, (the threat of hell), or because they wanted a healed relationship with God and the benefits in the here and now.

Well we found out from the survey I did and a similar one by someone else, that many said they came to Jesus to escape hell.

Something I can't relate to since I was practically born knowing Jesus.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The tone of what you are saying sounds like you are disagreeing with me —even correcting me— but what you are saying seems to be merely adding to or giving another point of view of the same thing as I am saying. Is it that? Or something else?

All I am doing is reading the actual text and saying who was saying it, and to whom He is saying it. It is historical narrative which describes the life, teaching, death and resurrection of Christ. It is not written to us as prescribed instruction for us. It is written for us, so that we have enough information about Him to enable us to believe and trust in Him for our salvation. Historical narrative is not a reliable basis for Christian doctrine, unless the text states directly that it is.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I understand that it is hard for us to wrap our head around. This idea of a life with no afterlife. But, between the lines, the question is about whether Christians came to Christ mostly out of fear of the afterlife, (the threat of hell), or because they wanted a healed relationship with God and the benefits in the here and now.

Right. I understand the purpose for which the question was meant. But I don't think that is what Paul was addressing.

But like when Job says, I know that my Redeemer lives, he wasn't talking about relief from fear of the afterlife. He was talking about whom he loved and desired. I think that is also what Paul is talking about: That if we don't have Christ, which is represented (so to speak) 'in the afterlife', we have nothing in this life either. He's not saying that this life with Christ is not of itself enough to be worth living.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well we found out from the survey I did and a similar one by someone else, that many said they came to Jesus to escape hell.

Something I can't relate to since I was practically born knowing Jesus.

Yes. That seemed to be the point. And begs the question: Is that salvation?

 

[ozso]

Yes. That seemed to be the point. And begs the question: Is that salvation?

Is it salvation if Jesus is basically just a get out hell free card, ticket to heaven, good luck charm to someone?

People who tithe to pay "fire insurance" falls along the same lines.

I'm sure there have been times when the church said that's exactly what tithing kept them from going to hell.

 

[Hmm]

Yes. That seemed to be the point. And begs the question: Is that salvation?

Is it salvation if Jesus is basically just a get out hell free card, ticket to heaven, good luck charm to someone?

People who tithe to pay "fire insurance" falls along the same lines.

I'm sure there have been times when the church said that's exactly what tithing kept them from going to hell.

Yes, I see salvation as being transformed into the likeness of Christ. I think this a continuing process and there may not be much to show for it in this life. But even if someone had changed even a little bit over the course of their whole lifetime, and had become little less self-centred and a little more thoughtful of others, I would say that that is a sign of salvation. I believe the process is perfected and comes to an end in the next life, for all.

 

[Jamdoc]

At Paul's level of persecution, he had a point.
But I don't think he would have sided with the majority on the CF topic survey.

He said we, not just himself. the fact that Christians in general are to deny themselves worldly pleasures is enough to say if there's not something greater than this life, then we were all wasting our time.

1 Corinthians 15 is a chapter almost entirely about Christ's resurrection, and our own.
and honestly, without salvation, without the promise of eternal life, without the promise of a restored Earth, there is quite simply less to love about God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes. That seemed to be the point. And begs the question: Is that salvation?

The Holy Spirit has all kinds of ways to get people to Christ. He can draw with the bands of love, or He can wave the big stick. Either way, the person ends up believing in Jesus, receiving Him as Saviour. Then as they grow in grace and in the knowledge of God, they gain a deeper understanding of Jesus in the Gospel and their faith moves beyond mere "fire insurance".

Having the knowledge of Jesus almost from birth is a good thing, and obviously as an adult, you believe in Him. So, at some stage in your young life, you realised who this bloke Jesus really is and you decided to put your faith in Him and never looked back since that.

 

[earthmover]

Well ultimately I think the promise of salvation is inseparably connected to why we would love and choose to serve God. So it was a question that was kind of a thought exercise I suppose, but I don't think God would expect us to serve and love Him if all He had for us was this one mortal life on this cursed Earth. Paul seemed to think "if this is it? and we sacrifice what pleasures are available to us just to die and that's all? We're even more miserable than other people"
Cause I mean, Paul's ministry got him lashed and imprisoned and even stoned to near death. If it was just this one life? Yeah Paul would consider himself miserable.

some like to think this is their best life.......and it probably will be.

earthmover

 

[earthmover]

Yes, it is fuzzy by design. It has been done that way, to sort the wheat from the chaff.

It does for the person who dies, if they are a unbeliever!

 

[Jipsah]

I've always liked the old adage that BIBLE is an acronym for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.

That's the sort of thing that prevented me from ever becoming a Baptist. And it's the sort of thing thtat puts people off reading the Bible.
They go, "Ah, here is the Instruction Manual", and start reading it, on page 1 of course, looking for divine inspiration. Along about about the middle of Exodus or so, they realize that they're read a bunch of stories from ancient times and a fair bit of history, all revolving around the relationship between God and the Hebrews. A lot of the stuff they read is just barely credible, if at all, to 21st century minds. Instructions of any kind are scarce to the point of nonexistence, and there's no clue what any of this stuff has to do with Christianity, especially seeing how Christ Himself doesn't show up until a few hundred pages later. All too often the formerly eager reader puts the book down, and in too many cases never picks it up again.

Just me, but I never recommend that anyone read the Old Testament unless they're completely checked out on the Gospels, and understand the basic premises of the Faith. Studying a catechism with good cross references, preferably with the aid of a good catechist, couldn't hurt.

 

[Saint Steven]

He said we, not just himself. the fact that Christians in general are to deny themselves worldly pleasures is enough to say if there's not something greater than this life, then we were all wasting our time.

If denying ourselves "worldly pleasures" is misery, why do it? Does God want us to be miserable? Is that the abundant life he promised?

 

[Saint Steven]

The Holy Spirit has all kinds of ways to get people to Christ. He can draw with the bands of love, or He can wave the big stick. Either way, the person ends up believing in Jesus, receiving Him as Saviour. Then as they grow in grace and in the knowledge of God, they gain a deeper understanding of Jesus in the Gospel and their faith moves beyond mere "fire insurance".

Having the knowledge of Jesus almost from birth is a good thing, and obviously as an adult, you believe in Him. So, at some stage in your young life, you realised who this bloke Jesus really is and you decided to put your faith in Him and never looked back since that.

I call the "fire insurance" spiritual extortion. Believe or burn.

 

[Jamdoc]

some like to think this is their best life.......and it probably will be.

earthmover

Yeah and I think that people who say "sure I'd be a Christian even without salvation and the promise of eternal life and restoration of all creation" may be in that kind of camp, and maybe aren't denying themselves and taking up their cross. Jesus didn't promise a life in this world of blessings He promised tribulation and burdens and self denial.... BUT.. that great would be their reward in heaven and in the resurrection.

although He was definitely fuzzy about what those rewards would be, aside from eternal life itself.
Just that we would be with Him, we would have fullness of joy, and that He is preparing a place for us.

Jesus was NOT fuzzy however, about punishment. There's no fuzziness in Jesus' teaching about eternal conscious torment.
He was unambiguously not promoting universalism, straight is the gate and narrow is the way, He IS the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes to the Father but through Him. He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
He was unambiguously teaching that it would be suffering. Wailing and gnashing of teeth. In hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, tormented in this flame.
and He was unambiguous that it would be forever, where the worm dies not and the fire is never quenched, depart into everlasting fire prepared for Satan and his angels.
Everlasting, never quenched. Fire, wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Jesus was as fire and brimstone of a preacher as they come.

Paul was a softy compared to Jesus on how he preached, and Paul was still no Joel Osteen. Paul talked about sin even if he didn't talk about hell.

If denying ourselves "worldly pleasures" is misery, why do it? Does God want us to be miserable? Is that the abundant life he promised?

We do it because sin is pleasurable only for a season, but then brings death and destruction, and eternally at that. What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

We do it because Jesus promises that great is our reward in heaven.... not this world. In this world we have tribulation.

 

[Jamdoc]

That's the sort of thing that prevented me from ever becoming a Baptist. And it's the sort of thing thtat puts people off reading the Bible.
They go, "Ah, here is the Instruction Manual", and start reading it, on page 1 of course, looking for divine inspiration. Along about about the middle of Exodus or so, they realize that they're read a bunch of stories from ancient times and a fair bit of history, all revolving around the relationship between God and the Hebrews. A lot of the stuff they read is just barely credible, if at all, to 21st century minds. Instructions of any kind are scarce to the point of nonexistence, and there's no clue what any of this stuff has to do with Christianity, especially seeing how Christ Himself doesn't show up until a few hundred pages later. All too often the formerly eager reader puts the book down, and in too many cases never picks it up again.

Just me, but I never recommend that anyone read the Old Testament unless they're completely checked out on the Gospels, and understand the basic premises of the Faith. Studying a catechism with good cross references, preferably with the aid of a good catechist, couldn't hurt.

The old testament is important and the new testament should be taken in context OF the old testament, but I think that starting with the new testament, at least the gospels could be wise, if first you have to learn specifically about Jesus and then want to know EVERYTHING about Him in the bible that you reach back into the old testament to put together how He was foretold.

although that said, it can also be wise to start in Genesis, THEN go to the 4 Gospels. Because understanding the fall and where we came from, does put into context our need for Jesus and why the gospels are important.
But I can definitely see people wearing out by the time they get to Leviticus, I struggle with rereading it.
To be honest I've tried rereading from Genesis and... I hung up on Numbers, and went back to what I do normally now which is, skip around the book reading sections as needed. I've read it all the way through before a few times, so at this point I let myself get prompted by the Spirit to read. Actually the times I feel most fulfilled in my bible reading, is when a question arises here, I think on the question, and I get prompted to go to a section of scripture, I don't even know exactly what that scripture says or how it's going to answer the question at hand but it has led to rather profound revelations in a way that reading from start to finish never has. If I were to open up Numbers and continue on ... I'd feel like I wasn't getting anything out of it.. a bunch of stuff that is just not applicable to what I need for right now.

But if a question comes up and I get prompted to a section of scripture.... it's always exactly what I need.

The fact that you ARE prompted, with specific books, specific chapters, and, not even having memorized what was in that chapter, and it's exactly what you need... is one of those things that reaffirms that you're in Christ and the Spirit is with you and the Spirit is doing what Jesus said the Spirit would do, teach you, and bring to remembrance His words. John 14:26